Self Will vs the Human Spirit

[Classik]

Is self-will the same as the human spirit? To make you understand this, think about this situation: Adam and Eve sinned against God. Were they possessed by the spirit of the devil which hypnotised them and caused them to sin? Or were they posseseed by the Spirit of God? Or was it just self-will (and neither the spirit of the devil or of God) that made them sin...or was it just their own spirit controlling them? If this is the case, 'self-will', is self-will same as human spirit?

 

[George Muller]

Is self-will the same as the human spirit? To make you understand this, think about this situation: Adam and Eve sinned against God. Were they possessed by the spirit of the devil which hypnotised them and caused them to sin? Or were they posseseed by the Spirit of God? Or was it just self-will (and neither the spirit of the devil or of God) that made them sin...or was it just their own spirit controlling them? If this is the case, 'self-will', is self-will same as human spirit?

I think Paul helps us to understand, that what makes up our "will" is hidden from us in a way? That the Word of God must judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart, so that we can know and understand the "will" of God.

Ro 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

So I think it is clear that many of us would never sin again, if our "will" was the controlling factor of our lives, but there is another "will" a "law of sin" in us, and only when we die to self-will can we crucify this sinful part of us. Thus Paul teaches that all godliness, righteousness, holiness is a product of Gods Spirit working in and through us "to will and act according to Gods good pleasure"

 

[Classik]

Thanks for this reply :nod

 

[JLB]

Thus Paul teaches that all godliness, righteousness, holiness is a product of Gods Spirit working in and through us "to will and act according to Gods good pleasure"

Do you believe the Spirit of God that works in us "overrules" our will and controls us by taking the place of our will to do what is righteous or do you believe God's Spirit influences our will to choose to do what is righteous?


JLB

 

[Classik]

Thus Paul teaches that all godliness, righteousness, holiness is a product of Gods Spirit working in and through us "to will and act according to Gods good pleasure"

Do you believe the Spirit of God that works in us "overrules" our will and controls us by taking the place of our will to do what is righteous or do you believe God's Spirit influences our will to choose to do what is righteous? JLB

Good question. How about when we do the wrong thing?

 

[George Muller]

Thus Paul teaches that all godliness, righteousness, holiness is a product of Gods Spirit working in and through us "to will and act according to Gods good pleasure"

Do you believe the Spirit of God that works in us "overrules" our will and controls us by taking the place of our will to do what is righteous or do you believe God's Spirit influences our will to choose to do what is righteous?


JLB

Well JLB, as I have said over and over that our will - self will is "crucified" -put to death in true biblical obedience. The Spirit of God is strong in those who become weak, "fear and trembling" is the condition that God demands in order to work through the believer "TO WILL AND ACT ACCORDING TO HIS GOOD PURPOSE" So no the Spirit, does not overrule the "will of self" but obedience is to surrender ones will unto the Will of God, that is manifest through the Holy Spirit in the believer. This is not hard to understand and the scriptures back this position of surrendered will in absolute terms. So not sure where you are finding such strife about what is made so evident?

 

[George Muller]

Thus Paul teaches that all godliness, righteousness, holiness is a product of Gods Spirit working in and through us "to will and act according to Gods good pleasure"

Do you believe the Spirit of God that works in us "overrules" our will and controls us by taking the place of our will to do what is righteous or do you believe God's Spirit influences our will to choose to do what is righteous? JLB

Good question. How about when we do the wrong thing?

When one walks in self-will of course they are disobedient, thats why we are called to "die" to "self" and the will of self-life.

 

[JLB]

So no the Spirit, does not overrule the "will of self" but obedience is to surrender ones will unto the Will of God,

So then a person must choose to do the will of God.

This is because they have a will that is free to choose, whether obedience leading to righteousness, or whether of sin leading to death.

This is what Paul teaches us in Romans -

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

The choice is yours, because your will is free to choose.

OSAS is a false doctrine!


JLB

 

[George Muller]

So no the Spirit, does not overrule the "will of self" but obedience is to surrender ones will unto the Will of God,

So then a person must choose to do the will of God.

This is because they have a will that is free to choose, whether obedience leading to righteousness, or whether of sin leading to death.

This is what Paul teaches us in Romans -

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

The choice is yours, because your will is free to choose.

OSAS is a false doctrine!


JLB

Yes the obedience of faith is the only obedience. To "whom" ye yield, so then one must "yield" ones own will to obey. To become enslaved is the word, does that sound like "free-will"?
To walk in "free-will" self-will is to be a "slave" to sin, to walk in the Spirit is to be a "slave" to righteousness

And since you ignored the last post: I will post it again, for even if you don't like the answer it remains the truth:

as I have said over and over that our will - self will is "crucified" -put to death in true biblical obedience. The Spirit of God is strong in those who become weak, "fear and trembling" is the condition that God demands in order to work through the believer "TO WILL AND ACT ACCORDING TO HIS GOOD PURPOSE" So no the Spirit, does not overrule the "will of self" but obedience is to surrender ones will unto the Will of God, that is manifest through the Holy Spirit in the believer. This is not hard to understand and the scriptures back this position of surrendered will in absolute terms. So not sure where you are finding such strife about what is made so evident?

 

[JLB]

To become enslaved is the word, does that sound like "free-will"?

Let's see what the word teaches.

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

to whom you present yourselves...

Here is the will that is free to choose.

You have a choice to present yourself as a slave to obey.

You have a choice to present yourself as a slave to sin.

That is where the will that is free comes in.

The word has once again brought correction to your misguided doctrine.

Probably well meaning, but misguided never the less.


JLB

 

[JLB]

This is not hard to understand and the scriptures back this position of surrendered will in absolute terms. So not sure where you are finding such strife about what is made so evident?

Who chooses to surrender their will, you or God.

Someone has to choose to surrender, George.

Why is that simple truth so threatening to your doctrine?


JLB

 

[George Muller]

This is not hard to understand and the scriptures back this position of surrendered will in absolute terms. So not sure where you are finding such strife about what is made so evident?

Who chooses to surrender their will, you or God.

Someone has to choose to surrender, George.

Why is that simple truth so threatening to your doctrine?


JLB

Well yes, the overwhelming power and fear of God causes one to surrender. Fear is the beginning of wisdom. If a army chooses to surrender to a stronger force, only pride and foolishness would claim they did it by "free-will"

Again Free-will only proves disobedience not obedience. Yes you are free to resist the Will of God, but to obey is to surrender ones own "free-will" and accept His. This is not hard to understand, and why do you resist the truth to defend such a silly and unbiblical term as "free-will"?

 

[George Muller]

To become enslaved is the word, does that sound like "free-will"?

Let's see what the word teaches.

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

to whom you present yourselves...

Here is the will that is free to choose.

You have a choice to present yourself as a slave to obey.

You have a choice to present yourself as a slave to sin.

That is where the will that is free comes in.

The word has once again brought correction to your misguided doctrine.

Probably well meaning, but misguided never the less.


JLB

Either way you are a "slave" either to the flesh or to the Spirit, "slave" is not free-will
All are slaves to sin until Grace has come and then one can choose to be a "slave" to righteousness, but still a slave- no free will in being a slave.

Its an unbiblical term and has no value as it relates to the obedience of Christ and His Gospel.

 

[JLB]

To become enslaved is the word, does that sound like "free-will"?

Let's see what the word teaches.

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

to whom you present yourselves...

Here is the will that is free to choose.

You have a choice to present yourself as a slave to obey.

You have a choice to present yourself as a slave to sin.

That is where the will that is free comes in.

The word has once again brought correction to your misguided doctrine.

Probably well meaning, but misguided never the less.


JLB

Either way you are a "slave" either to the flesh or to the Spirit, "slave" is not free-will
All are slaves to sin until Grace has come and then one can choose to be a "slave" to righteousness, but still a slave- no free will in being a slave.

Its an unbiblical term and has no value as it relates to the obedience of Christ and His Gospel.

The choice to present oneself is from a will that is free to choose.

JLB

 

[George Muller]

To become enslaved is the word, does that sound like "free-will"?

Let's see what the word teaches.

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

to whom you present yourselves...

Here is the will that is free to choose.

You have a choice to present yourself as a slave to obey.

You have a choice to present yourself as a slave to sin.

That is where the will that is free comes in.

The word has once again brought correction to your misguided doctrine.

Probably well meaning, but misguided never the less.


JLB

Either way you are a "slave" either to the flesh or to the Spirit, "slave" is not free-will
All are slaves to sin until Grace has come and then one can choose to be a "slave" to righteousness, but still a slave- no free will in being a slave.

Its an unbiblical term and has no value as it relates to the obedience of Christ and His Gospel.

The choice to present oneself is from a will that is free to choose.

JLB

Yes one can choose to surrender to the Spirit and the "will" of God, or walk in the self-will and continue in slavery to sin. Either way one is a slave, and a slave does not have free-will. I choose to surrender my will to Gods will and be a slave to righteousness. If I walk in free-will I am a slave to sin and in disobedience to the Cross. Where every thought is to be taken captive to His obedience, see no free-will in obedience but surrendered will.

Like I said an army that chooses to surrender to a greater force is very deceived to call that choice "free-will" it is a choice made according to powers greater than ones one free-will. Sin is greater than mans will, righteousness is greater than mans will, he must choose to be a slave to one or the other. Free-will is not a slave to God and His righteousness but is to choose to be a slave to sin.

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

 

[JLB]

Yes one can choose to surrender to the Spirit and the "will" of God, or walk in the self-will and continue in slavery to sin.

I knew you would come around.

 

[Deborah13]

Yes one can choose to surrender to the Spirit and the "will" of God, or walk in the self-will and continue in slavery to sin.

I knew you would come around.

Hmm....this is what I heard all along from both of you. It's funny about semantics, free will vs self will vs the ability to choose. imo. It really doesn't depend on the WORDS one uses. The description of what one means when they use certain words, is the truth of what they believe.

 

[George Muller]

Yes one can choose to surrender to the Spirit and the "will" of God, or walk in the self-will and continue in slavery to sin.

I knew you would come around.

Hmm....this is what I heard all along from both of you. It's funny about semantics, free will vs self will vs the ability to choose. imo. It really doesn't depend on the WORDS one uses. The description of what one means when they use certain words, is the truth of what they believe.

No doubt Deb, we have been going back and forth and making the same points. My point is this and always has been, that a choice between two options, does not equate to "free-will". We surrender to God because we come to understand that He is God and we are not. We surrender to His Might and strength and thankfully to His mercy. The whole process of obedience to Gods Will is a continued surrender of our own will, a slave to His love. The term "free-will" is just unbiblical in regards to obedience. It is a man-made term, dreamed up to refute certain Calvinist doctrine. It is an error built upon another error. If an army "choses" to surrender to a greater army, rather than to fight and die, then that defeated army goes around claiming "free-will" because they had a "choice" then every one would tell them how silly they are. No surrendered will, is the term that sincere believers should rejoice in. And the glory of His strength and victory over us should be our testimony to the world, not this free-will nonsense.

 

[Classik]

:toofunny :toofunny :toofunny :toofunny Self-will? I just noticed it now. Heavens!!! The OP Topic, I had Free-will in mind and not self-will. Im so sorry

 

[George Muller]

:toofunny :toofunny :toofunny :toofunny Self-will? I just noticed it now. Heavens!!! The OP Topic, I had Free-will in mind and not self-will. Im so sorry

I must go to work but please explain how one can walk in "free-will" and not be in "self" will. If one walks according to what one is "free" to do, then they can are walking in ones "own" will, if one walks in Gods Will, they have surrendered their "own" will unto his. This is just basic common sense and those who hope to hold on to this unbiblical term are not being honest as it relates to what it means to "obey" Gods Will.