And this is where you make a complete nonsense of what Jesus achieved. See below.
This is even worse.
I grant you this: you are at least consistent, but your consistency leads you to flatly contradict scripture.
The assumption you put in play is that Jesus somehow sinned in thought, word or deed. The fact is that none of those things are presented in the scriptures. Temptation in the case of Jesus did not = sin or sinning. Why? Because in Him there is no sin. That cannot be said for anyone else. We've gone over it repeatedly, but you insist that you 'must' for some reason make Jesus at a minimum, a sinner in 'mind.' Why, I do not know. One might think they need just a tad more evidence to make that case.
If Jesus was 'fully' God, there was no way He could possibly be tempted to do wrong.
Your claim is again, that the temptation in order to be legitimate includes actions of mind, ,word or deed, and that didn't happen. Again
a false assumption on your part to legitimize the 'effect' of temptation to equal 'sin' when that isn't the case whatsoever.
Scripture says so extremely clearly, as I have pointed out, and will now remind you:
James 1.13 ¶ Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man...
That statement is only common sense, really.
But you have led yourself completely up the creek, because what you've just said flatly contradicts what a great chunk of scripture says ever so plainly:
Matt 4 and Luke 4 describe the 'temptations' in the wilderness. 'To be tempted of the devil' it says.
You can chase your tail all the day long. The temptation does not have to have 'effect' to be temptation nor does it have to be sin in thought, word or deed. It was still temptation and it had ZERO effect.
'Nope' you say.
I think you're in very deep mud just about there.
Only because you have a little program in your head that says temptation means Jesus sinned. That is not logical whatsoever. But just so you know, I have ran across a handful of people in my life that believe Jesus was a sinner, and it is impossible to sway such people regardless of reasoning. They get an idea in their heads and then it captures them and they can't stop playing the program in their minds. They then become 'enslaved' to that program and they can't get out. You will perhaps spend the balance of your life running that program in your mind.
The bottom line however is that Jesus has no sin, did no sin. That won't change because of the program in your head and temptation does not = sin when one has 'no sin' in them.
Having no sin is the differentiating factor between God in the flesh and everyone else.
Hebrews says:
4. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
You say:
I don't think you could be in deeper trouble than that.
Well, as the little program in your head keeps saying, but also keeps totally bypassing the BIG BLUE BOLD above. If we could only just slash that from the text, then we could make Jesus A SINNER couldn't we? Why you wanna do that, as I said prior, is subject to question. Point 2 in this discussion is that some people who think as you do, desiring to make God in Christ a sinner, really have a form of megalomania and their logic and reason functions stop working.
Something's gotta give. How are you going to resolve your problem, smaller?
Just prove from a single line in text that Jesus sinned in thought, word or deed. And for the record I could make a MUCH better case for your position than your program. I have done this exercise many times with myself and others.
IF you wanna know where my reasoning landed, it landed on the fact that God is Greater than the sum of all evil, and that evil serves His Purposes because He Is Able to make that happen on the basis of His Overwhelming Superiority over 'all things.'
Part of the difficulty in people who do not fully accept the Fully God Nature of GOD in Christ is that they want to discount that side of the ledger and make Jesus different than God, and that is and remains a basic foul of reasoning. One cannot discount GOD in Christ in any way or DIVIDE Jesus from God, which is what you are trying to perform. That action was deemed a heresy many centuries ago, and I agree with that determination.
With all due respect, smaller, you haven't. You said words to the effect that Jesus didn't 'lust'.
Sinful lust, yes. I do believe there is righteous and Godly Lust, which is VERY JEALOUS btw. God has a tremendous amount of passion for His creation. I do not consider that type of 'desire' a sin, and that is His Nature in play at all times, never swayed and NEVER sinning.
Yet, in the wilderness, He was TEMPTED to turn stones into bread, to satisfy His hunger. It says so. That is the lust of the flesh.
Again, your little head case keeps trying to turn that 'external temptation' from 'another entity' into SIN in Jesus. That does not logic out. We are able to 'tell' what is in a persons mind by what they speak. The LIPS are a doorway to the MIND. Jesus responded with THE TRUTH, and that TRUTH WAS IN HIS MIND, FULLY AS GOD THEREIN.
I doubt at this time you will be able to find a release from that little program in your head. But if you put that aside and use reason apart from that program, maybe even pray about it a little, God in Christ will grant you release from that program that has captured your thinking. You have my prayers for same anyway.
He was TEMPTED to take all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them. It says so. That is the lust of the eyes.
He was TEMPTED to jump off the pinnacle of the temple. It says so. That is the pride of life.
They are all there. AND HE CONQUERED THEM. If He wasn't tempted to do these things, if He didn't feel the force of the evil that He was contemplating, that was seeking to drag Him down, then there was no CONQUEST. There was nothing to overcome.
Surely you can see that.
But you see, you keep equating that Jesus had to SIN in MIND in order to conquer, and logically that doesn't have to be the case whatsoever. Being externally tempted and having that temptation turn into even a thought of sin in God in Christ simply did not happen, nor is there any record of such a consequence. If you had a basis other than that little program in your head, such as a 'written' account of Jesus sinning in mind, you could have yer brownie points.
But if you do see that, then there are dire consequences.
So what are you going to do? Dig your heels in, or face the force of fact?
Smaller, that is a terrible thing to say. My earnest desire is to go where scripture leads me, wherever that may be. I'm very much like Sherlock Holmes - I go docilely where the facts may lead, without fear or favour.
Surely from the facts I've listed above, you can see the truth of what I'm saying? That He was "...was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."
You have a decision to make. Was He?
Yeah, if we could only eliminate those words we don't like that don't fit the little program in our heads.
I prefer to use those Words as my basis of reasoning. If they can't be logically eliminated, which there is no way to do as they are already written, then the fault in logic and reasoning is on the part of the one trying to do the same. That is where you are, and that is probably where you will remain captive. There is one guy in particular that I ran across, oh, about 11 years ago, and the man was a great Bible student, but he too got the same little idea in his own head, and he too remains there to this day. One cannot move him from that little program. And he is also passionate in trying to get recruits for his little program.
My logic and reasoning did not land me there, because it is subservient to the facts that are written. You simply can't insert those facts into your program because it makes your construct or as I call it, your IDOL in MIND, to fall. And the little program won't let that happen will it?
Well, anyway, good luck with that. I think we've pretty well exhausted this subject. When your program can eliminate the BIG BLUE BOLD above, feel free to let me know. (hint: it ain't gonna happen)
enjoy!
smaller
