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Separation of Church and State, There Is No Such Thing

Lewis

Member
Active humanists and the liberal media have for years undertaken a concentrated effort to misinform the American public by attacking the "Religious Right" and rewriting America's Judeo-Christian history in a humanistic tone. The motto at the heart of the American experiment "in God we trust" has been exchanged for "in Man we trust."


America's Godly HeritageRewriting History
The last three generations of Americans simply have not been told the truth about American history as its Christian heritage has been disparaged.

For example, ask most Americans if the "separation of church and state" is in our Constitution, and they will answer yes. You can scour the Constitution of the United States, and you will NOT find the phrase, "separation of church and state" or anything close to it.

In the Constitution of the Soviet Union, however, the doctrine of the separation of Church and State is found: "In order to ensure to citizens freedom of conscience, the church in the U.S.S.R. is separated from the State, and the school from the church. Freedom of religious worship and freedom of antireligious propaganda is recognized for all citizens" (Article 124). Article Twelve of the 1918 Soviet Constitution decrees that no church or religious organization "shall enjoy the rights of judicial person." Instruction of children under age 18 in religious matters, whether in public or private, is against the law.

While the concept of separation of church and state might be implied by the First Amendment which states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof....", it says nothing about the "separation of church and state." And, even if you accept the principle of the separation of church and state being implied by the First Amendment, it's implication is not there to protect Americans from religion, it is there to protect religious Americans from the government.

In their desire to promote their secular humanist philosophy using the power of government, many liberals today want to alter America's Christian heritage and replace it with the 10 Planks of Communism. They want to remove religion from our history and replace it with the Soviet doctrine of the separation of Church and State. They don't want to safeguard denominational neutrality by the state as the Founders intended, rather they want to eradicate every vestige of religion from our public institutions.


The Educational Establishment
One reason we have lost so many of our religious freedoms is that the liberal educational establishment has worked hard to eliminate our knowledge of the Judeo-Christian heritage of America. The facts nonetheless reveal the true convictions of our founders. Without question, they believed that although no one Christian denomination should dominate the nation, the principles of the Bible and Christianity should underlie our government and American education as well.

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Patrick Henry

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." - U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice, John Jay

"The liberties we talk about defending today were established by men who took their conceptions of man from the great central religious tradition of Western civilization [Christianity], and the liberties we inherit can almost certainly not survive the abandonment of that tradition. The decay of decency in the modern age, the rebellion against law and good faith, the treatment of human beings as things, as mere instruments of power and ambition, is without a doubt the consequence of the decay of the belief in man as someone more than an animal animated by highly conditioned reflexes and chemical reactions. For unless man is something more than that, he has no rights that anyone is bound to respect, and there are no limitations upon his conduct which he is bound to obey. This is the forgotten foundation of democracy." [James Reston, "Faith of Our Fathers, Living Still?" The New York Times, April 2, 1969]

Our children's history books are being rewritten so they no longer hear the truth about the tremendous influence of religious faith on America's founding fathers, on the great documents they drafted to establish a true republic based, on the critical tripod of liberty, life, and family. The revisionist history being taught now is devoid of any reference to the Christian faith of our Founding Fathers as the old stories, the old way that American history was taught, was revised to reflect a more liberal, politically correct, homogenized and multicultural perspective.

Words like duty and honor and country have fallen out of vogue, and the stories of the Christian faith of men like George Washington and Patrick Henry and Noah Webster and so many others, Daniel Webster, Andy Jackson, Chief Justice John Marshall - magnificent Christians - these stories are simply left out.

While many may squabble over who among the founding fathers was a Christian, no knowledgeable historian of early American history can deny the fact that the concept of a Creator God who endowed His creation with "unalienable rights" was an essential underpinning of the American experiment. Indeed, the Declaration of Independence states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." These rights were derived not from a government that was transitory, but from a Governor who was eternal. It was the role of government to defend these rights and not dilute or remove them.

The revisionists extend the influence of their world view outside the classroom as well into nearly every segment of American life. Descriptions and tours of the nation's capitol, for example, fail to point out that the Ten Commandments are inscribed in the marble of the United States Supreme Court, that there is a beautiful stained glass window in the U.S. Capitol depicting President George Washington kneeling in prayer, and that at the top of the Washington Monument - the highest point in the nation's capital is embedded a plaque which boldly proclaims in Latin, "Praise Be Unto God."


Arbitrary Law
In the 1892 Supreme Court ruling in Church of the Holy Trinity vs. U.S. (citing 87 precedents), "Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of Mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian." Throughout history, the U.S. Supreme Court continually cited previous cases in order to maintain our Christian Constitution. However, in 1962, for the first time in American history, the court cited no previous cases and ruled in Engel vs. Vitale that; because of Separation of Church and State, the government needed to be separated from Christian principles. So, the simple school prayer, "Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon thee and we beg thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers, and our country" became unconstitutional and the eradication of Christianity from public institutions began.

Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. [Isaiah 5:20]

The Supreme Court, the President, or Congress do not shoulder the entire blame for these profound changes in the American cultural fabric. Far from it. Indeed, past generations of Christians and other religionists who were not involved in society or who sat silently by as the culture embraced the secular worldview are also greatly responsible.


Restoring America
The future of America will either be a national revival or it's total destruction. We're on the edge now of real national self-destruction. The past few generations of Americans have witnessed the collapse of moral and ethical values unlike any time in our history. We're looking at the very strong probability of economic collapse, unless there is a tremendous change. We're going to spend ourselves, tax ourselves into total oblivion.

If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. [2 Chronicles 7:14]

The essence of what God is requiring of the Christians in America is repentance. If we Christians think that simply by political involvement we're going to turn the country around, we're crazy. If we think that we can adopt an antagonistic triumphalism that says we're going to get organized and throw all the bad guys out and take over, we will be brought face to face with our own sinfulness.

We must recover the original American vision and we must put into practice 2 Chronicles 7:14. Our First Continental Congress understood this concept as is evident in the words of John Jay.

What we need is a Christian nation - compared to the pagan nation we're becoming. By "Christian nation," I don't mean that everyone is forced to be a Christian or forced to go to church or to believe in God. People are free to be Buddhists, atheists, or whatever. The job of government is not to convert or force conversion to any kind of faith. The job of the government is to do for the people what they can't do for themselves. And the job of bringing people to faith belongs to the private citizens, the churches, the synagogues and the religious leaders of our nation. That separation should always be kept. What I mean by a Christian nation is a nation whose laws are self-consciously built on the laws and principles of the Bible.

We have allowed organizations like the ACLU to strip away every vestige of our Christian heritage for long enough. We are tired of them destroying our country by declaring God unconstitutional. Our nation was founded on the principles laid out by the God of the Bible and we're saying ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! Where there is no foundation, there are no laws and what results is anarchy brought forth by moral relativism. Their way has failed. The time has come for us to take back that which once was and let the healing begin.

"Let us look forward to the time when we can take the flag of our country and nail it below the Cross, and there let it wave as it waved in the olden times, and let us gather around it an inscribed for our motto: "Liberty and Union, one and inseparable, now and forever," and exclaim, Christ first, our country next!" -- Andrew Johnson
http://www.jeremiahproject.com/culture/heritage.html
 
While I don't really disagree with anything you have said, I would like to (hopefully) augment it with two thoughts...

1. I would translate "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...." as "Congress shall keep it's nose out of religion, and, since the free exercise of religion cannot be prohibited by ANY law, religion is free to promote itself in the public square."

2. In the end, it is not political activism that will change America. The only thing that will change America is the changing of the hearts of its citizenry. And the only thing that will change the citizenry's hearts to follow God is the Gosepl of Jesus Christ. The more people that FOLLOW Jesus and apply his precepts to their lives, the better every sector of our society would be. I honestly believe the best thing we can do for our nation is to be fishers of men. The rest is secondary.

At least that's the way I see it. Thanks for starting the topic, though. It is a very important one.
 
When we talk about a nation, we talk about that nations government. Israel was a nation, established by God. The USA is not a nation that was established by God. So lets not be deceived into thinking that this nation is under the one true God, because it is not. It is a pipe dream. People who believe that this nation is under God, only believe that this nation is of God. And this nation is not under God, nor was it founded under God.

We read the words of the preamble of the constitution, we will come to a false hope. It was a good idea, no doubt. But an illogical preconceived notion , nonetheless. God did not establish this nation under God, man tried too. What man does, always fails. What God establishes never fails.

Even Israel fell into the temptations of evil, and God established Israel. This is why Israel is not lost. Only put on hold for the time being.

It seems that man wants to be governed by other men, so this nation did that which they originally fought against. The teratism of government is what our founding fathers were against. Yet it is what we have become. What we fought against in war, and many men died for, now we have become that which we fought against. This nation has become the very epitome of what it did not want to become.

Can we say that we have taxation without representation ? I believe that we can say that this is true. We are a nation of taxation, and this nation does not have a vote anymore. We elect gov. officals who no longer ask the people. The majority of this nation no longer has a voice. We vote in new congressmen and a new president every so many years. Yet we still end up with a gov. that dictates to the people, instead of a gov. being by and for the people. Why is it that over 65 % of america is against being in Afganistan ? Why is it that over 65 % of american's are against this new healt care bill ?

If you lived in the 60's as I did. And was a part of the Vietnam war in any aspect. You will remember how much this nation was against the war in Vietnam. The protests were numerous, and the will of the people fell on deaf ears. Finally in the 70's our US Gov. pulled out of Vietnam. You can go there now on vacation if you please. Vietnam is no longer a nation at war. We , the USA is a nation at war . We think we need to police the whole world now.

Really, what has become of this Nation ?
 
I would also like to add. That this nation , the USA is now becoming the Egypt that put Israel under bondage. We need to come out of this nation, not by leaving it. But by changing the heart of this nation. By heart, I mean that Christians should be heard. I am not advocation that Christians take over the government. I am suggesting that Christians speak up.

In my state, which at one time said it would never allow homosexual marriage. Well guess what ? In my state over 65 % are against homosexual marriage. Yet, my state gov. pass the law that homosexuals can get married.

So , remember when you sign up to go to war for this country. You are fighting for the law of this land as well. Which includes the right of a homosexual to get married and hold a valid marriage liscence. That you , the soldier who lays down his life for this country, must recognize, that this is what you fought for.

We are no longer fighting for a freedom. We have freedom already. We are obsessed with being at war. And now , even our borders , like with Canada, are no longer open to go to and fro. We have become a nation that lives and thrives on FEAR !

Wake up America !

ps: And this was my 666 post on this forum, Yikes ! LOL :rolling
 
Mysteryman said:
I would also like to add. That this nation , the USA is now becoming the Egypt that put Israel under bondage. We need to come out of this nation, not by leaving it. But by changing the heart of this nation. By heart, I mean that Christians should be heard. I am not advocation that Christians take over the government. I am suggesting that Christians speak up.

In my state, which at one time said it would never allow homosexual marriage. Well guess what ? In my state over 65 % are against homosexual marriage. Yet, my state gov. pass the law that homosexuals can get married.

So , remember when you sign up to go to war for this country. You are fighting for the law of this land as well. Which includes the right of a homosexual to get married and hold a valid marriage liscence. That you , the soldier who lays down his life for this country, must recognize, that this is what you fought for.

We are no longer fighting for a freedom. We have freedom already. We are obsessed with being at war. And now , even our borders , like with Canada, are no longer open to go to and fro. We have become a nation that lives and thrives on FEAR !

Wake up America !

ps: And this was my 666 post on this forum, Yikes ! LOL :rolling
Hmmmmm
 
This belongs over here.
Ok seekandlisten, thanks for the reply and clear up. There is no such thing as Separation of Church and State, period, people have blown the words of Thomas Jefferson all out of proportion.

No official government document by the founding fathers refers to separation of church and state

Research by David Barton, founder of Wallbuilders, Inc. exposes the alleged separation of church and state for the myth that it really is. The words separation of church and state don't appear in any official government documents authored by the founding fathers. This concept and these particular words were invented by an ACLU attorney named Leo Pfeffer in 1947 in the Supreme Court case of Everson versus Board of Education of Ewing Township. That liberal supreme court imposed it on the nation by a 5 to 4 vote. The ACLU and other anti-Christian organizations and individuals have used it to harass Christians with ever since. It is also used by evolutionists to try to keep a theistic explanation of origins out of the public schools. Many young people today are not aware of the fact that this concept is an ACLU invention, and that it is the extreme opposite of what our founding fathers actually intended. In other words, there is virtually no constitutional support whatsoever for it. Let's examine two of the most common myths about the founding fathers that most public school students are being taught today because of the history revisionists.

According to David Barton of Wallbuilders, Inc., 27 of our nation's 56 founding fathers had Christian seminary degrees! They certainly would have been aware of these directives spelled out in the Bible
verses below about how to select leaders at all levels of government. Unfortunately the history revisionists that write our public school text books have left this important information out of what students are learning today. If you look at most web sites about the founding fathers, you'll also see that it's almost always omitted there as well. There is a deliberate effort on the part of secularists to keep this information from public school students.

Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place [such] over them, [to be] rulers of thousands, [and] rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
Exodus 18:21

And he set judges in the land throughout all the fenced cities of Judah, city by city, And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who [is] with you in the judgment. wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do [it]: for [there is] no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.
2 Chronicles 19:5-7

Myth #1: Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists is the basis for separation of church and state

Some misguided people try to claim that this quote from Thomas Jefferson establishes the "separation of church and state" that we now have today:

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of government reach actions only and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,†thus building a wall of separation between Church and State". 1

The first problem with that assertion is that this quote is not from an official government document. The second is that it was Jefferson's original intent that this meant that the church was to be protected from the government, not the reverse (which is the case today). For more information about this, see:
http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/s ... sourceID=9




Myth #2: The founding fathers were "deists"

This is a common argument used by secular history revisionists that attempts to distract attention away from the fact that the majority of the founding fathers were committed Christians. For more information about why this is a myth, see this link:

http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/s ... ourceID=29

If you watch the video at the link above, fast forward to 20 minutes and 30 seconds into it. There you'll hear Mr. Barton explain that 27 of our nation's 56 founding fathers had Christian seminary degrees! That would hardly qualify them as deists. We're trying to track down a list of exactly who they were. Once we have the list we'll post them on this same page.




Resources that prove the founding fathers intended for this to be a Christian nation

David Barton, founder of Wallbuilders, Inc., gives many seminars each year on this topic. One of them that was given to Compass International, Inc. was videotaped. We have been given permission to video-stream the entire video on our web site (download it from the link at the top of this page). We believe you will be quite surprised by what Mr. Barton has uncovered about the true intentions of our founding fathers on this matter. The majority of the information in his seminars once appeared in public school history books. However, it has since been removed for political correctness reasons by history revisionists. Today, students receive a grossly distorted view of those who founded our country, and what their views actually were concerning the roles of church and state.

We are grateful to Compass International, Inc. for allowing us to video-stream David's video titled America's Founding Fathers: Deists or Christians? on our web site. This video makes reference to a few speeches and documents authored by our founding fathers. Here are links to a some of them:

*

The Mayflower Compact.
*

Founding father William Samuel Johnson's overtly Biblical public school graduation address.
*

Benjamin Franklin is widely regarded to be among the least religious of the founding fathers. However, his speech given to Congress on June 28, 1787 asking that Congress have a prayer every morning before conducting business was overtly religious in nature. The text of this speech can be viewed at the Library of Congress's web site at these links: Page 1, Page 2, Page 3.
*

The Library of Congress web site has a page titled Religion and the Congress of the Confederation, 1774-89. Among the documents listed are the first English language Bible (Aitken's Bible) that Congress officially sanctioned for use by American citizens on September 12, 1782.
*

The October 11, 1782 congressional proclamation that declared Thanksgiving Day a day the nation was to give thanks to God for a variety of blessings.
*

Daniel Webster, one of our founding fathers, emphasized the importance of Christian leaders and Christian principles in civil government.



If they meant for this to be a Christian nation, why isn't Jesus mentioned in the constitution?

The short answer is that it wasn't necessary to. The majority of the founding fathers and American's in general were Christians. As we have seen from the above link to the Mayflower Compact, the main reason this country was founded was so that those Christians could spread the gospel of salvation through Jesus Christ. They viewed the constitution, Bill of Rights and all laws that were passed as a having come from Biblical principles, and that these documents were all subordinate to the Bible. They were well aware of the fact that God had given them and all of mankind very specific litmus tests in the Bible that they needed to apply to all government officials before putting them into positions of power. There wasn't a need to specifically restate these God given mandates because they were already addressed in the more authoritative Bible, and were common knowledge.

The LORD is known [by] the judgment [which] he executeth: the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands. The wicked shall be turned into hell [and] all the nations that forget God. Psalms 9:16-17
http://www.creationists.org/myth-of-the ... state.html
 
I do not know about the Becket Fund, but I do know about the ACLU, and about the damage that they have caused in America.


ACLU vs Christianity

**********************

So now the ACLU has sued the state of North Carolina over using a Bible as the sole source of the Holy Scriptures.


You can immediately see the problem with that… if you are a Christian, that is. The problem, from the standpoint of a Christian, is simply this… the Bible IS the sole source of the Holy Scriptures! The acceptance of any other collection of inspirational verses, as Holy Scripture, is a sin for those of the Christian faith.


If a Moslem, or a Hindu, for instance, wishes NOT to swear on a Bible, here in North Carolina, … he or she can simple “affirm†they will testify to the truth. That is acceptable in this state. The same option is offered for those chosen for jury duty. Many Christians feel that “swearing on the Bible†is a sin. For those, the State offers the “affirmationâ€.


There is something very wrong about this lawsuit. It is blatantly anti-Christian.


I simply do not believe this lawsuit by the ACLU, against North Carolina, is about the right to swear on your chosen “Holy Scripturesâ€. No, it has become clear to those of the Judea-Christian faith, in the United States, over the past few years, that the ACLU is bent on destroying any, and all, vestiges of the Jewish faith and/or the Christian faith in America.


Why does the ACLU hate us so much? Why do they see us as a threat so potent that they feel they must destroy us? Because, the Judeo-Christian religion IS a threat to the ACLU. Christians are anti-Socialist and anti-Communist. Christians are the natural enemy of the ACLU. And they know it. They have been coming after us since their founding in 1920. Many of the founders of the ACLU were members of, or had association with, the Communist Party of the USA. It would seem their goals have changed little since their founding. They still never miss a chance to strike out at Christian activity anywhere in the US. It leads one to believe their purpose is to eradicate the Christian religion in the USA. They have made a grand start.


Here is what the noted Communist Joseph Stalin said: “America, is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within.â€


Today, as in the past, we see the ACLU attacking America’s Patriotism, America’s Morality and America’s Spiritual Life. A coincidence? It would be a stretch to convince one’s self that it is.


The ACLU does not just dislike Christians… they hate us! As Christians, we are their chief enemy. Yet many professed Christians hold membership in the ACLU. How can this be? Even the Romans had no help from the early Christians in their campaign to destroy Christianity. But the ACLU does have it… in spades! Our “liberal churches†have opened the door for their own destruction and are actively aiding in the campaign against the “Faith of our Fathersâ€â€¦ the Judeo-Christian faith.


Here in North Carolina they have struck another blow against the Jew and the Christian. The war to eradicate Christianity, in the US, is as real today as it was during the day of Nero in ancient Rome. Only, the ACLU has replaced the lions in today’s coliseum.


The war rages, between good and evil, as it has since Eden. However, I have read The Book, and the Christians win!


Longstreet
 
lewis if you are going to promote the u.s army at least add army strong to that.

i will always like be all you can be. cause i'm from that time period.

of course, the aclu hates us.

they always have.
 
lewis, the church shouldn't be the state, i think you would agree. but that doesnt mean freedom from religion.

the church should be the conscience of the state.


that is where the church has failed and also been out of place . we have lost that in the american society. read the book common sense and even Paine says that the church is the conscience of state.
 
jasoncran said:
lewis, the church shouldn't be the state, i think you would agree. but that doesnt mean freedom from religion.

the church should be the conscience of the state.


that is where the church has failed and also been out of place . we have lost that in the american society. read the book common sense and even Paine says that the church is the conscience of state.


I agree Jason ! :salute

I am sure no one cares, but just for the record, I was in the Army also. In the late 60's. Brother killed in Vietnam, younger brother who never saw his 19th birthday. A Marine.
 
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