Self defense revisited (sort of)

[Grazer]

I say sort of because whilst the below is in the context of self defense and standing up for yourself, there's are much deeper message here. Below is an extract from a book I'm reading, again its more aimed at men but I think everyone can take something from it;

Finally the truth came out - a bully. Some first-grade poser had pushed him down on the playground in front of all his friends. Tears were streaming down his cheeks as he told us the story.

"Blaine, look at me". He raised his tearful eyes slowly, reluctantly. There was shame written all over his face. "I want you to listen very closely to what I am about to say. The next time that bully pushes you down, here is what I want you to do - are you listening Blaine?" He nodded, his big wet eyes fixed on mine. "I want you to get up....and I want you to hit him....as hard as you possibly can." A look of embarrassed delight came over Blaine's face. Then he smiled.

Good Lord - why did I give him such advice? And why was he delighted with it? Why some of you delighted with it, while others are appalled?

Yes, I know that Jesus told us to turn the other cheek. But we have really misused that verse. If you take one passage of scripture while ignoring others, you will come to absurd conclusions. Paul said, "It is good for a man to marry" (1 Corinthians 7:1). Well then-no man should marry. Jesus said, "If you want to perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor..." (Matthew 19:21). Then why do you still have possessions? Do you see the foolishness of this?

If Jesus intended to teach us, "Never resist a bully", why does he also tell his disciples, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one" (Luke 22:36). Buy a sword? "The disciples said 'See, Lord, here are two swords.' 'That is enough' he replied" (Luke 22:36). He arms them. And that little matter of making a whip and using it to clear the temple - that doesn't seem like turning the other cheek, now, does it?

We do not want to teach boys that bullies should never be resisted, and we do not want to teach bullies that they can get away with it! Yes, scripture teaches the wise the use of strength and the power of forgiveness. But you cannot teach a boy to use his strength by stripping him of it. Jesus was able to retaliate, believe me. But he chose not to. And yet we suggest that a boy who is mocked, shamed before his fellows, stripped of all power and dignity should stay in that beaten place because Jesus wants him there? You will emasculate him for life. From that point on all will be passive and fearful. He will grow up never knowing how to stand his ground, never knowing if he is a man indeed. Oh yes, he will be courteous, sweet even, deferential, minding all his manners. It may look moral, it may look like turning the other cheek, but it is merely weakness. You cannot turn a cheek you do not have. Our churches are full of such men.

He goes on to say that he gave the advice to a boy he trusted who was in first grade, not someone who's enemy could pull out a gun. Wisdom and context.

I can relate to this story as I was bullied at school and I doubt I'm alone here. I was taught not to fight back and it nearly destroyed any self esteem and confidence I had. Going to school was a nightmare. The scars (both emotional and physical) are still there. But once I stood up for myself, everything changed. I've seen both sides of the self defense argument.

I was working security for a pub and an incident kicked off inside. It was my first altercation. One of the ones causing trouble came at me but I swiftly had him in an arm lock and out the door. My colleagues followed suit with his friends. But another time it happened outside.As my colleagues went out to deal with it, I was left inside and 3 guys wanted out to help outside. I stopped them and it got a little strained. But I stood my ground. Afterwards they came up to me and thanked me for not beating them up. It was 3 on 1 and they were thanking me??? Final one. Was outside (not working this time) and some drunk guy decided he didn't like me. He started on me and his friends eventually led him away, but all I did was talk and smile. Well, I actually also put myself against a wall so if he threw a punch all I had to was move my head and he'd punch the wall giving me vital time to get away.

I don't take pleasure in these events and I'm not putting them to go 'look at me' You could say "it was my job" and it would largely be true. But the principle is, knowing when to hold back and when to use force is what I think Jesus was getting at. Defend yourself and others if you need to but don't go looking for trouble. My martial arts instructor put it succinctly;

If you get into a situation; run if you can, talk your way out if you can't. If both of those fail, do what you have to to get out safely but no more.

I think that will do for now. I turn the cyber floor over to you.

Sent from my HTC Desire S using Tapatalk 2

 

[Aardverk]

You strike a good balance I think.

As a forces brat, I moved around a lot and went to 10 schools. At most new schools I was picked on by the bullies. Fortunately I found that I was a lot stronger than I looked and the bullies only ever had one go at me.

As my confidence grew, I started to 'playfully' push other around a bit and it was only when someone much smaller than me stood up to me that I realized that I was on the edge of being a bully myself. I apologized to that kid and took more care over my behavior after that.

The moral of the story is that unless you stand up to bullies they will keep on doing it. It doesn't matter if you can beat them or not, it is still worth standing your ground to give them a clear message. I confess that I still do that but only verbally these days - but you knew that didn't you.

 

[reba]

Good message

 

[Claudya]

I was bullied, couldn't defend myself ALTHOUGH I had a solid martial arts training (8 years of Karate), but I never had the courage to fight back. I could defend myself against some stranger's attack on a dark parking lot, but not against the bullies at school.
So I still have a serious self harm problem and no self esteem at all. I still can't stand up for myself. There's predators out there that prey on the weakness of people, and they always seem to find me.
I can only pray that God will give me some self esteem some day, or else I will end up killing someone, most likely myself.

Sorry if that's not a helpfull post.

 

[Aardverk]

I was bullied, couldn't defend myself ALTHOUGH I had a solid martial arts training (8 years of Karate), but I never had the courage to fight back. I could defend myself against some stranger's attack on a dark parking lot, but not against the bullies at school.
So I still have a serious self harm problem and no self esteem at all. I still can't stand up for myself. There's predators out there that prey on the weakness of people, and they always seem to find me.
I can only pray that God will give me some self esteem some day, or else I will end up killing someone, most likely myself.

Sorry if that's not a helpfull post.

I'm sorry to hear of your lack of self esteem. Is it unconsciously related to your parents disregarding your wishes about your hair? From my own psychology studies I was well aware that parents can rightly be blamed for all sorts of their children's problems. My wife is a highly qualified and very experienced psychotherapist, she puts it down as the number one cause of problems. Even as adults, people just can't climb out of that hole their parents put them in. Something to do with a lack of positive attachment and appropriate brain development but that's all beyond me.

 

[stovebolts]

I was bullied a lot in school. Put me in a corner, and I'll come out with everything I have. I remember in the 7th grade the "cool" kid sat in back of me hitting me in the head with his pencil and laughing. All of this prior to Home Room. I'd get mad and look back in anger and he'd taunt me until it felt like the whole classroom was laughing at me.

He hit me again and I turned and said, "Stop it!"
He replied, "What you gonna do about it he he he".
The room filled with laughter... once again.

He hit me again and I came out of my chair so fast he didn't know what hit him. I put him in a head lock and started choking him saying profanities.

Next thing I knew the teacher from across the hall was slapping me in the face screaming my name. I came to and looked down to see this boy's body limp in my arms. I let go of him and he lay limp in his chair. Did I kill him? I wanted to in my rage.

The teachers and students put their focus on him, and I slowly walked out of the room and played hookey that day.

I didn't get into trouble for it which surprised me, and this kid never picked on me again...

 

[Claudya]

I'm sorry to hear of your lack of self esteem. Is it unconsciously related to your parents disregarding your wishes about your hair? From my own psychology studies I was well aware that parents can rightly be blamed for all sorts of their children's problems. My wife is a highly qualified and very experienced psychotherapist, she puts it down as the number one cause of problems. Even as adults, people just can't climb out of that hole their parents put them in. Something to do with a lack of positive attachment and appropriate brain development but that's all beyond me.

Well of course it wasn't just about the hair length. My parents unintentionally taught me that my needs and wishes don't count. They didn't mean to teach me anything like that, but that's how I understood it as a young child. My mother has very low self esteem herself, she just transfered it to me. I think she's unaware of her own low confidence in herself (my father compensates a lot of it by taking control over most family matters). I'm afraid if I ever have children I will continue that line.

But at least I will teach my children to defend themselves when they get bullied (or when someone else gets bullied). I was taught to "ignore it", I understood that as an advice to not react (I suppose what they meant was "don't let it get to you", but as a child I couldn't tell those two meanings appart). So I learned to be passive when I got attacked. It didn't help, and I never learned how to defend myself approbriately and take control of a situation back. When I get attacked verbally nowadays my brain just switches itself off.
Ask your wife about the concept of learned helplessness. It's a good explanatory model for why some people get depressive and fail at their lives.

I'm gonna start seeing a shrink in April, I hope I can re-learn all those dysfuntional cognitive/ behavioural patterns.

Sorry to burden you with all that stuff, and also sorry for hijacking grazer's thread, but it's really good to talk about those things. So thanks for listening.

 

[farouk]

Well of course it wasn't just about the hair length. My parents unintentionally taught me that my needs and wishes don't count. They didn't mean to teach me anything like that, but that's how I understood it as a young child. My mother has very low self esteem herself, she just transfered it to me. I think she's unaware of her own low confidence in herself (my father compensates a lot of it by taking control over most family matters). I'm afraid if I ever have children I will continue that line.

But at least I will teach my children to defend themselves when they get bullied (or when someone else gets bullied). I was taught to "ignore it", I understood that as an advice to not react (I suppose what they meant was "don't let it get to you", but as a child I couldn't tell those two meanings appart). So I learned to be passive when I got attacked. It didn't help, and I never learned how to defend myself approbriately and take control of a situation back. When I get attacked verbally nowadays my brain just switches itself off.
Ask your wife about the concept of learned helplessness. It's a good explanatory model for why some people get depressive and fail at their lives.

I'm gonna start seeing a shrink in April, I hope I can re-learn all those dysfuntional cognitive/ behavioural patterns.

Sorry to burden you with all that stuff, and also sorry for hijacking grazer's thread, but it's really good to talk about those things. So thanks for listening.

Claudya:

Sorry about your difficulties.

Before April, why not read through the Psalms: they contain such a huge range of human experience.

 

[for_his_glory]

Even Jesus took matters in his hands when he chased the money changers out of the temple destroying their tables. I use to get in many fights when I was in school as others kids would tease me because my family was on welfare due to my fathers disability, but they did not understand that. As a young girl up until my late teens in High School I did stand my ground defending myself when I had to, but would rather have ran away from my pursuers. When I did fight back, literally at one time throwing one boy over the bus seat, I then gained respect from all the others that would bully me and no one laid a hand on me after that because they knew I wasn't going to take their grief anymore. Was I proud of the fact that I was a girl that could beat up a boy, no, but I believe everyone like even Jesus and the money changers has their limits. Was Jesus wrong in driving out the money changers, no, because he was protecting that which was sacred of God being the temple and to us we are protecting that of our self and sending a message that shows others we are not going to put up with their bullying and it has to end.

 

[jasoncran]

Well of course it wasn't just about the hair length. My parents unintentionally taught me that my needs and wishes don't count. They didn't mean to teach me anything like that, but that's how I understood it as a young child. My mother has very low self esteem herself, she just transfered it to me. I think she's unaware of her own low confidence in herself (my father compensates a lot of it by taking control over most family matters). I'm afraid if I ever have children I will continue that line.

But at least I will teach my children to defend themselves when they get bullied (or when someone else gets bullied). I was taught to "ignore it", I understood that as an advice to not react (I suppose what they meant was "don't let it get to you", but as a child I couldn't tell those two meanings appart). So I learned to be passive when I got attacked. It didn't help, and I never learned how to defend myself approbriately and take control of a situation back. When I get attacked verbally nowadays my brain just switches itself off.
Ask your wife about the concept of learned helplessness. It's a good explanatory model for why some people get depressive and fail at their lives.

I'm gonna start seeing a shrink in April, I hope I can re-learn all those dysfuntional cognitive/ behavioural patterns.

Sorry to burden you with all that stuff, and also sorry for hijacking grazer's thread, but it's really good to talk about those things. So thanks for listening.

ah yes a bit I can relate and must also learn to change.God's word is able.

 

[Claudya]

God's word is able.

Aye, and I'm hoping He will help me heal. Many years ago God actually told me I will be better, but it's gonna take a lot of work on my own part. I won't get an instant miracle healing.
So I must trust Him and keep fighting.

I just read the other thread you started and I just wanted to let you know I'll be praying for you. I hope you will feel better soon.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Even Jesus took matters in his hands when he chased the money changers out of the temple destroying their tables. I use to get in many fights when I was in school as others kids would tease me because my family was on welfare due to my fathers disability, but they did not understand that. As a young girl up until my late teens in High School I did stand my ground defending myself when I had to, but would rather have ran away from my pursuers. When I did fight back, literally at one time throwing one boy over the bus seat, I then gained respect from all the others that would bully me and no one laid a hand on me after that because they knew I wasn't going to take their grief anymore. Was I proud of the fact that I was a girl that could beat up a boy, no, but I believe everyone like even Jesus and the money changers has their limits. Was Jesus wrong in driving out the money changers, no, because he was protecting that which was sacred of God being the temple and to us we are protecting that of our self and sending a message that shows others we are not going to put up with their bullying and it has to end.

Jesus used his temper(anger) for good rather than abusing it for bad.
He set a very good example.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Many Christians are pacifists (or try to be).
I believe Jesus wants us to call on him in our time of need.
I believe calling on the name of Jesus is more powerful than any of the martial arts or guns.
But it takes a lot of faith to do that.
No one can hurt me if I call on Jesus unless he permits it, because I've given my life to him.
It is no longer my own.
And if Jesus permits it, who am I to argue with him?
I believe this is what putting your faith in Jesus is all about.
If I am faced with life or death, what will I do?
I hope I'll do what I just said.

 

[MsJo]

I thank all of you for giving me a clearer understanding of bullying and a biblical answer to this problem. I have never been a victim but I do have a deep compassion for the ones that do suffer this kind of abuse and for those who still have the scars from the past.

 

[farouk]

I thank all of you for giving me a clearer understanding of bullying and a biblical answer to this problem. I have never been a victim but I do have a deep compassion for the ones that do suffer this kind of abuse and for those who still have the scars from the past.

MsJo: Interesting; here in Canada, a lot of folk would err on the cautious side about taking the law into their own hands. Or maybe I've missed the point, idk.

 

[for_his_glory]

here is a good website that teaches Biblical self defense if anyone is interested in what God has to say on the subject

www.biblicalselfdefense.com

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

There's a story told at the Army War College that illustrates this very well.

Some cranes made their feeding grounds on some plowlands newly sown with wheat. For a time, the farmer managed to drive the cranes from his fields by sending the dogs out to bark and harrass the birds, but before long, the cranes realized there was no real danger from the dogs, the birds being faster and able to escape easily. Then the farmer, brandishing an empty sling, chased them away by the terror he inspired; but when the birds found that the sling was only swung in the air, they ceased to take any notice of it and would not move. The farmer, on seeing this, charged his sling with stones, and killed a great number. The remaining birds at once forsook his fields, crying to each other, "It is time for us to be off, for this man is no longer content to scare us, but begins to show us in earnest what he can do." If words suffice not, and displays of power prove fruitless, blows must follow.