Say What ?

[jasonc]

im not against the church taking that role. just stating that its bad exegesis to make that case of the church today is too based on that view of tithing. we don't tithe that literally I don't bring sheep to the church, to be offered for food or to the lord. or to worship. we do it with money.

 

[Kenny_ms]

I don't give to "A" Church Jason. I give to the Lord, and He comes first. A Pastor ought to tithe, whatever portion is considered his. Not only that, but His church should tithe back the tenth of what comes in before the Pastor gets a dime. It's not about amounts.

I quoted a passage that says what you say there is not true and if it is not true and you don't mind my saying so, it is a lie.

If it is not a lie, give us good hard scripture to back it up please? And please, don't, for instance, turn a bargain Jacob and God made in to something it's not to explain why what you want the Bible to mean is what it means.

When you say something like Not only that, but His church should tithe back the tenth of what comes in before the Pastor gets a dime. you need to back it up with something solid and not something twisted that you think we will just buy because Brother Mike says it's so. Why "should" they?

Remember what I said about us clashing? What you have done on this thread is one of the big reasons for that. If nothing else, take the tiny step and see how serious what you are doing here is and maybe move on from there.

 

[Brother Mike]

so why did god change from having field gleaned for the poor to having the Pharisees tithe and give to the poor? show me where the levites were to give to the poor daily? where is the command? it says under moses that the rich with fields were to leave the corners of the field for the poor.

jesus address giving to the temple as that was custom of the Pharisees under oral law. nothing bad. just done. that was to upkeep the temple and to do what they see fit. that isn't called tithing but really tzaddik. which means in the Hebrew righteousness funny aint it. to do that is do what? demonstrate the heart of god.

yet in the book of malachi there is no change of the LAW. don't read into the bible anything that it doesn't say and it doesn't say what the tithes were to be used for to my knowledge save for offerings were commanded and to be given to the temple/tabernacle. nothing that I recall that the priest were to care for the poor the people were!

The command and main commission was to go out into the World, and preach the gospel to every creature. Now many in the World do not value the Word, and would love to see every church just become a center for humanitarian needs.

Nothing was said to give out of the church to the poor. The church though is not a Old testament Temple. Something should be going back out to others to preach the gospel at least.

Jesus, the Head of the Church constantly gave to the poor. In fact they did not get to much excited when they thought Judas was out handing away all their money to the poor. Judas even thought the oil dumped on Jesus feet was wasted because it could have been sold, and given to the poor. (We know Judas had other motives)

The Order is not to give to the poor, but to preach the gospel. Now if the Lord directs, then start the project he said start, that just might be a food pantry for the poor.

I quoted a passage that says what you say there is not true and if it is not true and you don't mind my saying so, it is a lie.

If it is not a lie, give us good hard scripture to back it up please? And please, don't, for instance, turn a bargain Jacob and God made in to something it's not to explain why what you want the Bible to mean is what it means.

When you say something like Not only that, but His church should tithe back the tenth of what comes in before the Pastor gets a dime. you need to back it up with something solid and not something twisted that you think we will just buy because Brother Mike says it's so. Why "should" they?

Remember what I said about us clashing? What you have done on this thread is one of the big reasons for that. If nothing else, take the tiny step and see how serious what you are doing here is and maybe move on from there.

We clash, because you don't pay attention, and don't want to learn anything. You want the scripture that says priest should tithe? What are you asking here?

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
(Mat 23:23)

What I said, churches should give back out something, A tithe is only 10% which is not much, and what I suggested.

The Church of Corinth gave much more than just a 10%
Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;) Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God. For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God; Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men; And by their prayer for you, which long after you for the exceeding grace of God in you. Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.
(2Co 9:10-15)

The Church of Philippians
Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only. For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity. Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account. But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.
(Php 4:15-18)

I gave you scripture where the priest who were paid in tithes and offerings gave a tenth back, and scripture that 2 NT churches sent out provision.

I can't be a concordance. download e-sword, it comes with one and a KJV bible.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Gentlemen,
Is all of this lack of tolerance Christian? Are some here so bold as to tell me I cannot open my billfold and allow God to take as He wants or am I so mighty that I can demand you pay, say, 25% of your gross? The Tithe is a matter that is not best, no, it is a matter that must be left between our Lord and His own. What the LORD has for me is not what the LORD has for you nor visa versa.

Recently one commented that he felt like I was blowing myself up but that is what I said were true it made him feel as though he had not done enough for God... foolishness. If I lie and repent not of it, I will go to Hell but what the LORD our Lord has lead me to do is what I have done, not under my power but under His. If anyone tries to match me, they are living in intentional sin. If any does what the LORD says to do they are living for God and will not die the second death.

It looks as though all have taken their focus off of the goal in this string.

 

[Kenny_ms]

We clash, because you don't pay attention, and don't want to learn anything. You want the scripture that says priest should tithe? What are you asking here?

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
(Mat 23:23)

No, the problem is I AM paying attention, we are talking money here, right? but you slipped right past that and hoped you could get by with something else....again, after what I just told you you were doing and then you attempt to blame me because I'm not paying attention. And BTW, don't all those spices go bad after a time? Do you freeze them?

The Church of Corinth gave much more than just a 10%

You are skirting the issue, Mike, that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. you can't make this go away with tricks.

The Church of Philippians

No, Mike, that paragraph still proves nothing of what you claim is true? Nothing even close.

Here is the issue and again I give you an example of what you are saying and it's a good example because it's exactly what you said...it's a quote and it is about money, not spices:

Not only that, but His church should tithe back the tenth of what comes in before the Pastor gets a dime.

Hey, man, I'm not judging you here at all, I just know that I would want to know if I was saying something that simply was not true. You clearly refuse to see what's right in front of you, and precisely what you are doing to defend it with. Reread what you gave me when I asked you for solid scripture and see how irrelevant it is. I'm just trying to get you to honestly open your mind here and see. You really don't want to be known as someone who twists the Bible, do you? I'm sure you don't, so I just don't get why you do this? Is it pride and you just have to be right? Or is it you've believed this way for so long it has become fact to you? Or maybe it's something I'm missing?

Anyway, there ya go, hope it doesn't anger you too much and that you might at least consider taking another look now that you see how in your last post even, you are drawing conclusion with non existent evidence, just because you want it to be true, I guess. I say that because I'd hate to think you want it to be fact because it brings in more dollars than giving what you want/what you can.

And I really do hope you are not telling folks they are cursed if they don't give their 10%, that's a favorite among some real bad people. You decide whether that is really biblical for giving money to the church and once you draw your conclusion, all I ask is you think of what God might think of any of us if we were preaching that and it was actually not true. I'd be scared of what he might think of me.

 

[Brother Mike]

No, the problem is I AM paying attention, we are talking money here, right? but you slipped right past that and hoped you could get by with something else....again, after what I just told you you were doing and then you attempt to blame me because I'm not paying attention. And BTW, don't all those spices go bad after a time? Do you freeze them?



You are skirting the issue, Mike, that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. you can't make this go away with tricks.



No, Mike, that paragraph still proves nothing of what you claim is true? Nothing even close.

Here is the issue and again I give you an example of what you are saying and it's a good example because it's exactly what you said...it's a quote and it is about money, not spices:

Not only that, but His church should tithe back the tenth of what comes in before the Pastor gets a dime.

Hey, man, I'm not judging you here at all, I just know that I would want to know if I was saying something that simply was not true. You clearly refuse to see what's right in front of you, and precisely what you are doing to defend it with. Reread what you gave me when I asked you for solid scripture and see how irrelevant it is. I'm just trying to get you to honestly open your mind here and see. You really don't want to be known as someone who twists the Bible, do you? I'm sure you don't, so I just don't get why you do this? Is it pride and you just have to be right? Or is it you've believed this way for so long it has become fact to you? Or maybe it's something I'm missing?

Anyway, there ya go, hope it doesn't anger you too much and that you might at least consider taking another look now that you see how in your last post even, you are drawing conclusion with non existent evidence, just because you want it to be true, I guess. I say that because I'd hate to think you want it to be fact because it brings in more dollars to preach that over give what you want/what you can.

And I really do hope you are not telling folks they are cursed if they don't give their 10%, that's a favorite among some real bad people. You decide whether that is really biblical for giving money to the church and once you draw your conclusion, all I ask is you think of what God might thing of any of us if we were preaching that and it was actually not true. I'd be scared of what he might think of me.

Well, I don't twist scriptures. I quote them. Now is this about us having to tithe, or the church?

I am not going to repeat what I already said. I already covered Robbery, what God said, How God never said it's not stealing.

Every single believer I know, uses and trust in Proverbs. They act as if Proverbs is for today.

Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase: So shall thy barns be filled with plenty, and thy presses shall burst out with new wine.
(Pro 3:9-10)

You honor the Lord with giving him a portion of your substance first. Check comes in, you figure out what the Lord gets before anything else. You don't give what is left over.

If you do that, he will be the one filling the barns.

I want my barns full, I will not run out.

Mike.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Every single believer I know, uses and trust in Proverbs. They act as if Proverbs is for today.

Preach it Brother Mike! AMEN! The problem is that the New Testament and New Covenant Christians have had their ears tickled by liars that understand the formulation of Propaganda all to well. And now they are ready to near ready to deny the truth because that is not what a preacher or a teacher teach.

 

[Brother Mike]

Preach it Brother Mike! AMEN! The problem is that the New Testament and New Covenant Christians have had their ears tickled by liars that understand the formulation of Propaganda all to well. And now they are ready to near ready to deny the truth because that is not what a preacher or a teacher teach.

Thank you Bill.

Despite me being the "Revised" generation of Word Of Faith Teaching. I personally tithe, but I don't believe tithing to be a NT command to believers.

My reason is that though Jesus spoke to the religious leaders to tithe, and have judgement and mercy while tithing. He never mentioned it to His disciples. We only have a small part of what Jesus said, hand picked by the Holy Spirit as something the World must know.

Paul never one time told any of his churches they best get on the ball and start getting those tithes in. Paul talked about supply the ministry and giving from the heart.

Despite that, God said if you will give me the 10th of your increase, I will bless it. In Hebrews Jesus still receives the tithe. Abraham tithed and Jacob tithed all God did for him.

God will receive the tithe, and it has to be a heart thing and honor thing by faith. God will also do what He said if you tithe, and give him back a portion of all that He has done for you.

Not a command, but something I encourage every believe to check their heart, and examine the scripture for themselves about.

Blessings.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I don't give to "A" Church Jason. I give to the Lord, and He comes first. A Pastor ought to tithe, whatever portion is considered his. Not only that, but His church should tithe back the tenth of what comes in before the Pastor gets a dime. It's not about amounts.

Right now we support a food pantry, shop with a cop, Salvation Army. We also send lots of money to other churches. That is how it should be. God can help people through the church.

Looking at some names that are well known, and claim God does not want you broke, are struggling right now. They keep what comes in, nothing if little is going back out.



I wish I was one of those "YOU" rich people. My example of Abraham is Valid, and God never changes, God never said don't tithe.

And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God: And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
(Gen 28:20-22)

This is before the law. You think God changed any here? Jacob had no command to tithe, but He had spiritual sense that all the God gave him, God would get the tenth of it back.

God has not changed one bit.

Jacob came out pretty well, if you keep reading.

I lost my Job last year. Felony conviction, Work History, age, whatever you want to call it, it's been hard finding a Job. I did tithe though.

Now my car payment was due, rent due, power due.

I have not asked one person for money, I went to God and reminded Him I tithed, and YOU promised to open the window of heaven, and as Jacob said to you, take care of me.

Someone went in our bank and paid off our car. Never mentioned it to anyone.
Money has come in for a full year to pay the rent every single month.
Someone paid off our power bill, we don't know who. It's up to date right now.
My wife's parents called us to let us know they paid rent for July.

My son, said he felt led to pay our internet bill.

Supernatural provision.

You know what though, when I had the money, more than once if God asked for it, I would empty my account, give all my bill money to the person He said give it. I have never kept a thing from the Lord.

When I built my super 6x core computer, awesome computer, the Lord asked me to sow it. Hard as it was, I sowed it.

My wife's 1,200 dollar dining table, some other girl, a believer just loved that Table. She did not have much, and the Lord spoke to us. give her the Table, all the chairs. We obeyed, though we saved for a long time to get our dream dining table.

Now go do the things I have done, then come back and post that we should not tithe.

I can see you have gone through a lot and it's wonderful that you glorify God and testify to your trust in God for all things.
One problem, I can give many similar testimonies of the trials I've gone through with similar results.
And I do not tithe.
I won't even try to tithe.
10% is not a starting point nor an ending point for me.
What I give, I give in cash always.
It is between me and God.
And he must be pleased with it, as he gets me through every trial every time.
To his glory, amen.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

There seems to be some belief in this thread that following Old Testament Laws is what God wants and expects from his church today.
There are many teachings in the New Testament on giving.
Tithes, offerings, sacrifices, and first fruits are not the order of the day.
They are now examples of giving for us, who are filled with the Holy Spirit, to use as a guideline in our giving.

One verse above others stands out to me.
I never heard it preached in my 30 years at church to this day.
It is 1 Timothy 5:8;
"If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever".

Now here is an example.
My daughter lives 1500 miles away.
She is in dire straights financially.
She asks me for help.
What should I do?
"Sorry dear, the only money I have is the 10% I have to give to church. I suggest you go to your church and beg for some help".
And she responds, "But I already have and they said they don't have a benevolence fund".

Why?
Is it because they have to pay a large mortgage for their fancy building along with big administrative costs to keep it up?
Could it be because they have to pay their pastors salaries, health benefits, life insurance, housing allowance, expense account and a pension fund?

Where does all that come into play with why we should be giving our money to the local church when there are always people in need of help?
Sure, some churches may know how to handle all these situations effectively, but most don't.

My response to my daughter is this: "Don't worry dear, I will send you all that I have and the church can go without".
End of story.

 

[Brother Mike]

I can see you have gone through a lot and it's wonderful that you glorify God and testify to your trust in God for all things.
One problem, I can give many similar testimonies of the trials I've gone through with similar results.
And I do not tithe.
I won't even try to tithe.
10% is not a starting point nor an ending point for me.
What I give, I give in cash always.
It is between me and God.
And he must be pleased with it, as he gets me through every trial every time.
To his glory, amen.

If you read my post above, you will see that Tithing is not in my opinion a NT command. Paul said give out of a cheerful heart, and I believe God must be first in your life and thought of first when you get some money.

I have given way beyond 10% but I don't give less, and God gets first cut.

Now if you give out of a good heart, and God is first, then of course you get supernatural provision.

My first comment was that if a Pastor teaches that tithing is a law, then He should also make sure his church gives 10% back out before He gets paid what is owned and He himself should be giving 10% back to God if He says it's a law for his church goers.

This was according to the article.

 

[Kenny_ms]

Despite me being the "Revised" generation of Word Of Faith Teaching. I personally tithe, but I don't believe tithing to be a NT command to believers.

This whole thing could have been avoided had you said that because it didn't sound at all like that's what you believed, if it's what you believed.

Either way....that's good.

 

[Brother Mike]

This whole thing could have been avoided had you said that because it didn't sound at all like that's what you believed, if it's what you believed.

Either way....that's good.

I only responded to the Article. I actually read the whole article. If a Pastor is going to enforce tithing by some law, then He should by what He enforces in others out of his Church give back 10% of the same, and tithe himself. Since we are not under a law, then His actions toward his own people without the law, should be the same He practices.

I see nothing wrong with tithing, and God will bless it as promised, if a person on their own come to that conclusion to tithe. If a Pastor preaches tithing as a law, then He should practice out of his own church funds what he preaches to others.

 

[Kenny_ms]

My response to my daughter is this: "Don't worry dear, I will send you all that I have and the church can go without".
End of story.

Some might say to that...in saying the Church can do without, you are saying God can do without, but in light of how you describe this Church with so many Churches today being like that, the way you state it is very appropriate.

If God does reside in certain Churches today, he just barely does.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Some might say to that...in saying the Church can do without, you are saying God can do without, but in light of how you describe this Church with so many Churches today being like that, the way you state it is very appropriate.

If God does reside in certain Churches today, he just barely does.

No church building with high priced pastors should take priority over loving one another.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Thank you Bill.

Despite me being the "Revised" generation of Word Of Faith Teaching. I personally tithe, but I don't believe tithing to be a NT command to believers.

My reason is that though Jesus spoke to the religious leaders to tithe, and have judgement and mercy while tithing. He never mentioned it to His disciples. We only have a small part of what Jesus said, hand picked by the Holy Spirit as something the World must know.

Paul never one time told any of his churches they best get on the ball and start getting those tithes in. Paul talked about supply the ministry and giving from the heart.

Despite that, God said if you will give me the 10th of your increase, I will bless it. In Hebrews Jesus still receives the tithe. Abraham tithed and Jacob tithed all God did for him.

God will receive the tithe, and it has to be a heart thing and honor thing by faith. God will also do what He said if you tithe, and give him back a portion of all that He has done for you.

Not a command, but something I encourage every believe to check their heart, and examine the scripture for themselves about.

Blessings.

If you don't mind a loud mouthed charismatic leaning old Baptist AMENing that I'll do it once more for this post, AMEN!! I made a fifteen hundred Faith Pledge, to be paid over six months becausedI and my wife, both, were instructed to give fifteen hundred. We were soon called into ministry at another Chur4ch, in another city but that Church was being overruled by two Deacons, brothers, and one of them told me I was a fool to make a pledge of money not, already, in my pocket.

I can see you have gone through a lot and it's wonderful that you glorify God and testify to your trust in God for all things.
One problem, I can give many similar testimonies of the trials I've gone through with similar results.
And I do not tithe.
I won't even try to tithe.
10% is not a starting point nor an ending point for me.
What I give, I give in cash always.
It is between me and God.
And he must be pleased with it, as he gets me through every trial every time.
To his glory, amen.

Both positions are, in my opinion, inside the pail of Holiness. Sort of what you call banana, I call nanner situation. As I read it, as long as we give out of our hearts and not of requirement, it glorifies our LORD.

 

[th1b.taylor]

No church building with high priced pastors should take priority over loving one another.

AMEN! God lives in the hearts of men and it is those men that compose tje Church God will take out of here, He could care less about some building, no matter how many Talents of Gold were spent, incorrectly, to build it. The Crystal Palace in California come, immediately to mind.

 

[Lewis]

Is Tithing For Today ?
http://biblicalstewardship.net/tag/is-tithing-for-today/

 

[Deborah13]

im not against the church taking that role. just stating that its bad exegesis to make that case of the church today is too based on that view of tithing. we don't tithe that literally I don't bring sheep to the church, to be offered for food or to the lord. or to worship. we do it with money.

The principle of tithing by the law just isn't in the NT. We are to give by faith just like everything else we do.
In the OT Law, people who made money in other professions, that were not agricultural, did not tithe. So why didn't they?

 

[Lewis]

Acts 5 New King James Version (NKJV)
Lying to the Holy Spirit
5 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

5 Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. 6 And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him.

7 Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter answered her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?”

She said, “Yes, for so much.”

9 Then Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” 10 Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband. 11 So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.