Separation of Church & State: Is the USA a Christian Nation?

[cyberjosh]

I recently found a very interesting quote from the Treaty of Tripoli signed by the US government in 1797, as a newly founded nation, which explicitly states that they did not consider themselves a Christian nation at that time. I have the exact quote the the front page of my website here (alternate link here) along with an audio file where I voiced my thoughts on the quote, and also took the opportunity to consider if the US truly is a Christian nation and consider the matter of separation of Church and State. If you like you can listen to it (it is about 20 minutes long though), where I just sort of brain dumped and spoke my mind. I may not be accurate on every detail but those are my current opinions on the topic.

As I explain in the recording though, I actually was quite surprised to find an early official US document professing that it was in "no sense" founded on the Christian religion, which I believe to be a stretch if it is suggesting that this means no influence upon it.

Your thoughts?

 

[veteran]

Have you considered that document might be a hoax, especially if it seeks to make such a specific declaration against being a Christian nation? In today's time, such a hoax could be expected.

There's enough documents and language of the founding fathers, and in state constitutions that show the U.S. was founded upon Christian principles from The Bible. My ancestors on one side were French Huguenots (early French Protestants which fought against Catholic control in France). There's several Huguenot societies in America that could weigh in on the early Christian history of America. Many Europeans came to the American colonies under the endenture system to flee religious persecution.

Worldnetdaily news website has a bookstore with some re-published out-of-print books documenting America's Christian history also. Artisan Publishers has some of those old works reprinted too. Used to be another online bookstore called American Opinion Book Store (AOBS).

Might care to research the old "Blue Laws" in early America which followed Biblical law pretty close.

Beware of the 'revisionists' out there which seek to tear away the Christian foundation and history of The United States of America.

 

[randon]

There are Christians, and there are nations. But is there ever really any such thing as a "Christian nation"?

 

[LostSoul]

I once thought the U.S. was. Not anymore. The morals of the people clearly shows that. Not to mention, if you take one look at our leaders....it is a poor reflection.

 

[Sinthesis]

God doesn't force one to be Saved. Thus, the founding fathers applied this Christian principle to the USA with the result that in a free marketplace of ideas, Jesus' salvation is available to all those who seek it out, and in the particular flavor they need. The USA is not a Christian nation, but its religious freedoms allow for the fair display of the Truth of Christianity for all to see. Also on display is the 'truth' of any other religions. The result is a majority of US citizens identify themselves as Christians.

Jesus doesn't need the US government to do His work, He has the Body of Christ for that.

 

[cyberjosh]

Have you considered that document might be a hoax, especially if it seeks to make such a specific declaration against being a Christian nation? In today's time, such a hoax could be expected.

Actually it is not a hoax. I read an article about someone who went to the library of congress to see it with their own eyes. Also there are pictures of the document. I will try to post the link later. The man who drafted the document though was not a Christian. I have one link in that article on the front page of my website to a full quotation of the relevant section and some history about it.

 

[Mysteryman]

I once thought the U.S. was. Not anymore. The morals of the people clearly shows that. Not to mention, if you take one look at our leaders....it is a poor reflection.

I can see that you were too young to remember the 60's.

The people said - make love not war

The gov. said make war not peace

And the gov. was just as corrupt then as it is now. Don't you remember the President who wanted to go to the moon ? Well, we got there, and found nothing. Spent all that money so that we could claim to be the first. Pride ! And guess what , we are still looking for life on other planets. Nothing has changed , except that a dollar then was worth about 90 cents, and today a dollar is worth about a nickle.

 

[LostSoul]

I once thought the U.S. was. Not anymore. The morals of the people clearly shows that. Not to mention, if you take one look at our leaders....it is a poor reflection.

I can see that you were too young to remember the 60's.

The people said - make love not war

The gov. said make war not peace

And the gov. was just as corrupt then as it is now. Don't you remember the President who wanted to go to the moon ? Well, we got there, and found nothing. Spent all that money so that we could claim to be the first. Pride ! And guess what , we are still looking for life on other planets. Nothing has changed , except that a dollar then was worth about 90 cents, and today a dollar is worth about a nickle.

Yes, I am young and stupid. What can I say....? I had hopes, high hopes. Just goes to show I have a lot of growing still to do....

 

[Mysteryman]

I once thought the U.S. was. Not anymore. The morals of the people clearly shows that. Not to mention, if you take one look at our leaders....it is a poor reflection.

I can see that you were too young to remember the 60's.

The people said - make love not war

The gov. said make war not peace

And the gov. was just as corrupt then as it is now. Don't you remember the President who wanted to go to the moon ? Well, we got there, and found nothing. Spent all that money so that we could claim to be the first. Pride ! And guess what , we are still looking for life on other planets. Nothing has changed , except that a dollar then was worth about 90 cents, and today a dollar is worth about a nickle.

Yes, I am young and stupid. What can I say....? I had hopes, high hopes. Just goes to show I have a lot of growing still to do....

We shouldn't let what our gov. effect us. Governments throughout history have been corrupt. This nation is no more a Godly nation than any other nation.

We have laws just like other nations do. And we make claims about morality just like other nations do. We collect taxes just as they did in the day of Jesus when his parent had to pay taxes. We have a false sense of security when we rely upon our government. Every government throughout history has failed in some way. Why do we think this government is not going to fail ? Are we that naive ?

 

[WordSwordsman]

The USA was founded as a constitutional republic on the basis of constitutional laws made by elected representatives of the states. Muslim nations were founded upon Islam and largely sharia interpretation of Islamic law. Technically the Treaty of Tripoli presented the legal truth that the US government did not represent Christianity, and that is the truth today. It was a briefly worded document, fortunately not having to give much more detail concerning the connection of the lawmakers to Christianity, or that Christianity was and remains the dominant religion. I don't think the Arabs knew that, and wonder how they would have responded to the US. The main point of Article 11 was the US was not approaching them on the basis of a "Christian nation", as that basis in itself would have made it impossible to say the US had no conflict with Islam or Muslims in general.

For people who have actually read and studied the wealth of documents revealing the ideals of the founders of America there would be no argument as to their inspiration from Christianity. Most were Christian, many with seminary degrees, some preachers. The Library of Congress is not hiding the Christian foundation principles expressed in the forming of our Constitutional Republic, which with or without a religion, could not be based on any particular religion. It's all readily available online. One source of interest is http://www.whateveristrue.com/heritage/ where there's a wealth of links.

There is no language in official documents separating Church and State. The First Amendment guarantees rights of any religion to operate without State control, and protects State from having to adopt a national religion such as Christianity or Islam. Religion has no less rights than the Press. If religion can be shoved out of government affairs, then the government can be free from inquiry by the Press.

 

[LostSoul]

We shouldn't let what our gov. effect us. Governments throughout history have been corrupt. This nation is no more a Godly nation than any other nation.

We have laws just like other nations do. And we make claims about morality just like other nations do. We collect taxes just as they did in the day of Jesus when his parent had to pay taxes. We have a false sense of security when we rely upon our government. Every government throughout history has failed in some way. Why do we think this government is not going to fail ? Are we that naive ?

As I said before....I get the picture I am stupid, if not niave...or undereducated. It is nothing new to me....if my views are not those of someone else I am wrong. Consider the concept well grasped. Now I bow out...I have taken all the insult I can take.

 

[veteran]

Well said WordSwordsman.

Et al, I didn't know we were talking about whether the U.S. was a Christian state theocracy, for example, like Spain. In Spain (at least up to 1979 when I was last there), if born there you were to be raised Catholic per joint State/Church control. I know this because I almost got married to a Spanish national then, and would have had to sign a legal document saying I would raise my children in the Catholic Church. That was enforced by the government of Spain. Legal marriage and divorce was only decided by that joint authority also. Of course not all people followed the Catholic Church of Spain in their lives, but legally, they were still under its power and influence there. The United States was never meant to be like that, and that's not all what it means to be "a Christian nation" anyway.

When the majority of the people join together and agree to be ruled by Christian principles from The Bible, especially Christian principles from Christ as a moral device in interpreting and administering the law, then that most definitely is evidence of a Christian nation. I don't expect later generations after the '60's are much aware of America's early history of using Christian principles as that method of measure, so the condition of the U.S. today can hardly be compared to that early history, especially the times of the American colonists.

Researching the 'Blue laws' is a good way to discover just how many states in the U.S. enforced Sabbath day laws, which is one such evidence of the people in individual U.S. states deciding what laws they will live under. There's still dry counties in my state where alchohol cannot be bought or served on Sundays. That comes from Christian Sabbath interpretation influence upon local law. There used to be a lot more counties in my state that observed those blue laws on Sunday, not that many decades ago.

Now a good question would be, just how could the states and local governments enforce those Blue laws back then and not have the Federal government step in to say they can't? Because like WordSwordsman said, the 1st Ammendment of the U.S. Constitution protects the people's religous freedoms. It's groups like the ACLU, etc., that have been busy abusing the Federal system to stomp upon states rights to try and prevent Christians from exercising their Constitutional right to freedom of religion and religious speech (i.e., Judge Roy Moore's stance in Alabama for having a Ten Commandments monument on public soil). Per the U.S. Constitution, there's something like 17 specific powers the Federal government has authority in over the states, but all other powers are reserved to the states themselves and to the people. Many today have forgotten that separation of powers.

In the early American colonies, the centers of learning, universities, were run by the Churches. This is why many of the oldest U.S. universities are still connected with the Churches. And quite a few them have very liberal programs now, some even outright teaching socialism and non-Christian principles, just for education's sake. That's a litmus check on how far away from Christ many in our nation have fallen today. So just because it's difficult today to see the U.S. as a Christian nation, or because socialists/atheists or groups like the ACLU deny it ever was, they have yet to destroy all the evidence that the U.S. was once a Christian nation being governed upon Christian principles. And who today is going to take the time to go back in history of the U.S. to find that out? It's much easier to just agree with the media and history revisionists.

 

[cyberjosh]

There are Christians, and there are nations. But is there ever really any such thing as a "Christian nation"?

I think your question is on the right track, but as I talk about in my audio recording on my site I reject the idea that a religion such as Christianity must be "State sponsored" (such as in England & Norway) for a nation to be "Christian". I define it as a cultural identity. Listen to the audio file if you want to discuss it. I would welcome comments on my thoughts there.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[happyjoy]

There are Christians, and there are nations. But is there ever really any such thing as a "Christian nation"?

I think your question is on the right track, but as I talk about in my audio recording on my site I reject the idea that a religion such as Christianity must be "State sponsored" (such as in England & Norway) for a nation to be "Christian". I define it as a cultural identity. Listen to the audio file if you want to discuss it. I would welcome comments on my thoughts there.

God Bless,

~Josh

The U.S. is not a Christian nation because there is no single Christianity. Ask a hundred people what a Christian believes and you will get a hundred different answers. Many of the answers will be diametrically opposed to one another. The theories range from Fred Phelps to to Benny Hinn to Pat Robertson.

 

[cyberjosh]

There are Christians, and there are nations. But is there ever really any such thing as a "Christian nation"?

I think your question is on the right track, but as I talk about in my audio recording on my site I reject the idea that a religion such as Christianity must be "State sponsored" (such as in England & Norway) for a nation to be "Christian". I define it as a cultural identity. Listen to the audio file if you want to discuss it. I would welcome comments on my thoughts there.

God Bless,

~Josh

The U.S. is not a Christian nation because there is no single Christianity. Ask a hundred people what a Christian believes and you will get a hundred different answers. Many of the answers will be diametrically opposed to one another. The theories range from Fred Phelps to to Benny Hinn to Pat Robertson.

But you cannot broaden it too much because then you begin saying that no one can define themselves as a Christian. Despite the variety of doctrinal differences I think two prime factors come into a genuine Christian life, that can be put in the form of questions:

1. Are you justified by faith in the blood of Jesus Christ and your sins atoned for?
2. Are you walking in the Spirit and bearing good fruit? (Jesus said by their fruit you shall know them)

While Christians can go through periods of backsliding and not bearing good fruit, for anything short of apostasy we shall always be justified by our faith.

I have a feeling that this question, explored in any more depth, however will exceed the boundaries of this thread's topic.

 

[jasoncran]

i remember prayer in school and the ten commandments. yes our society was based on christian ideas at one time, but all that's happened to america, the apostate church and you and me are to blame.(for the most part).

we could have stood up to the prayers in school being removed, or the legaliztion of abortion. and so on.

 

[Elijah674]

Matt. 22
[17] Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?
[18] But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
[19] Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
[20] And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
[21] They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
+
Acts 5
27-29 (Read it in the K.J.) Finds that Caesar is to keep his paws out of God's way! If one understood Rom. 13 they would find the only thing about Gods Law that Caesar is to be involved in, is the Second Table of the Covenant. Our duty to mankind.

And surely God has blessed USA because they have stay out of FORCED Religeon. (but it will 'soon' change as prophesied! from lamblike to dragon) When Caesar/Church violate the First Table.. of the four Commandments, it is then that Acts 5:27-29 applies! 666

--Elijah

 

[jasoncran]

god didnt call the church to be a state but it can the societies consciensce and that's what the writer of the book of common sense states (thomas paine) btw he didnt believe in the bible but was of the age of reason thinking.

 

[JamesG]

.
The Christian Nation


There is only one Christian nation. It is called the Kingdom of God. All who are in Jesus Christ are citizens of that nation. For these believers it is the Kingdom of the Son or of Jesus Christ. That is the only Christian nation. It is not of this world, but it is in this world wherever there are believers. All believers are intended to be ambassadors from the Kingdom of God to the nations of the world. Not in the sense of missionaries. Rather, in the sense of being ambassadors to the part of the nation wherein they reside.

America a Christian nation? That Christians would believe such a thing is ludicrous. The fact that Christians live in America doesn’t make it anymore a Christian nation than the fact that Christians living in Israel makes Israel a Christian nation. Even if a majority of Americans call themselves Christian, which they do not, it makes no difference.

The Constitution itself shows that America was never intended to be a Christian nation. There is nothing mentioned about God or Christianity whatsoever in the Constitution. The only reason that religion, not God or Christianity, is mentioned in the first amendment is because some states refused to ratify the constitution if it wasn’t added. They didn’t want a repeat of jolly old England wherein one religion was the State religion, and continues to be so to the present day. The only difference today in England is that the State religion does not persecute all of the other religions.

Former President Theodore Roosevelt was against putting “In God We Trust†on American money because he felt it would degrade God. The attempt to put this phrase on money didn’t initially happen until the time of the Civil war and didn’t last long at that time. It didn’t get put on the money again until the early 1950’s, around the same time that “under God†was put in the Pledge of Allegiance. There are those who are attempting to rectify this matter claiming that it is a violation of the separation of Church and State.

The Public School System is presently a part of the State. Supreme Court decisions of the last fifty years prove beyond a doubt that this has been so for at least that long. Anything that is in the State Public School System that is part of one particular religious system is an offense to all other religious systems, as well as to Atheists. Prayer was removed from the Public School System for that reason. The phrase “under God†will someday be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance for the same reason. Christians who are bothered by that should remember that they are still free to attend Christian Schools.

The fact that abortion continues to be allowed in America after fifty years shows that the laws of America are not Christian. Otherwise, someone would have found the Christian-like laws in American Judicial Law that would have removed the allowance of Abortion.

Christians say that we need to return America back to its roots. I say that they have no reason for concern. It has been happening for decades. America is returning back to its Atheistic roots.

I for one am thankful to God for the current interpretation of the first amendment called the separation between Church and State. It allows the State to leave religious people alone. And it is further interpreted to mean that religious people are to leave the State alone. But if the militant Christians have their way, that isn’t going to last much longer. They are in the process of provoking the State into a reaction. And reactions always exceed the original action. If the militant Christians succeed, all of the Christians who outwardly proclaim their faith will be put in jail as agitators or worse. Not quite the result the militant Christians are expecting. I’m looking for a good comfortable well hidden cave, just in case the militant Christians are successful in provoking the State into a reaction. Or for that matter, just in case the followers of the militant Atheist Richard Dawkins get their way.

JamesG

 

[veteran]

There are Christians, and there are nations. But is there ever really any such thing as a "Christian nation"?

I think your question is on the right track, but as I talk about in my audio recording on my site I reject the idea that a religion such as Christianity must be "State sponsored" (such as in England & Norway) for a nation to be "Christian". I define it as a cultural identity. Listen to the audio file if you want to discuss it. I would welcome comments on my thoughts there.

God Bless,

~Josh

When Christ died on the cross, and The Gospel was preached, the nations of western Europe and Asia Minor became de facto Christian nations, most of them with a king and queen in the role of "Defender of The Faith". Many of the original founders of the U.S. came from that Christian background, even though not all of them were of Faith. God prophesied in His Word that He would preserve a remnant that would know His Truth, and He did. The people of early colonial America were descendents of that.

I'm not a betting man, but most of the familes today descended from those people of early colonial America are probably still Christian families, and that even though some of its members refuse the Faith. Likewise, because many Bible principles are still evident in U.S. Civil Law, our nation is still following principles established by God's Word. Just because not all the U.S. founders were Christian has nothing to do with the original stamp of Christianity upon the U.S.

Islam is trying to change the source of law in some European countries today. If they succeed in removing the stamp of Christianity upon our nations, and the Christian nations of Europe, then we will certainly know that our nation once had been a Christian nation.