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[_ Old Earth _] 'Science & education should be subject to democracy'

  • Thread starter Thread starter MrVersatile48
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MrVersatile48

Guest
Interesting points raised here by Chuck Colson for you to network:-

____________________________
BreakPoint with Charles Colson
http://www.breakpoint.org
5/15/2006

Science and Democracy
What Scientists Can't Tell Us


When a U.S. district court ruled last December that the Dover,
Pennsylvania, school district could not require the teaching of intelligent
design in public schools, opponents of intelligent design thought the issue
had been settled - not just in Pennsylvania, but also across the entire
country.

Well, their celebrations may have been premature, unless school
policies are somehow exempted from the requirements of democracy.


Virginia Commonwealth University recently released the results of its "Life
Sciences Survey," which measures public attitudes toward scientific issues.
Among the issues asked about was the "origin of biological life."

By nearly a 5-1 margin, people believe that God, either "directly" or by
guiding the process, was responsible for the "origin of biological life."
Only 15 percent agreed with teaching a strictly materialistic explanation.


Most Americans, you see, favor a "pluralistic approach to teaching about origin of life in public schools." In this "pluralistic approach,"
sometimes called "teaching the controversy," students would be exposed to
various explanations.


These polling results cause weeping and gnashing of teeth among doctrinaire Darwinists, who see it as evidence of irrationality or superstition among ordinary Americans. Some even suggest that America's leadership in science and technology is threatened by these "unscientific" attitudes.

Nonsense!

What's on display is not irrationality or disdain for science: It's simply a reflection of the innate human understanding of God - what
theologians call the imago Dei. Years of propaganda by scientists and
teachers can't erase it, and it's also a recognition of the limits of
science.

Father Richard Neuhaus captured this in the March issue of First Things.
The "controversy," he wrote, "is composed of a complex mixture of science,
religion, culture, and politics."

This "complex mixture," which involves every aspect of human life, cannot be settled by a single judge's opinion or by the Darwinists' propaganda. People simply know better, and they want to have a say in how their children are educated.

This is true not only of intelligent design. The same dynamic is at work in
the embryonic stem-cell research debate. The scientific establishment
insists that it must operate without interference from those it deems
"irrational," like Christians it considers enemies of progress.

Yet 56 percent in the same survey agreed that "scientific research doesn't
pay enough attention to the moral values of society." Fifty-two percent
agreed that this research creates as many problems as solutions. For a
group aspiring to god-like status, like scientists, this is bad news.


But it cannot be otherwise. Science does not operate independently of the larger culture. Scientists are not exempt from, as Neuhaus puts it, paying their respects to democracy. Thinking otherwise is not science: It is
scientism, the ideology that regards science as the only way to the truth.
And if this survey is any indication, Americans don't buy it.


That's why debates over science and culture will continue. They will
continue until the scientific establishment - and the courts - acknowledge the
limits of what science can and cannot tell us, and when it begins to give a
say to the people on how they want their children educated
.


Forward this email to a friend
 
I'm somewhat lukewarm to the prospect that scientific truth should be subjected to a popular vote. Especially when the average person is so bewilderingly ignorant of basic scientific principles.

Popular vote is for deciding whether you want to spend more money on building a park or fixing your potholes; it's not for deciding whether or not the Earth revolves around the sun.
 
I totall agree artguy..

Well, actually..

If we did this "let democract choose" thing, then, Bush wouldn't have been in office the first time, Or the second time, and, we would most liekly haev evaded soem of the horrible things done to this country..

Is it still worth not teaching people science?
ehhh. It depends how much you value the intelligence of human life, or the 2k+ american lives, and 70K + iraqi lives.....
 
since

Since when does it make sense to determine facts based on public opinion?
We are in big trouble if they are seriously contemplating this. This isn't about winning , this is about truth and evidence of which the ID'rs still have nothing but opinion. They continue the fight not because it's right but because to them it's more than that. To admit defeat would mean that they have truly built their house on shifting sand.What difference does it or should it matter what is taught about creation to the ID'rs? If they are right God is not going to condemn anyone because the science class got it wrong and they still get a shot at everlasting life. So what big deal is it really to the ID'rs if they are confident in their beliefs? I think we all know the answer to that.
 
Well, some Christians are of a mind that if you accept evolution, then you're not a real Christian, and you're going to burn in the fiery pits of hell. So to them, it's about more than just winning. To many, though... yeah, it's just about spiting secular (read: real) science.
 
That's what we've been missing, all we have to do is hold a referendum on the law of gravity! Or perhaps censure nonlinear equations for divergence.
 
If every person but you believed that if you throw a rock into the ocean it will float, then you went out and threw a rock into the ocean (And what do you know , it sank) then you'd still have to teach that rocks float.

This is why you can't let democracy into science, believing something doesn't change how it works (Which is all science is trying to find out and that's all the subject of science is trying to teach).

I have no problem with teaching that God created the universe as an alternate theory, just not in science class.
 
Should we let scientists decide what to believe?
Well, maybe we should let politicians tell us what to believe. We have to think for ourselves. How dare these scientists with their fancy education and lab coats tell us what is what. Have you ever listened to Hank Hanegraaff's show on the radio - the Bible Answer Man? Now Hank knows the bible inside and out, and he said that no way no how is evolution compatible with christianity. In fact, anybody I know that really knows the bible will tell you the same. So why should I dispute people who are fluent in the Word of God?

I think there SHOULD be a vote on the issue of evolution. Let the PEOPLE decide what to believe and what to teach our children. I know what Hank would say.
 
spreadingtheword said:
Should we let scientists decide what to believe?

...should we let experts in their field who devote their professional life to research and experimentation in their aspect of choice tell us what they discover so that it can be taught to students in said field after the proper peer reviewing process? I'm gonna go with yes.

As an aside I'd rather have a blind parapalegic deaf mute tell me what to believe or what's what when compared to a politician.
 
moniker said:
spreadingtheword said:
Should we let scientists decide what to believe?

...should we let experts in their field who devote their professional life to research and experimentation in their aspect of choice tell us what they discover so that it can be taught to students in said field after the proper peer reviewing process? I'm gonna go with yes.

As an aside I'd rather have a blind parapalegic deaf mute tell me what to believe or what's what when compared to a politician.

I believe that when it comes to creating theories, the only experts are politicians. Now in the area of truth-----that is an entirely different matter.
 
Science doesn't deal in absolute truth.

It deals with the closest thing to reality.
 
Nooj said:
Science doesn't deal in absolute truth.

It deals with the closest thing to reality.

Well, if scientists are all in agreement with that, then I cannot see why there is any problem presenting either Creation Flood theory or Intelligent Design....
 
LittleNipper said:
Nooj said:
Science doesn't deal in absolute truth.

It deals with the closest thing to reality.

Well, if scientists are all in agreement with that, then I cannot see why there is any problem presenting either Creation Flood theory or Intelligent Design....

Because those are theology and/or philosophy. Not a problem to have them taught at school, just not in a science class.
 
ArtGuy said:
I'm somewhat lukewarm to the prospect that scientific truth should be subjected to a popular vote. Especially when the average person is so bewilderingly ignorant of basic scientific principles.

.

So what? Sod so called scientific principles, which have their place as slaves, not masters of a Christian majority. The people in South Africa were mostly black, and they got to vote. Some minority may not have liked blacks. Tough. People in a country who want children to have prayer, and God taught, and creation need majority rights as well. Basic science principles are well and good. Where they are applied to the past, and held up as greater than the bible's different past, they are just beliefs, nothing else.
The question is NOT science, but in why science as we know it must apply to our past. That is a question you will never answer. Meanwhile, let the majority beliefs rule supreme, and let the white robes of science stick to the fishbowl, and stop pushing the majority and their children around.
 
What a spectacular rant. Tell me dad, if the majority of Americans believed that the Sun revolved around the Earth, would you teach this alternate 'theory' in a science class?

Or do we trust the scientists and their scientific expertise in their own scientific fields.
 
People in a country who want children to have prayer, and God taught, and creation need majority rights as well.

They are free to do this. As long as the Bill of Rights exists, they are not able to force their religious opinions on others.

The question is NOT science, but in why science as we know it must apply to our past. That is a question you will never answer.

As you learned earlier, we can tell about things like the speed of light from the eyes of fossil arthropods. And that's just one of innumerable ways we can do that.

Meanwhile, let the majority beliefs rule supreme,

You'll have to find another country, if you want that. The founders deliberately made it impossible for the majority to take the rights of others.

Incidentally, almost all polls show that YE creationism is a minority viewpoint. And over the years, it's become more so.

Be careful what you wish for...
 
The Barbarian said:
They are free to do this. As long as the Bill of Rights exists, they are not able to force their religious opinions on others.
The majority is free to say no to old age opinion and belief being forced on them! Also, the bill of rights seems like it was not meant to stop children from learning about God, or saying the Lord's prayer in school. They did that for many years after the bill, just fine. What it is is a hijacking of the intents of older laws to fit an Anti Christ anti God agenda!


[quote:b5515]As you learned earlier, we can tell about things like the speed of light from the eyes of fossil arthropods. And that's just one of innumerable ways we can do that.
This is a very far from the truth. I learned you make silly hit and run statements, with big empty claims. That is all.


You'll have to find another country, if you want that. The founders deliberately made it impossible for the majority to take the rights of others.
Teaching about God, and simple prayer is not taking anyone's rights, it is a majority right. It's about time the minorities, (most of whom would not mind at all, so don't say you speak for them)pay attention to the rights of parents to train up a child in the way he should go.

Incidentally, almost all polls show that YE creationism is a minority viewpoint. And over the years, it's become more so.
In the US, most people believe there was a flood, I think, from one recent poll I read. Most people believe in God as well. No one says we need to indoctrinate kids in flood geology here. But neither should they be terrorized by being taught there is no God, or hope, or afterlife, or creation, etc!
We don't need lectures on some baseless dream past that cannot be evidenced that sees some dark Godless origin. Give the kids real science that deals with the known present.

Be careful what you wish for...
[/quote:b5515]
Not much wishing involved, the knowledge of the Lord will fill the earth, as waters cover the seas. No man anywhere will say 'know the Lord' then, cause all will know Him.
You old agers who preach suns that will burn out, and no spiritual, afterlife, God, or eternity ought to be careful what you wish for.

Mt 18:6 - But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

definition of OFFEND

"to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way, upon which another may trip and fall, metaph. to offend
to entice to sin
to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey
to cause to fall away "

http://www.studylight.org/isb/view.cgi?number=4624

Those who claim to believe in God, and Jesus better understand how Jesus feels about this. Those who do not, be warned.
 
The Barbarian said:
People in a country who want children to have prayer, and God taught, and creation need majority rights as well.

They are free to do this. As long as the Bill of Rights exists, they are not able to force their religious opinions on others.

[quote:01479]The question is NOT science, but in why science as we know it must apply to our past. That is a question you will never answer.

As you learned earlier, we can tell about things like the speed of light from the eyes of fossil arthropods. And that's just one of innumerable ways we can do that.

Meanwhile, let the majority beliefs rule supreme,

You'll have to find another country, if you want that. The founders deliberately made it impossible for the majority to take the rights of others.

Incidentally, almost all polls show that YE creationism is a minority viewpoint. And over the years, it's become more so.

Be careful what you wish for...[/quote:01479]

No one is suggesting that anyone can force anyone to believe anything. The reality is that reading the Bible openly, does not make people either Christian or religious in and of itself. I do feel that Bible reading in Public Institutions is challenging, thought provoking, and intellectually stimulating. There is no one who can say honestly, that they do not wish those sorts of attributes promoted in public education. It also builds even among non-believers, an appreciation for manors and respect for standards and faith of others. The reason creationism has become a minority viewpoint is because only evolutionary theory is shown respect. This is not as it should be... Such respect deserves to be reciprocated and then the public at large will better understand that inclusion and exclusion are not truly any indicator of truth vs. fable....
 
I am strongly against teaching theology as science, and vice a versa. I would also be upset if they taught english in math, and woodworking in health. They do not belong together, but are, essentially, important things.

The day that my child goes to a public school and is forced to learn about how "God" made things, in science, is the day that I will have a long talk with the school, and either require them to teach about the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or drop creationism.

I also enjoy the invisible pink unicorn :-P

http://www.venganza.org
 
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