security of the believer

[Drew]

deleted own post.

 

[Drew]

Oh sorry I really only got moved to add thoughts to this thread in response to the preaching of sinlessness in the flesh. That being a true Christian means you will never sin again, and anyone who does sin shows themselves as a false Christian. I always oppose this toxic doctrine.

I am not a supporter of the OSAS doctrine, which is a part of the 5 pillars of calvinism which i do not believe in.


Hope that clarifies things.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

Well I happen to agree with you on all of your points. So we'll need to find something else to disagree over

 

[smaller]

You are a rude person who brings great discredit to the gospel.

What an outrageous, innappropriate, unwarranted, and entirely destructive statement.

Oh come on. You get to condemn other believers to eternal death and then complain about my rudeness? lol

HERE is what we have both supposedly been taught in this particular matter:

Gal. 6:
1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

Remember, smaller, we will all be called to account for "careless words" spoken.

I will try very hard to NOT throw my fellow believers to ETERNAL DEATH. That I cannot practice. It is forbidden.

And the rest of your post, the suggestion that I enjoy the thought of people being annihilated is equally outrageous and uncacceptable.

As it pertains to FALLEN believers, I believe that is a horrible thing to have to carry in ones heart toward another believer. I really don't know how you manage to 'do that' quite frankly. I am not equipped to contemplate that in my heart or to have to carry 'eternal death' to another believer, if fallen. That is a club too big for me to bring, nor do I believe we are given that club. Only God Holds that matter.

s

 

[Drew]

Oh come on. You get to condemn other believers to eternal death and then complain about my rudeness? lol

You are, I trust, aware of the fact that Christians should notmisrepresent the truth.

Your statement that "I (drew) am condemning other believers to eternal death" is simply not substantiated by anything I posted - I never posted anything that could be reasonably taken that way.

 

[smaller]

You are, I trust, aware of the fact that Christians should notmisrepresent the truth.

Your statement that "I (drew) am condemning other believers to eternal death" is simply not substantiated by anything I posted - I never posted anything that could be reasonably taken that way.

When any believer conveys the possibility of eternal death to another believer, that is what they are conveying to other believers who have fallen BACK into the clutches of Satan and present death.

This is HOW a believer FALLS back into WALKING DEATH:

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

I can not say that the conveyance of ETERNAL DEATH to a fallen believer is a conveyance of LOVE. I desire to 'keep myself' IN THE LOVE OF GOD, hard as that may seem in these matters.

Love NEVER fails. Stepping OFF that fact 'may' very well PRODUCE failures.

s

 

[Drew]

When any believer conveys the possibility of eternal death to another believer, that is what they are conveying to other believers who have fallen BACK into the clutches of Satan and present death.

For me to agree with the writers of the New Testament that some will indeed be lost is decidedly not grounds to suggest that I do not love.

 

[smaller]

For me to agree with the writers of the New Testament that some will indeed be lost is decidedly not grounds to suggest that I do not love.

I do not find the ground to convey eternal death to any believer. IF you think that is what you see and want to reflect to the fallen brother, so be that within you.

Restoration comes by and through His Love in us to them. Not in the conveyance of death.

That is my own reflection on the same texts. I care not to be an eternal death conveyor belt to my fallen believer/brothers.

Love them and expect the best for them, and pray for that in the hopes that prayer would be answered to the END.

s

 

[Drew]

Jesus spoke of this exact activity, here:

Mark 13:
12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death

All of you who CLAIM ETERNAL DEATH upon your brother believers are betrayers OF LIFE and conveyors OF DEATH. Death is WRITTEN, SEARED and SEALED across your heart and lips.

This is the fate of those who ABIDE IN DEATH. They KNOW NOT LOVE. They DO NOT LOVE. The BEAT their fellow slaves of GOD with their BLUNT DOCTRINAL instruments, FALSELY claiming to SIT in the SEAT of The Eternal Judge.

The instant you claim to know ANYONES eternal fate unto DEATH or TORTURE FIRE, you have in fact ascended AND SEATED your SINNING SELF, IN A THRONE that does not BELONG TO YOU.

God in Christ has issued BELIEVERS a COMMAND to SHARE IN HIS ETERNAL LIFE, not only with our 'brothers' but with ALL MANKIND. Your command was NOT given TO BE or to ACT as a DICTATOR OF ETERNAL DEATH to those you are TO LOVE.

There is NO SUCH COMMANDMENT!

Who the heck are you addressing this rant to?

For those who might be interested in annoying things - like facts - the fact of the matter is that I have never stated that I know what any particular person's fate is.

And I most certainly have not "CLAIMed ETERNAL DEATH upon my brother believers".

 

[smaller]

And I most certainly have not "CLAIMed ETERNAL DEATH upon my brother believers".

What is it then?

When confronted with equating LOVE = possible eternal death to a fallen believer I can not make that equation a working one.

Must be 'my' math problem, eh?

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Drew]

What is it then?

When confronted with equating LOVE = possible eternal death to a fallen believer I can not make that equation a working one.

Must be 'my' math problem, eh?

It is not me who says that some will be lost, it is Paul and Jesus. I would dearly love to be a universalist, but I cannot see this in scripture. So let's be clear: My belief that the Bible teaches that some will be lost is nothing more than me expressing my belief about what the Bible teaches.

It is certainly not me placing myself in the position of judging specific persons.

 

[Free]

smaller,

The Bible clearly states that some will fall away from the faith, that there is a real danger of Christians falling from relationship with God, whether through action or inaction on their part. If one believes that the Bible teaches that such Christians will eventually suffer the same fate as unbelievers, then they are free to do so and should not be condemned for doing so, especially when you are grossly misrepresenting what is being said.

To say that the Bible shows that some who are Christians now will eventually suffer the same as unbelievers, having fallen away from the faith, is no different then saying that the Bible shows unbelievers will suffer some form of eternal punishment. Merely stating what one believes the Bible says in this matter is not at all the same as condemning specific persons.

For someone who so quickly claims that others are "[sitting] in the seat of the Eternal Judge," you are just as quick to sit there yourself. Stop misrepresenting what others are saying and stop being so rude just because you disagree with someone.

 

[watchman F]

It is not me who says that some will be lost, it is Paul and Jesus. I would dearly love to be a universalist, but I cannot see this in scripture. So let's be clear: My belief that the Bible teaches that some will be lost is nothing more than me expressing my belief about what the Bible teaches.

It is certainly not me placing myself in the position of judging specific persons.

Not to mention Peter

2nd Peter 2
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[Adstar]

Well I happen to agree with you on all of your points. So we'll need to find something else to disagree over

Given time i am sure we will (((((hug))))) :D


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

PS: Oh and don't let smaller cut you down. Anyone who puts a view forward different to smaller in this forum is soon condemned by him as being a enemy of God or an agent of satan, in many varied ways.

 

[smaller]

Given time i am sure we will (((((hug))))) :D


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

PS: Oh and don't let smaller cut you down. Anyone who puts a view forward different to smaller in this forum is soon condemned by him as being a enemy of God or an agent of satan, in many varied ways.

Let's be clear on this matter, and as stated herein by me.

I believe you are all believers and are thusly and eternally SAVED.

The 'condemnation' you PRETEND to see to you or to any other believer DOES NOT EXIST.

You are welcome to say OTHERWISE for me, for which purposes I will leave for your own minds contemplation.

s

 

[smaller]

smaller,

The Bible clearly states that some will fall away from the faith, that there is a real danger of Christians falling from relationship with God, whether through action or inaction on their part.

I have never stated otherwise. Believers can and do fall away FROM LIFE in this present life. This speaks NOTHING of their eternal fate. I view such as 'fallen' warriors of the faith.

NO MAN engaged in GOD IN CHRIST'S army in his right mind seeks to eternally annihilate such fallen warriors.

WE ALL have very real enemies. They are NOT my fellow fallen believers.

The very real fact that remains for this exact matter is that there is not ONE SINGLE BELIEVER who is conveyed this fate that you seek in the entire New Testament.

I believe that GOD SAVES THE FALLEN BELIEVERS who have fallen in their battles to SHARE GODS LOVE in Jesus Christ.

If one believes that the Bible teaches that such Christians will eventually suffer the same fate as unbelievers, then they are free to do so and should not be condemned for doing so, especially when you are grossly misrepresenting what is being said.

I do know this about the 'fallen' believers:

1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

The above is PRESENT DEATH, even while ALIVE in the body.


Perhaps even in claiming BELIEF where THAT LOVE is not shown and sown.

To say that the Bible shows that some who are Christians now will eventually suffer the same as unbelievers, having fallen away from the faith, is no different then saying that the Bible shows unbelievers will suffer some form of eternal punishment. Merely stating what one believes the Bible says in this matter is not at all the same as condemning specific persons.

Were the position that temporal salvation believers available, I would consider it and I have. That presentation is not available or shown to ANY believer, then fallen. The opposite measure IS shown for such in our commands to RESTORE such with efforts unceasing lest we ourselves FALL to the same enemy that defeated them. (Gal. 6:1)

In this light of this Gal. 6:1 matter and in the light of EMPATHY for fallen victims of SATAN, I can not in good faith convey ETERNAL DEATH to any such as that dictate does not exist anywhere.

For someone who so quickly claims that others are "[sitting] in the seat of the Eternal Judge," you are just as quick to sit there yourself. Stop misrepresenting what others are saying and stop being so rude just because you disagree with someone.

The only, I repeat only position that such as yours can hold is A MAY position. You can NOT have a SOLID position in this matter. For such holders it is A MAY only position, and not a SOLID determination position. No man has the right to that Seat.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[smaller]

It is not me who says that some will be lost, it is Paul and Jesus. I would dearly love to be a universalist, but I cannot see this in scripture. So let's be clear: My belief that the Bible teaches that some will be lost is nothing more than me expressing my belief about what the Bible teaches.

It is certainly not me placing myself in the position of judging specific persons.

IF what you claim is TRUE, (follow the if/then logic please) THEN show me where ANY believer is conveyed ETERNAL DEATH. It's that simple.

What you seek from the writers does not exist by those writers.

s

 

[smaller]

Observations of the 'fallen believers' from a personal perspective.

I sat for a fews years under the auspices of the charismatic realm. These people at that time for me, seemed the most 'fervent' in their faith as expressed in worship and in interactions, Bible studies, etc etc. I was likeminded and like motivated as a new and very fervent believer, fresh off a real touch of my own heart from God in Jesus Christ. These groups included the 'Full Gospel Businessmens Fellowship,' the various 'Word of Faith' groups, 'Rhema fellowships,' 'The Way fellowships,' the 'AoG,' amongst others who were coming forth at that time. I sat under MANY of these types of teachings/teachers, the best of the best within these groups.

My 'local church' was a Rhema branch.

In the observations of these members lives and their understandings, some I could not remedy or justify with the scriptures. Their fruit was imho, corrupt in many ways. One day, while sitting in service, I heard in my 'mind' a statement that said, "ICHABOD is written above the threshold of this church." On that day my wife had a similar word, that 'somethings are not right here.'

I thought, what? What is "Ichabod?" Like Ichabod Crane in the headless horseman?

When I got home, I pulled out the Strongs, and sure enough, there was the usage of that Word in the O.T. The meaning? 'THE SPIRIT HAS DEPARTED.'

I departed that church and ALL of it's various assemblies on that day, and never went back, thereafter immersing myself in studies and seeking understandings. I largely discarded 'speaking in tongues,' (not opposed, but assuredly JUDGE those spirits) 'falling under the supposed Spirit' 'name it and claim it' and a myriad of FALSE DOCTRINES and BULLYING and MANIPULATIVE personalities that exist in those groups, ALL.

I had an up and coming 'elder' (a position I turned down) come to my office (when the checks weren't showing up in the offering plate) and pronounce either my return OR ETERNAL DAMNATION.

I threw him out of my office for the LIAR and HYPOCRITE that he was (UNDER CONTROL BY.) I knew him 'well enough' from my observations of his own life.

This was 24 years ago. Within a year the pastor of that local assembly had an affair with another member, so did his wife, so did many in the 'sect.' They were all scattered. The pastor left the church permanently. Many in the membership are no longer believers that I can see, but have returned solidly into the world. They no longer speak publically of their 'faith' as witnesses to Gods Love in Jesus Christ. They have in effect fallen from His Love and that, in judgments present.

I've seen this happen to MANY scores of believers. I still love these people, and speak to them of Gods Love to this day, even moreso. Some have returned to faith in various ways, and more SOLID ways in actual 'life.' God 'restored' them.

I did not leave or abandon my faith. I DID abandon THEIR VERSIONS of these matters. Nothing more, nothing less. It was the same when I left the RCC. I do not 'accept' that version of GOD in JESUS CHRIST.


In the final analysis, I came to the same place I started with Jesus. He Loves me with HIS PERFECT LOVE...and has 'shown' me this fact throughout my life, and in the lives of my family and neighbors. This is where I have abode for quite some time. I have been 'called' to SHARE, as so, I have RECEIVED from Him.

God in Christ has NOT called me to SHARE eternal damnation unto those who as fallen away from the SAME constructs/versions of Jesus that I DEPARTED from and who have lost their sights. I am in many ways GLAD they lost sight of that NONSENSE!

IF we had EVERY DOCTRINE correct, but HAD NOT LOVE, we are, in fact, AS NOTHING. (1 Cor. 13)

IT is and remains GRACE that leads men to repent. Grace is the UNmerited FAVOR of God, which same I continue to pray for FOR ALL.

Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

No, I do NOT despise these matters. I KNOW Gods Love. His Patience, His forbearance, His GOODNESS, His LONGSUFFERING as 'personal conveyances.'

LOVE = does no ill
LOVE = keeps NO RECORD of wrongs
LOVE = NEVER FAILS

IF you KNOW only that LAST MEASURE...you would KNOW where TO STAND on this subject matter.

WHY would you stand ANYWHERE else? Do you seriously THINK that God in Christ has delivered you A BULLY STICK called 'eternal death' to BEAT those fallen BACK into the submission of SOME CONSTRUCT of JESUS CHRIST???

If we measure to others as we would have for ourselves, then the obligation for me is to MEASURE the very BEST that I can see, and so I have been LED through the Word. God is my ALLY and my FRIEND in this matter, and WILL SPEAK HIS LOVE to your heart TO ALSO SHARE, not only with those who have REJECTED perhaps 'your version' of Jesus, but also to your unsaved neighbors. You do not NEED any other man or teacher to TEACH YOU these things IN YOUR HEART.

This matter IS The Word of God, LIVING and ACTIVE in ANY in whom He Is.

I do not seek to form 'idol makers' of doctrines and alternative forms of God in Jesus Christ.

God IS LOVE.

Yes, if you NEED JUDGMENT, and we ALL DO, then LOOK to 'our' very REAL enemies. They are NOT fallen believers.

IF you do not enjoy my testimony, and hold this against me as the practice of my 'faith'

enjoy anyway. I have NOTHING against YOU.

smaller

 

[Free]

The only, I repeat only position that such as yours can hold is A MAY position. You can NOT have a SOLID position in this matter. For such holders it is A MAY only position, and not a SOLID determination position. No man has the right to that Seat.

So you think unbelievers may be in heaven?

 

[smaller]

So you think unbelievers may be in heaven?

No vessel of dishonour will be in heaven.

Believers were once believers, then fallen into PRESENT DEATH.

You are 'free' to bypass the observations in the post and seek some other angle.

IF so seeking as you stated, you may also read Romans 11:25-32 to see 'if' God saves 'enemies of the Gospel' and let Paul speak to the matter.

s

 

[Free]

No vessel of dishonour will be in heaven.

So if unbelievers won't in heaven, and those who no longer believe are unbelievers, then how can they be in heaven?