Seven Seals -- Not Given In Chronological Order

[Watchman_2]

I never said the 6:2 and 19:12 crowns were the same. I proved your word study argument that...

("Thus, if the 6:2 rider is the same, the 6:2 rider would wear the same crown as the 19:11-12 rider.")

...therefore...

("The rider of the Rev. 6:2 white horse is Satan.")

...is garbage because the 6:2 rider wears the same crown as Jesus. You have just further disproved your argument when you note that Jesus wears the same crowns as the Beast.:rolling

That is exactly how you folks will fall for Satan's endtime deception! You think Christ will return wearing the same thorny crown given to Him at His crucifixion by the Romans; whereas, Rev. 19 makes it clear that Christ does not wear the crown of derision -- but, He wears many crowns as the KING OF KINGS.

Satan takes advantage of those like you, who are prone for deception, by appearing as the resurrected Lamb. Yet, God gives a further clue, which should alert you folks to the fact that this rider is an imposter -

Rev 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
​

As is plainly written, the rider of this white horse does not bring the thorny crown given at the crucifixion time [Mat. 27:29], but is given this crown. If this rider was the true Christ and not the imposter christ, there would be no need to give him a crown at all -- he should already have it.

The study of 'crowns' only proves that the 6:2 rider is Satan.

 

[Watchman_2]

Agreed... i think i will take a lesson from billy joel here ( never argue with a madman).

I didn't see your apology for your insolence!

 

[warhorse]

I didn't see your apology for your insolence!

I didnt post it for a reason, i dont owe you an apology. You are choking on your own pride and i am not going to waste any more time with you.

 

[Watchman_2]

I didnt post it for a reason, i dont owe you an apology. You are choking on your own pride and i am not going to waste any more time with you.

You confuse pride with assuredness.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
​

You act as if I should be ashamed for knowing the Truth.

 

[D4Christ]

Greetings Brothers/Sisters,
(NLT versions used)

Tackling the 7 seals is a giant task, and I think it is too much to try to discuss all of them at once. I will admit upfront that I do believe that the seals, (trumpet and bowel judgments) happen chronologically. But in looking at the 1st seal only, I can see truth in both arguements.

However, imho, the identification of the rider is in Rev 6 has little to do with how the word "crown" is defined. It has already been proven that "crown", G1238, is used when referring to Christ and to the beast. Likewise, "crown" G4735 is used when referring to the rider of the white horse (Rev 6:2), the 24 elders (Rev 4:4), locusts (Rev 9:7) and the woman (Rev 12:1).

A better reference to who this rider is compare what he does versus what we know Christ does and how he is presented.

Rev 6:2

2 I looked up and saw a white horse standing there. Its rider carried a bow, and a crown was placed on his head. He rode out to win many battles and gain the victory.

Rev 19

11 Then I saw heaven opened, and a white horse was standing there. Its rider was named Faithful and True, for he judges fairly and wages a righteous war. 12 His eyes were like flames of fire, and on his head were many crowns. A name was written on him that no one understood except himself. 13 He wore a robe dipped in blood, and his title was the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven, dressed in the finest of pure white linen, followed him on white horses. 15 From his mouth came a sharp sword to strike down the nations. He will rule them with an iron rod. He will release the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty, like juice flowing from a winepress. 16 On his robe at his thigh was written this title: King of all kings and Lord of all lords.

The rider in 6:2 has a (indicating one) crown placed on him. This rider's authority comes into effect when the crown is placed on his head. He carries a bow.

We know that in Rev 19 the rider has multiple crowns already on his head indicating that his authority was already in place when he is revealed. He had no bow but has a sword.

The rider in 6:2 went out to win many battles. Since many does not mean all, we can deduce that if he won many, he also lost some. The rider in 19 did not ride out into many battles...he waged a war. He dominated and killed all of his enemies (v 21). There is no indication that he had any loses or failures.

There is also this important fact in verse 15,

15 From his mouth came a sharp sword to strike down the nations. He will rule them with an iron rod. He will release the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty, like juice flowing from a winepress.

If the rider's purpose is to release the wrath of God, then we know that the rider in 6:2 does not do this. In fact, the Lamb, who we know releases the wrath does not reveal this wrath until verse 17.

15 Then everyone—the kings of the earth, the rulers, the generals, the wealthy, the powerful, and every slave and free person—all hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 And they cried to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to survive?â€

If the rider in verse 2 brought the wrath of God, no one acknowledged it until the sixth seal was broken and the signs for the DOTL were revealed.

These discrepancies indicate to me that the rider who had a crown placed on his head, (ie. authority given to him) and who rode out to battle and gain victory is the AC. The AC at the midpoint of the 70th week is given power to conquer the saints of God and is given power (at an appointed time) and authority to rule over every nation and tongue.

Christ promised us in Matt 24 that this war that AC is waging against the saints would be cut short. When our anguish is over Christ tells us that we will see signs in the heavens... the same signs seen at the sixth seal, letting us know that the Son of Man has arrived. For the unbeleivers there is anguish becasue they know Christ brings wrath, for the believers the sign is a source of joy because we know Christ brings our rescue and reward.


Dee

 

[warhorse]

Greetings Brothers/Sisters,
(NLT versions used)

Tackling the 7 seals is a giant task, and I think it is too much to try to discuss all of them at once. I will admit upfront that I do believe that the seals, (trumpet and bowel judgments) happen chronologically. But in looking at the 1st seal only, I can see truth in both arguements.

However, imho, the identification of the rider is in Rev 6 has little to do with how the word "crown" is defined. It has already been proven that "crown", G1238, is used when referring to Christ and to the beast. Likewise, "crown" G4735 is used when referring to the rider of the white horse (Rev 6:2), the 24 elders (Rev 4:4), locusts (Rev 9:7) and the woman (Rev 12:1).

A better reference to who this rider is compare what he does versus what we know Christ does and how he is presented.

Rev 6:2


Rev 19


The rider in 6:2 has a (indicating one) crown placed on him. This rider's authority comes into effect when the crown is placed on his head. He carries a bow.

We know that in Rev 19 the rider has multiple crowns already on his head indicating that his authority was already in place when he is revealed. He had no bow but has a sword.

The rider in 6:2 went out to win many battles. Since many does not mean all, we can deduce that if he won many, he also lost some. The rider in 19 did not ride out into many battles...he waged a war. He dominated and killed all of his enemies (v 21). There is no indication that he had any loses or failures.

There is also this important fact in verse 15,


If the rider's purpose is to release the wrath of God, then we know that the rider in 6:2 does not do this. In fact, the Lamb, who we know releases the wrath does not reveal this wrath until verse 17.



If the rider in verse 2 brought the wrath of God, no one acknowledged it until the sixth seal was broken and the signs for the DOTL were revealed.

These discrepancies indicate to me that the rider who had a crown placed on his head, (ie. authority given to him) and who rode out to battle and gain victory is the AC. The AC at the midpoint of the 70th week is given power to conquer the saints of God and is given power (at an appointed time) and authority to rule over every nation and tongue.

Christ promised us in Matt 24 that this war that AC is waging against the saints would be cut short. When our anguish is over Christ tells us that we will see signs in the heavens... the same signs seen at the sixth seal, letting us know that the Son of Man has arrived. For the unbeleivers there is anguish becasue they know Christ brings wrath, for the believers the sign is a source of joy because we know Christ brings our rescue and reward.


Dee

So what is your take on the fourth horsemen

 

[Lloyd]

You confuse pride with assuredness.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
​

You act as if I should be ashamed for knowing the Truth.

Hey...

You need to relax with asking for apologies. If you speak truth then be thankful to God that you have knowledge and understanding, don't go demanding apologies from people. Christ, our King never once demanded an apology yet you're asking for one? Does your knowledge come from yourself or has God blessed you? I would be thankful to God and advise others - you have received nothing from your own understanding, God has given you the gifts you have. If you are helping others to see things more clearly, then be patient and continue to strive for the truth, but be humble and don't let pride swallow the goodness you have.

God bless and keep posting.

Lloyd

 

[D4Christ]

So what is your take on the fourth horsemen

Despite how long winded I was on the first horseman ;), I have no particular "take" on horsemans 2-4.

Rev 6

2nd Seal War
3 When the Lamb broke the second seal, I heard the second living being say, “Come!†4 Then another horse appeared, a red one. Its rider was given a mighty sword and the authority to take peace from the earth. And there was war and slaughter everywhere.

3rd Seal Famine
5 When the Lamb broke the third seal, I heard the third living being say, “Come!†I looked up and saw a black horse, and its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice from among the four living beings say, “A loaf of wheat bread or three loaves of barley will cost a day’s pay. And don’t waste the olive oil and wine.â€

4th SEAL: Death by Sword
7 When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the fourth living being say, “Come!†8 I looked up and saw a horse whose color was pale green. Its rider was named Death, and his companion was the Grave. These two were given authority over one-fourth of the earth, to kill with the sword and famine and disease and wild animals.

Since the 1st horseman is the only one given a crown, he seems to be the authority figure of the group. The rest of the horses seem to be released to do his bidding. This seems to mirror how the Father operates. He issues decrees and then passes his orders on to the Son who will then issue angels to accomplish the tasks.

The 4th horseman in particular seems to be the one in charge of murder. Who are they murdering? It would seem that we get our answer in the 5th seal.

5th Seal Martyrs
9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of all who had been martyred for the word of God and for being faithful in their testimony. 10 They shouted to the Lord and said, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you judge the people who belong to this world and avenge our blood for what they have done to us?†11 Then a white robe was given to each of them. And they were told to rest a little longer until the full number of their brothers and sisters—their fellow servants of Jesus who were to be martyred—had joined them.

This is the portion of the Great Tribulation in which Christ warns us in Matt 24 that if he did not step in cut short the GT none of the elect would survive.

Understanding the seals in this manner helped me realize one important thing....the opening of the seals does not have to be dragged out over a period of years....that's a director's cut. Once they begin to be opened 3.5 years into the 70th week, I suspect that they will open rather quickly. With all the power and authority the AC has been given from God, it is no wonder that his reign over the saints of God had to be cut short. Think about all Hitler was able to accomplish with his limited technology and scope compared to the GPS, computers and tracking technology of today and it becomes easy to see that a modern day Hitler (AC) with the power of delusion and authority, could easily wipe out God's followers in a relatively short time.

So, it is my opinion that while the AC has 42 months to rule those who belong to this world, he won't have nearly that much time to slaughter God's people. Therefore the seals would need to be opened rather quickly in order to give God's people relief from the ACs reign.

Blessings,
Deirdre

 

[Proverbs3/5]

The 7 seals are not given in chronolgical order! That's why the term 'seal' is used. There is no particular order in removing seals to a scroll in order to read the contents thereof.

Sorry, but your entire belief is debunked by the TRUTH about how a scroll is sealed.
No need to look any further for the truth. God's WORD is true and yes, the seals are in perfect order, just as the Holy Spirit inspired John to write them.

 

[Watchman_2]

Sorry, but your entire belief is debunked by the TRUTH about how a scroll is sealed.
No need to look any further for the truth. God's WORD is true and yes, the seals are in perfect order, just as the Holy Spirit inspired John to write them.

You always have the right to be wrong! Denial is not an argument.

BTW, the scroll is being UNSEALED -- not sealed. There is no particular order to unseal a scroll.

 

[Proverbs3/5]

You always have the right to be wrong!

Yes I do, and so do you!
However, God's WORD is never wrong!

BTW, the scroll is being UNSEALED -- not sealed. There is no particular order to unseal a scroll.

There may be no particular order in which many scrolls could be opened (unsealed), but John CLEARLY states the order in which Jesus opened the seals on the scroll (parenthesis mine):

Rev 6:1 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals (obviously the first seal) ; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, "Come and see."
Rev 6:2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
Rev 6:3 When He opened the second (after the first, and before the third) seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come and see."
Rev 6:4 Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.
Rev 6:5 When He opened the third (see the pattern here?) seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come and see." So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.
Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine."

Rev 6:7 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature (the forth creature of the forth seal: same pattern!) saying, "Come and see."
Rev 6:8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.
Rev 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

It seems YOU Watchman_2 are wrong about the order of the seals being opened. All seven seals were opened in the order that John saw them opened by Jesus. I (and many others) choose to believe God's WORD as the final authority, not you. By your saying that the order of the opening of the seals is any different than what John wrote by the power of the Holy Spirit, you are saying that God's WORD is wrong. That is not a wise thing to do.

 

[Watchman_2]

Yes I do, and so do you!
However, God's WORD is never wrong!

True enough! However, when you don't provide an argument as to why you think that I am in error, there is nothing relevant to reply to except to let you know that you are wrong.

There may be no particular order in which many scrolls could be opened (unsealed), but John CLEARLY states the order in which Jesus opened the seals on the scroll (parenthesis mine):

Rev 6:1 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals (obviously the first seal) ; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, "Come and see."
Rev 6:2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
Rev 6:3 When He opened the second (after the first, and before the third) seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come and see."
Rev 6:4 Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.
Rev 6:5 When He opened the third (see the pattern here?) seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come and see." So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.
Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine."

Rev 6:7 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature (the forth creature of the forth seal: same pattern!) saying, "Come and see."
Rev 6:8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.
Rev 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

It seems YOU Watchman_2 are wrong about the order of the seals being opened. All seven seals were opened in the order that John saw them opened by Jesus. I (and many others) choose to believe God's WORD as the final authority, not you. By your saying that the order of the opening of the seals is any different than what John wrote by the power of the Holy Spirit, you are saying that God's WORD is wrong. That is not a wise thing to do.

I am well aware of the listed order of the seals in Rev. I already provided the viewers with the bases for understanding that the listed order is not the chronological order. See the OP.

In addition, there is nothing in the manuscript language of the words rendered as 'second', 'third', 'fourth', 'fifth', 'sixth', and 'seventh' which locks them into the sole meaning of 'time', as you errantly assumed. I will provide you 'second' for an example -

G1208
δεύτερος
deuteros
dyoo'-ter-os
As the compound of G1417; (ordinal) second (in time, place or rank; also adverbially): - afterward, again, second (-arily, time).
​

The same applies to all the other ordinal references.

If you look at the OP, I did not state the Lamb opened the seals in any other order than listed. It is just that the events documented in each seal are not listed in chronological order. They are simply truths.

If you allowed God's Word to be the final authority, then you would be congratulating me for such an inspired OP. But, since you are arguing with me, it is fair to conclude that you do not allow God's Word to be the final authority.

Any good Bible student can see that the events documented in the seals do not match up chronologically with the same events detailed elsewhere in scripture. Hence, the seals cannot possibly be given in chronological order.

 

[Proverbs3/5]

Watchman_2, it really doesn't matter to me what you believe. Your argument is not with me, it is with God's WORD. Your belief does NOT change the truth already revealed in Scripture. It is obvious to me that you do not take God's WORD seriously, by changing the chronology of the events that the Holy Spirit inspired John to write. Besides, I will not be here on earth to see the events as they unfold (or let us say unseal). You will just have to see for yourself when that day arrives that God's order is correct, and yours was wrong.

 

[Watchman_2]

Watchman_2, it really doesn't matter to me what you believe. Your argument is not with me, it is with God's WORD. Your belief does NOT change the truth already revealed in Scripture. It is obvious to me that you do not take God's WORD seriously, by changing the chronology of the events that the Holy Spirit inspired John to write. Besides, I will not be here on earth to see the events as they unfold (or let us say unseal). You will just have to see for yourself when that day arrives that God's order is correct, and yours was wrong.

Actually, it is you that have an argument with God's Word. You are the one that has errantly assumed that the listed order of seals is the chronological order as well, when there is nothing in the manuscripts which supports your assumption.

And, it is quite obvious that you are not interested in learning the Truth as well. The bottom line is that I am correct any you are wrong! And, I don't care what you think too. After all, you believe in rapture. One can't hardly get further from the Truth than rapture.

 

[Jasheradan]

If you allowed God's Word to be the final authority, then you would be congratulating me for such an inspired OP.

What prophet of God ever asked for congratulations or praise for his inspiration? The glory should go to God - not to the man.

What the Bible says..

"When He opened THE 2nd seal..."
"When He opened THE 3rd seal..."
"When He opened THE 4th seal..."

vs what it does not say.

"When He opened A 2nd seal..."
"When He opened A 3rd seal..."
"When He opened A 4th seal..."

Theres a clear order here. Why confuse it? "A" 2nd seal would mean that any of the other 6 could have been the actual "2nd". But thats not what scripture says.

 

[Jasheradan]

If you look at the OP, I did not state the Lamb opened the seals in any other order than listed. It is just that the events documented in each seal are not listed in chronological order. They are simply truths.

Truths become opinions when you have to change the way the word of God is written in order to prove them.

The scripture was written IN THAT ORDER for a reason. Thats the way God wants it.

 

[Watchman_2]

What prophet of God ever asked for congratulations or praise for his inspiration? The glory should go to God - not to the man.

What the Bible says..

"When He opened THE 2nd seal..."
"When He opened THE 3rd seal..."
"When He opened THE 4th seal..."

vs what it does not say.

"When He opened A 2nd seal..."
"When He opened A 3rd seal..."
"When He opened A 4th seal..."

Theres a clear order here. Why confuse it? "A" 2nd seal would mean that any of the other 6 could have been the actual "2nd". But thats not what scripture says.

See Post No. 32. There is nothing in the manuscripts which indicates that the ordinal listing is chronological.

 

[Watchman_2]

Truths become opinions when you have to change the way the word of God is written in order to prove them.

The scripture was written IN THAT ORDER for a reason. Thats the way God wants it.

I agree. And, the Truth is that the seals are not listed in chronological order. God wanted it that way to separate those who study His Word from folks like you, who will create their own religion premised upon the false assumption that the seal listing can only be chronological.

 

[Jasheradan]

Wow. Next website.

Moderators must be very lenient here. Definately not for me.

 

[Proverbs3/5]

Wow. Next website.

Moderators must be very lenient here.

They are because this is a public forum. As long as users abode by the TOS, they can post false teachings, their own opinions and beliefs, and all other un-Biblical nonsense without moderator intervention.
Then there are those that seem very arrogant and proud of themselves and post stuff like this:

The bottom line is that I am correct any you are wrong! And, I don't care what you think too.

False prophets and false teachers will have harsher judgment on judgment day, so they need to be careful what they say.