Scriptural proof that Jesus was NOT "fully God"

[smaller]

Oh come on smaller. Talk some sense and answer the question.

COULD HE have sinned?

(It's in blue, so you can read it).

Yes or no will do nicely.

I have coined a little ditty that sums up what I understand about God.

All things serve The Maker of all things.

And that would include your idle speculations as well. So do yer service! My preference is for fruitful engagements.

s

 

[Sparkey]

Jesus is God With Us

Was anybody else like me when they were small? My mother was brilliant. She was born in 1917 and graduated university (when very few women were educated beyond High School) to pursue her career as a nurse while she raised 5 children. So much of my love for science came from her but the downside of having a brilliant mom was that for the first part of my life and throughout my childhood I wanted to win an argument (with her) and couldn't.

The desire to "win" an argument (any argument) and thereby prove myself became so great that it flawed my character where I would go to any extreme just to make my point and would never (and I mean never) concede even if I understood my opponent's position and reasoning or even if I (perish the thought) was wrong.

So, I'm asking if anybody was like me when they were small? The reason that I ask is because the thread has worn thin somewhat and we're all in agreement about the fact that our Lord, our Christ, our Jesus has never sinned, neither in thought, nor in word, nor in deed. One side says, "Could he have sinned?" to which the other replies, "That's not the point, he never did sin is what I'm saying -- he is God! And God simply can't sin," The other side says, "Unless he was able to sin, he could not have been truly human, or fully man -- without free will, Jesus would have not really have been tempted.

The dance continues with neither side able to concede unless ...

Unless...

Unless what? What is needed here for the King of Peace to reign in our hearts? Understanding? Respect for each other? Will we be able to see together that our Lord, our Christ, our Jesus died for each person here? That dogma wasn't the point of His death but rather that brothers could live together in peace while striving for the unity of faith -- and trust Him to smooth out the differences? The fact that God can not die and that Jesus did - only to be raised on the third day establishes truth that he is both fully man -AND- fully God. That's the truth that banished doubt within Thomas who called Jesus, "My Lord and my God."

"And Thomas answered and said unto him, "My Lord and my God."

Jesus saith unto him, "Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." (Jhn 20:28-31 KJV)
​

 

[Drew]

COULD HE have sinned?

I will answer "yes" to this question.

You appear to not hold to the divinity of Jesus, often appealing to "concepts" to make your point and frankly, ignoring the "narrative" arguments that some of us have presented for the divinity of Jesus. I stand to be corrected on this "accusation" - if you can "prove" that you have actually dealt with some of these arguments, I will humbly recant.

In a sense, I suspect that some of "we Trinitarians" are our own worst enemy in this respect. Here is what I think often happens:

1. A Trinitarian provides an overly simply "explanation" of the Trinity;
2. There are real conceptual problems with such explanations;
3. You (and others) point out these problems to argue against Jesus' divinity.

Perhaps I am not properly understanding your view - perhaps, like me actually, you believe that Jesus is "fully God" except, of course, for some of the limitations that are unavoidable through embodiment.

Example: I believe that Jesus did not know that North America existed. Or that the sun is 150 million km away. Or that too much sun exposure gives you cancer. And I believe He was subject to temptation and could have sinned.

So, of course, He does not meet all the criteria one might predicate of God the Father.

But, as I have argued before extensively and recall that mute silence has been the result - this is the wrong way to even think about this issue.

Instead, we should focus on how the Bible expresses truth - in the form of a narrative, not as a series of propositional assertions. And, as I, and perhaps have argued at length elsewhere, in the narrative framework, the Biblical texts drive us inexorably to the position that Jesus is "God" in the Jewish, Biblical sense.

 

[smaller]

Perhaps I am not properly understanding your view - perhaps, like me actually, you believe that Jesus is "fully God" except, of course, for some of the limitations that are unavoidable through embodiment.

fwiw, I have contemplated that identical matter. Placing God in a 'container' does bring its issues. That is indeed a deep mystery, but one I think solved with the Spirit without measure. There, in that container of flesh resided the entirety of Gods Spirit. Speaks loudly about the sympathy of God for His creation imho. A Divine Humbling and mutual participation, so to speak, except for the participation in sin portion. I believe the Spirit without measure precludes that from happening and also makes every 'thing' in His creation serve The Spirit of God, including His Image, with same Spirit therein.

Example: I believe that Jesus did not know that North America existed. Or that the sun is 150 million km away. Or that too much sun exposure gives you cancer. And I believe He was subject to temptation and could have sinned.

So, of course, He does not meet all the criteria one might predicate of God the Father.

But, as I have argued before extensively and recall that mute silence has been the result - this is the wrong way to even think about this issue.

Instead, we should focus on how the Bible expresses truth - in the form of a narrative, not as a series of propositional assertions. And, as I, and perhaps have argued at length elsewhere, in the narrative framework, the Biblical texts drive us inexorably to the position that Jesus is "God" in the Jewish, Biblical sense.

Saying Jesus didn't know any particular matter may equate to saying The Spirit doesn't know, which I don't find tenable. He may very well have known and chose only to discourse matters He thought acceptable at the time, but not every matter. I would have to presume that Jesus knew everything there is to know about everything there is to know, but chose to focus on the eternal things, the things of Spiritual Eternity where all things that matter have and will ever continue to be, and makes the call to participate with those matters. Making an atom bomb or a perpetual energy device didn't seem to be high on the list.

s

 

[Free]

Free

I think he needs some help with this point.

I just need to say that you two need to play nice, and if you can't then someone needs to be the bigger man (assuming you are both male, of course ;) ) and step out of the discussion.

I will help him with his point but I think you and I have done this dance before and you didn't like my answer then, so I don't think you'll like my answer now: It is an unanswerable question.

The reason is that the Bible clearly states that Jesus was God and it also clearly states that he was God in human flesh; truly God and truly man. To give an answer one way or the other is to deny one of those clear teachings of Scripture, without any rational or Scriptural basis for doing so. Both teachings must be taken together as the entirety of Scripture is the context within which we learn and know about Christ.

Did Christ feel the full force of sin? Yes, he most certainly did, perhaps even more than any human ever will. That is what matters and is the question that can be answered without falling into heresy.

 

[Asyncritus]

Free

You are sufficiently intelligent to see the problem that faces you (and all the other trinitarians on the board).

The problem lies in what you may mean by the word 'fully'.

To you, it obviously means something different to what I understand by the word. I think my understanding is 'in every respect', or 'with no differences' and other meanings like that.

Here's a google definition:

In a full manner or degree; completely; entirely; without lack or defect; adequately; satisfactorily; as, to be fully persuaded of the truth of a proposition.

If that is a standard and correct definition of the word 'fully' then I fail utterly to see how you can say the Jesus is 'fully' God.

We have the basic scriptural description of God as One who CANNOT BE TEMPTED WITH EVIL.

We have the scriptural descriptions of Jesus BEING TEMPTED to do evil on any number of occasions.

The two things are irreconcilable and all the casuistry in the world can't reconcile the differences, because both you and Drew agree that Jesus COULD HAVE SINNED, because He WAS TEMPTED " in every respect just as we are tempted, and yet did not sin." Heb 4.15 as almost all the versions say.

I don't know where you go from there, but I humbly suggest that a review of your position is in order.

​

 

[Free]

Free

You are sufficiently intelligent to see the problem that faces you (and all the other trinitarians on the board).

The problem lies in what you may mean by the word 'fully'.

To you, it obviously means something different to what I understand by the word. I think my understanding is 'in every respect', or 'with no differences' and other meanings like that.

Here's a google definition:

In a full manner or degree; completely; entirely; without lack or defect; adequately; satisfactorily; as, to be fully persuaded of the truth of a proposition.

If that is a standard and correct definition of the word 'fully' then I fail utterly to see how you can say the Jesus is 'fully' God.

We have the basic scriptural description of God as One who CANNOT BE TEMPTED WITH EVIL.

We have the scriptural descriptions of Jesus BEING TEMPTED to do evil on any number of occasions.

The two things are irreconcilable and all the casuistry in the world can't reconcile the differences, because both you and Drew agree that Jesus COULD HAVE SINNED, because He WAS TEMPTED " in every respect just as we are tempted, and yet did not sin." Heb 4.15 as almost all the versions say.

I don't know where you go from there, but I humbly suggest that a review of your position is in order.

Thank you but I have put significant study into it my position and I assure you that it is not my position that needs to be reviewed. What you think is irreconcilable is not at all that way. This is the problem when one ignores the context of Scripture and clings to one definition of word or understanding of a verse.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Jesus is Jehovah God because of Joels Prophecy Joel 2:27-29

27And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Now notice who in the Prophecy is doing the speaking vs 27 is clear, " I am the LORD your God" Jehovah Elohym "

Now lets look in the book of Acts where this comes to pass in Peter's Preaching Acts 2:16-33

16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

The word shed here is the word ekcheō and it means to pour out:

to pour out, shed forth

2) metaph. to bestow or distribute largely


Its the same word in vs 17-18 of Acts 2. Now as we can see, who is doing the pouring out of the Holy Spirit upon all flesh ? Vs 33 is Plain, its the Lord Jesus Christ, He having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, afterward, He shed forth or poured out the Spirit in fulfillment of the Prophecy, so, He must be the LORD God of Joel 2:28

The Prophecy plainly says Joel 2:27-28

27And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

 

[John Zain]

I would just like to apologize again for jumping the gun
and starting this thread with such a ridiculous title.

I got revelation, and the error of my ways was corrected in Posts 31 and 36.