Share! Jesus in the Holy Quran & Muhammad in the Holy Bi

[Gary]

Teaching and guiding by the Holy Spirit

Brother: If Gary Bee is dwelled by the Holy Spirit then he do not need to study Islam for four years because the Holy Spirit will teach him!

Gary: How would you know that? Have you read that in the Bible? The Holy Spirit is NOT the teacher of the Quran. However, the Holy Spirit is the guide to the truth. While I have studied the Quran for 4 years, I have also studied the Bible and Christianity. Hence the Holy Spirit has led me more and more to the true Jesus Christ.

Using my God-given brain, I have read and studied the Quran, the Hadith and the history of Islam and Muhammad. Using my God-given brain, I have shown that Muhammad is a false prophet of the true, living God. Using my God-given brain, I have found and examined the contradictions within Islam and the Quran. Using my God-given brain, I have drawn up a list of silly saying and actions by Muhammad as recorded in the Hadith. Read them: http://geocities.com/gary_bee_za/hadith/

Brother: For example, you can find him, when I asked him: I would like to discuss How did you find Jesus to be that truth? I was waiting an answer of that type of examining, using proves. But you see how was his answer? He said, “I have a personal relationship with Him through the Holy Spirit.†He ignores that this is not the way of reasoning.

Gary: Obviously, I have studied the life of Jesus as recorded in the Bible. I have also studied the history and reliability of the documents which make up the Bible. If you are HONESTLY looking for the evidence to the reasonableness of the Christian faith and evidence for the truth about Jesus Christ, why not go through a few of the posts that I did for Quath?

The thread is here... under the subject of "Jesus in History"
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=10357

In particular, you may want to read the following:

• 
  (1) Confirmation of Jesus in non-Christian Sources
  http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/je ... istian.htm
  
  (2) Evidence for the Resurrection
  http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/je ... idence.htm
  
  (3) Resurrection Claims in Non-Christian Religions
  http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/je ... istian.htm
  
  (4) Resurrection – Order of events
  http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/je ... -order.htm
  
  (5) The Reliability of the Secular References to Jesus
  http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/jesus/secular.htm
  
  (6) The Testimony of the Evangelists. The Gospels Examined by the Rules of Evidence.
  http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/bi ... enleaf.htm
  
  (7) Easter. More than eggs!
  http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/ch ... easter.htm
  
  (8) The Essential Works of Josephus
  http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/ch ... sephus.htm

Led by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I have come to know my Lord Jesus Christ more and more every day as I study His Word and get to know the Living Word.

You have still not explained how you know the god of Islam, Allah.

You have also been unable to discuss the following. I wonder why? :-?
(1) Is Muhammad a true prophet of God?
(2) Has the Quran been altered?
(3) Is the god of Islam the same as the true God of Christianity?
If yes, please explain how you come to that conclusion.
(4) Also, which Muslim sect are you? Sunni or Shi'a?


P.S. Jesus taught: "Love your enemies". Where did Muhammad teach this? Where is this teaching in the Quran? This whole concept is totally foreign to Islam.

 

[Gary]

... ignorance is bliss...

Brother: "...by the way in South Africa alone there are about 5000 denominations (2000 among the whites and 3000 among the blacks)."

Gary: :smt120 Please quote the source of this information. :smt024

I will then compare your "sources" to the numbers I have. I do suggest you refer to a world-respected authority on the Christian church in South Africa... John W de Gruchy. The book I have in front of me is "The Church Struggle in South Africa" by John W de Gruchy with a foreword by Alan Paton (ever heard of him?). Christian Church membership is discussed in the appendix. There is also a table which highlights the membership of each denomination (page 239).

If you want the "official" South African government figures, I would suggest "South African Yearbook". I have the 2002/2003 edition. Check page 6, "The estimated religion affiliation of the South African population, based on the 1996 Census." It is in tabular form. Again, the table highlights the membership of each Christian denomination.

I won't embarrass you further by typing the list! I suggest you ask your "many Christian friends from Durban, South Africa" to confirm what I have written and to check it in the books I have mentioned.

:-?

 

[Brother]

"OR HOW CAN HE BE CLEAN THAT IS BORN OF A WOMAN?†(Job 25:4)

As I told you brother Quath,
"They just like the argument."

A fanatic said when we asked him the proves,
"I have a personal relationship with Him through the Holy Spirit."
When we showed him that his words are of fanatical theme and it is nothing to do with the gift of the brian, he tried now justify by changing his mind. But again another fanatical way. That he just posted many big topics by ones because he knows that I do not have a time to answer each point made on those long writings! These type of people will not accept to discuss with you properly in the main subjects one by one. They escape from that! However, I am not going to waste my time to talk with these people! Except by one condition, that is to move a mountain by pointing thier finger or to drink a deadly poison! Believe me they are liars and cannot prove that they are believers by doing such thing.
By the way, may be to move the mount is easy because thier holy spirit would rise it by his power but to drink deadly poison, their holy spirit would not agree with them because if they drink it, their holy spirit would die. HA HA HA!

If they do this sign which is given by Jesus, after that I will discuss with them.

 

[Quath]

There are a few scientific tests in the Bible that show that can prove/disprove it. One is the drinking of poisons. However, we know that does not work, so many Christians say that that part of the Bible was not valid and was inserted later. Or they will say that we can not test God.

Another is a ritual in which a cheating woman can be divined by a priest following a ritual for Yaweh. I believe the woman was suppose to be pregnant and the husband wants to make sure it was his child. There is some controversy as to whether the woman aborts if she fails the test or if there is just discharge. However, it is a test that could be used to prove the Bible true or false. I am pretty sure the test does not work.

Of course there are internal contadictions in the OT, NT and Qur'an. But the people that believe in these books will try to find a way to remove the contradiction by making lots of assumptions and play with word definitions. In the end, I think you have to look at any holy book skeptically and see how much sense it makes.

Quath

 

[Gary]

Sotah trial

Quath: ".. Another is a ritual in which a cheating woman can be divined by a priest following a ritual for Yaweh. I believe the woman was suppose to be pregnant and the husband wants to make sure it was his child. There is some controversy as to whether the woman aborts if she fails the test or if there is just discharge. However, it is a test that could be used to prove the Bible true or false. I am pretty sure the test does not work. "

Gary: I am pretty sure you (and your wife) have never done the test. (I seem to remember that you prefer to sponsor an abortion!)

The Sotah trial in Parshat Naso is, like much of Torah, more nuanced than it seems. With the aid of some commentaries, the Mishnah, Talmud, and other sources, the Sotah trial will be discussed. It is my contention that the trial is not the anti-female trial by ordeal some would have us believe. The Sotah trial can repair a marriage and re-establish trust if the woman is innocent, or end the marriage without loss of life if she confesses, a likely event if she is guilty.

The placement of Sotah in the Parsha is, as always, important. It falls right after a passage that commands a man or woman who has sinned to confess their sin and make restitution to the injured party. If that is impossible, the restitution goes to the priest. This is to be followed by an offering to HaShem. The placement of Sotah directly after this seems to indicate that if the woman has sinned, she should confess rather than undergo the trial. The result of a confession, when there was no witnesses to her misdeed, would result in her divorcing her husband. She could not be put to death only on her own confession.

The trial is initiated when a man becomes jealous, believes his wife may have lain with another, though there are no witnesses to such, and brings her before the priest.

Numbers 5:12-15 "The L-RD spoke to Moses, saying: Speak to the Israelite people and say to them: If any man’s wife has gone astray and broken faith with him in that a man has had carnal relations with her unbeknown to her husband, and she keeps secret the fact that she has defiled herself without being forced, and there is no witness against her -- but a fit of jealousy comes over him and he is wrought up about the wife who has defiled herself; or if a fit of jealousy comes over one and he is wrought up about his wife although she has not defiled herself -- the man shall bring his wife to the priest. ...."1

At this point, it is unknown whether the woman is guilty or innocent. It is only known that her husband suspects her of having an adulterous relationship. It may be that she is innocent and his jealousy is unfounded with respect to adultery, though she did talk to another man. Rather than have the husband act rashly on his own, Torah mandates a trip to the Temple or sanctuary (mishikan), no matter where the couple may live. It is hoped that if the wife is guilty, she will confess rather than undergo the trial. The commentators emphasis what she undergoes in Jerusalem, but a confession could also come during the trip to Jerusalem, provided she is not afraid for her life.......

More: http://www.geocities.com/~alyza/Jewish/sotah.htm

.

 

[Gary]

Select one topic at a time
(Taking the mountain to Muhammad)

Brother: ".. These type of people (Gary_Bee) will not accept to discuss with you properly in the main subjects one by one...."

Gary: Please feel free to select any one of the topics below. We will discuss them one at a time. Please do not digress again and rather stick to the topic. Some are very short. Try (4) for example.

(1) Is Muhammad a true prophet of God?
(2) Has the Quran been altered?
(3) Is the god of Islam the same as the true God of Christianity?
If yes, please explain how you come to that conclusion.
(4) Which Muslim sect are you? Sunni or Shi'a?
(5) Please explain how you know the god of Islam, Allah.
(6) Please quote the source of your information on Christian denominations in South Africa.
(7) Do Muslim "fanatics" follow Muhammad's example or not?
(8) Jesus taught: "Love your enemies". Where did Muhammad teach this? Where is this teaching in the Quran?

.

 

[Quath]

So Gary, are you saying that the test performed by a priest will or will not work in today's times?

Quath

 

[willow the wip]

God said to Jesus, "You are my son today I have begotten you" [Heb.5:5]

God said to David, "You are my son today I have begotten you"[Psalm2:7]

Qur'an:

[112:1] Proclaim, "He is the One and only GOD. "The Absolute GOD. "Never did He beget. Nor was He begotten.

[19:88-95] They said, "The Most Gracious has begotten a son"! You have uttered a gross blasphemy. The heavens are about to shatter, the earth is about to tear asunder, and the mountains are about to crumble. Because they claim that the Most Gracious has begotten a son. It is not befitting the Most Gracious that He should beget a son.Every single one in the heavens and the earth is a servant of the Most Gracious. He has encompassed them, and has counted them one by one.All of them will come before Him on the Day of Resurrection as individuals.

Islam Teaches a diffrent Jesus The Jesus of the Bible is not the Jesus of the quran so to say that you can except the Biblical Jesus would be a lie or you would reject allah and follow and worship the only begotten.

 

[Quath]

I believe that Muslims believe that humans are not perfect and they wrote down stories about God imperfectly. So the OT and the NT stories have to be taken with a grain of salt. Yet, they believe that Mohammed was directly told what to write by God (Allah) so it is not subject to human error and should be a perfect document.

Now that being said, I see many self contradictions to show that it is not perfect. A few from http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/korancontra.html:

Does everything obey Allah?
Yes: Sura 30:26
"Unto Him belongeth whosoever is in the heavens and the earth. All are obedient unto Him."
No: Sura 2:34
"And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam, they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He demurred through pride, and so became a disbeliever."
Commentary: 2:34 is typical of the numerous verses that tell the story of Iblis (Satan), who, alone among the angels and jinn, disobeyed Allah's command to bow before Adam. Yet 30:26 says that all beings are obedient to Allah.

Will Christians go to Heaven?
Yes: Sura 5:69
"Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them, neither shall they grieve."
No: Sura 5:72
"They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers."
No: Sura 3:85
"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost."
Commentary: Along with verse 2:62, 5:69 states that whoever believes in God and Judgment Day and does what is right, a category which it says includes faithful Jews and Christians, will be saved (if they will neither fear nor grieve, they obviously have not gone to Hell, and there's only one other place to go). Yet 5:72, three verses later, flatly denies this, as does 3:85, which states that all non-Muslims are damned.

Could Allah have a son?
Yes: Sura 39:4
"If Allah had willed to choose a son, He could have chosen what He would of that which He hath created."
No: Sura 6:101
"The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a child, when there is for Him no consort, when He created all things and is aware of all things?"
Commentary: Verse 39:4 states that Allah could have chosen a son from among any of the beings he created, had he so desired. But verse 6:101 rejects this idea as logically impossible - verse 6:100 says that some "impute falsely, without knowledge, sons and daughters unto Him", while the following verse then explains why such a thing could not be.

There are a lot more from that webpage.

Quath

 

[Gary]

Quath: "...Yet, they (Muslims) believe that Mohammed was directly told what to write by God (Allah) so it is not subject to human error and should be a perfect document."

Gary: Nope. You and your atheist friend "ebonmusings" have it wrong again.

Muhammad's encounter with Gabriel

Gabriel was the angel that Muhamamd was supposed to have met in the cave while meditating and who brought down the Qur'an for recitation. In the first encounter, Aisha related that when Muhammad did not recite, Gabriel caught him (forcefully) and pressed him so hard that he could not bear it any more, and this was repeated three times. Gabriel left Muhammad terribly shaken. Muhammad feared that something might have happened to him, returned and asked Khadija to cover him until his fear was gone. Muhammad thought that the spirit was a jinn. (Sahih Bukhari 1.3) He even contemplated commiting suicide by throwing himself down a mountain.

Bukhari Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3:
Narrated 'Aisha:

(the mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read.

The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones."

Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while.

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari while talking about the period of pause in revelation reporting the speech of the Prophet "While I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw the same angel who had visited me at the cave of Hira' sitting on a chair between the sky and the earth. I got afraid of him and came back home and said, 'Wrap me (in blankets).' And then Allah revealed the following Holy Verses (of Quran):

'O you (i.e. Muhammad)! wrapped up in garments!' Arise and warn (the people against Allah's Punishment),... up to 'and desert the idols.' (74.1-5) After this the revelation started coming strongly, frequently and regularly."

A much better researched site for answering Islam is here:

 

[Gary]

Quath: "...I believe that Muslims believe that humans are not perfect and they wrote down stories about God imperfectly...."

Gary: Nope. Wrong again. :-? :-?

READ what Muhammad and the first Muslims believed about the Bible.

"The following material is a compilation of evidences from the Quran which Christians can use to prove that the first Muslims believed that Holy Bible is the inspired and preserved Word of God. The first Muslims clearly did not believe that the text of Holy Scriptures was unreliable, but actually appealed to the biblical text for verification purposes......

Read on....

"We would like to preface our comments by saying that we do not believe that the Quran is the word of God. We do believe, however, that the Quran is the earliest record we have that details the beliefs and practices of the first Muslims. As such, we appeal to it solely for historical purposes to show Muslims that their own sources support the authenticity and reliability of the Holy Bible. Hopefully, by God’s sovereign grace, our aim is to lead Muslims to reexamine their view of God’s pure Word, the Holy Bible, and embrace its teaching on the real Jesus of history for salvation.

"The dilemma for the Muslim is quite apparent. To accept the Quran is to accept its testimony that the Holy Bible is the preserved Word of God. And yet to accept the Holy Bible is to reject both the Quran and Muhammad. The first Muslims evidently thought that by appealing to the Holy Bible they would be verifying the prophetic claims of Muhammad. Little did they realize that their appeal to the Holy Scriptures for verification purposes actually proves that Muhammad cannot be a true prophet since he contradicts the message of God’s true prophets and messengers, especially the testimony of the Lord Jesus Christ, God’s beloved Son.

"On the flip side, to attack the Holy Bible is to discredit the Quran which confirms the authority, availability, and authenticity of the previous scriptures. Either way, Muslims are in a no win situation....

More: The Quran Confirms the Bible Has Never Been Corrupted
(1) http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/ ... entic1.htm
(2) http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/ ... entic2.htm

:wink:

 

[willow the wip]

one that would controdict the quran

two Mohamed was a proven illiturate person who could not read nor write so how do you come up with that asumption.

 

[Quath]

Quath: "...Yet, they (Muslims) believe that Mohammed was directly told what to write by God (Allah) so it is not subject to human error and should be a perfect document."

Gary: Nope. You and your atheist friend "ebonmusings" have it wrong again.

I know you like to try to prove me wrong, but at least do it with something that has substance. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran:

Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the literal word of God, revealed to the Prophet Muhammad over a period of 22 years.

...

Muslims believe that the wording of the Qur'anic text that we have today is identical to that spoken by Muhammad himself; created by God and delivered to Muhammad through Gabriel.

So yeah, it was Garbiel that was suppose to have said it, but it was the relavations from Allah.

I believe that Muslims believe that humans are not perfect and they wrote down stories about God imperfectly.

Nope. Wrong again.

It is funny how often you say that and are wrong. Makes me wonder if you truly appreciate the humor in it.

Further down on wikipedia:

Most Muslims believe that of the major Ibrahimic religious works containing the word of God, (the Qur'an, the Tanakh, and the New Testament) only the Qur'an has remained uncorrupted over the years. In recent years, some students of Muslim theology have advocated the findings of modern biblical textual criticism, which claims to have shown that the extant version of the five books of Moses was not written solely by Moses 3500 years ago, as traditional Jews and Christians had believed, but instead was compiled perhaps 2500 years ago from a number of previous sources. This is known as the Documentary hypothesis. Similar work has been carried out on the New Testament. In Muslims' view, this demonstrates that the Jewish and Christian scriptures, though originally divinely inspired, have been corrupted by malicious or careless scribes over the centuries, and cannot therefore provide a reliable guide to God's will for mankind - thus necessitating the final revelation of the Qur'an. However, the Qur'an also stipulates that the Jewish and Christian scriptures are based, however loosely, on divinely inspired originals, and Muslims therefore have respect for them.

Quath

 

[Gary]

LOL.... you are a laugh-a-minute. I see the humour in what you post every time......
:smt024 wikipedia again..... :o :o :o LOL
:smt024 google-search-research again..... :o :o :o LOL

Quath, you REALLY need to start to learn how to discern.

Consider the expertise of the answering-islam.org team vs the rubbish contained in wikipedia. Remember, even YOU said you would not use wikipedia when you needed in-depth material. Case in point again.
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 405#101405
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 466#101466
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 510#101510

"You (Quath) admit that in your area of expertise (maths and physics) you would not use wikipedia. You would not even use an encyclopaedia. Instead, you would go to "journals and teaching books".

It is ironic that you keep calling for the application of scientific methods in the study of Christianity and the Bible.... because you keep reminding us that you are a scientist. However, when challenged, you revert to the lowest, non-scholarly, FREE online encyclopaedia you can find and even call the article "good".

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 569#101569
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... 800#101800

Now look at the expertise of the following authors at http://www.answering-islam.org

Individual Contributing Authors on Answering Islam
M. N. Anderson
Rev. Richard P. Bailey
Andy Bannister
Dr. William Campbell
Roland Clarke
John Gilchrist
Samuel Green
Dr. Ernest Hahn
Dawud Jabal
Memsuah Mansoor
Abu Miriam
Gerhard Nehls
Alano Perez
Brahim Sene
Sam Shamoun
Silas
Anthony Wales
Walid
http://www.answering-islam.org/authors.html

Answering Islam Library of Classical Books and Authors
Al-Kalbi
Al-Kindi
James Levi Barton
Richard Bell
Leone Caetani
Jens Christensen
W. H. T. Gairdner
Abraham Geiger
H.A.R. Gibb
William Goldsack
Thomas Patrick Hughes
C. Snouck Hurgronje
Arthur Jeffery
Duncan B. Macdonald
David S. Margoliouth
Alphonse Mingana
Sir William Muir
Theodor Nöldeke
Carl Gottlieb Pfander
Joseph Schacht
[Canon] Edward Sell
John Subhan
William St. Clair-Tisdall
Charles Cutler Torrey
E. M. Wherry
Arthur N. Wollaston
Samuel Zwemer
http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/index.htm
"We do not necessarily agree with everything written by each of the above authors. Some conclusions have been superseded by newer work, on some aspects we have fundamentally differing convictions. However, these books and articles are still a valuable basis for gaining deeper understanding and doing further research."

:wink: :wink:

 

[willow the wip]

Brother if you want to do that then denounce your faith in Allah.

1. Creation: The biblical Genesis account says God created all in six days (see Genesis 1:1 - 2:2). The Quran, however, has a real problem here as Surah 41:9, 10, 12 have a total of eight days of creation (4+2+2=8) Meanwhile, Surah 10:3 gives the total number of days of creation as six. This is a problem of self-contradiction.


2. Pharaoh: According to the Quran (Surah 7:120-125) Pharaoh used crucifixion in dealing with the sorcerers - a practice which historical evidence gives no precedent to before the Babylonian Empire. This is once again a problem of historical compression.

3. The Golden Calf: According to the Quran (Surah 20:90-100)a Samaritan helped the Israelites build the golden calf, and it mooed after coming out of the fire. In reality, Samaritans did not exist as a people until at least 1000 years after the time of the Moses and the Israelite exodus from Egypt. Again a problem of historical compression.

4. Judaism: According to the Quran (Surah 9:30) the Jews believe that Ezra is the Son of God - the Messiah. This never has been a tenet of Judaism. This is a clear problem of distorted knowledge of other religions and historical fact.

5. Alexander the Great: According to the Quran (Surah 18:89-98) Alexander the Great was a devout Muslim and lived to a ripe old age. Historical records however show that Alexander the Great died young at 33 years of age (b. 356 B.C. - d. 323 B.C.), and believed he was divine, forcing others to recognize him as such. In India on the Hyphasis River (now Beas) Alexander erected twelve altars to twelve Olympian gods. Once again the Quran shows errors in historical and religious fact.

6. The Trinity: According to the Quran (Surah 5:116, 5:73-75) the Christians believe in "three Gods" - Father, Mother, and Son. This shows the influence of heretical 'Christian' sects in central Arabia at the time of Muhammad. In contrast, Christianity has always distinctly stated that the Trinity is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The teaching of the Quran on the Trinity has undoubtedly led to confusion among many Muslims on what the Bible (and thus Christianity) teaches about the Triune God.

7. Mary: According to the Quran (Surah 19:28, 3:33-36), Mary, the mother of Jesus, was the daughter of Imran or Amram, the father of Moses and Aaron. Mary is also said to be the sister of Moses and Aaron. Clearly Muhammad confused Mary with Miriam. A second interesting point about Mary is the story of the date palm speaking and offering its fruit to her (Surah 19:23). This legend is easily traced to similar legends found in the apocryphal "Protoevangelium of James" the "Pseudo-Matthew" and "the Gospel of the Nativity of Mary" all of which have been dated to the fourth to sixth centuries, and were again believed by the sects found in Arabia. (More indepth information on Quranic sources may be found in Rev. W. St. Clair Tisdall's The Religion of the Crescent).

How do we view and respond to these unresolved problems of logic, history and religious knowledge? While they do not serve as the basis for our belief that the Quran is not the revelation of God (as there are issues of far greater consequence between the message of the Bible and the message of the Quran), they do show us that there are legitimate problems with the belief that the Quran is God's revelation to man, as God who is all knowing and infallible could not give statements of error, and then claim them as His Truth. As Christians we find the answer in the Bible. Numbers 23 tells us,

God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man that He should repent. Has He said, and He will not do? Or has He spoken, and He will not make it good? (vs.19)

 

[evanman]

To the one who calls himself "Brother". I apologise for not responding sooner but my internet has been down.

Mary gave birth to the Son of God, she did NOT give birth to GOD! The Holy Bible teaches us that God does not have a Mother!

The one who became the child Jesus, the Son of God, was God, or as the Jewish scriptures call Him< "Immanuel" (which by translation is "God with us").

I know that you find this difficult to accept as you choose to believe what the Q'ran teaches, that your God (Allah) has no son!, however, as I already showed, even 1000 years before the birth of Jesus Christ the hebrew scruiptures already declared that God Has a Son!

An adopted son is noit one that is begotten by his father--he is adopted!

Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of the Father.

The expression "only begotten" is an interesting phrase, especially as it applies to Jesus.

The meaning of only begotten. "Only begotten" is from the Greek monogenes. This word is used nine times in the Greek New Testament. The word is a compound word, mono, meaning only, and gennesis, meaning birth. "Only begotten" (monogenes) is used five times by John, three by Luke, and once by the writer of Hebrews. Luke used the word to describe the widow's son, "only son of his mother" (Lk. 7: 12, see 8: 42, 9: 38). The writer of Hebrews said Abraham "offered up his only begotten son" (Heb. 11: 17).

Only begotten as applied to Jesus. The scriptures teach that God's people are "sons of God" (Rom. 8: 14). Modernists contend that Jesus was simply another son of God. Not so! Jesus' Sonship was understood as indicative of deity (Jn. 10: 36, 38). Monogenes is used of Jesus' Sonship. Jesus is the "only begotten Son" (I Jn. 4: 9). "Single of its kind," comments Thayer, "…used of Christ, denotes the only Son of God or who in the sense in which he himself is the Son of God has no brethren…he is of nature or essentially Son of God, and so in a very different sense from that in which men are made by him children of God" (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon, pgs. 417, 418). Beloved, God's people are adopted "sons of God," Jesus is the only Son of God by nature (cp. Rom. 8: 14-16).

As God's monogenes Jesus enjoyed unique glory (Jn. 1: 14). The only begotten declared God (Jn. 1: 18). Jesus being of the same essential nature as the Father could reveal God as no other could (Jn. 14: 8-11). The only begotten is the ultimate expression of God's love (Jn. 3: 16, I Jn. 4: 9). Moreover, we must believe in the only begotten Son of God (Jn. 3: 18, 16).

Hence, Jesus is uniquely and singularly the Son of God - the only one of his kind. To realize the only begotten Son of God gave his life for you and me is indeed most humbling.

You see God did something that only He could do--divested Himself of everything that made Him God in order to become a human, live as a human, yet still remain God!

This is the message of the Holy Bible, it is contradicted by the Q'ran. The Jesus of the Q'ran is not the same Jesus that the Bible reveals to us. This is why there can be no fellowship between Christ's followers and those of muhammed, we worship and follow different Gods.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit do not constitute three Gods as you contend. They are one and the same God.

The teaching of the Bible is that we may all become sons of God by faith in Christ Jesus. That Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and that by dying on the cross as He did we are reconciled to God!

This is the teaching of the Bible!

 

[Brother]

Sorry friends for late of response that because I travled out side for work and still I am there. But when I came back to check the discussions I found it holds many many points which I need much of times to answer each one. My original discussion was with Evanman, Willow the Wip, Gary Bee and brother Quath who also gave questions.

I already asked Gary Bee to prove that he is a believer by passing the test which Jesus has gave us. I promised him if he drink a deadly poison without any effect, I will go to discuss with him. I found him ignores it!

Let me now continue my main discussion and I hope others not interupt with many much other points, we want a honest discussion!

my main discussion was with Evanman and Quath, so I am going to answer thier questions and suggestion respectfully.

 

[Vic C.]

I already asked Gary Bee to prove that he is a believer by passing the test which Jesus has gave us. I promised him if he drink a deadly poison without any effect, I will go to discuss with him. I found him ignores it!

Of course Gary ignored it. No one in their right mind would take a challange like that. That 'test' was for those in the apostolic age. It is no longer valid.

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 

[Brother]

Dear Evanman,
You have told me,
"Mary gave birth to the Son of God, she did NOT give birth to GOD! The Holy Bible teaches us that God does not have a Mother!
The one who became the child Jesus, the Son of God, was God, or as the Jewish scriptures call Him< "Immanuel" (which by translation is "God with us").
WAS GOD A CHILD???
You claim that Jesus is God and son of God!! then you say that Mary did not give birth to God but son of God!! Is not seems to be contradicted, I personally did not understand what you are trying to say! What I know is that God is perfect and he does not have a mother nor a father nor a son because this is an animal act. You already have confessed that God does not have a mother, then how dare you say that Jesus is God, who has a mother?

Regarding your previous statment,
“He has ONE Son that He Himself begat, and he has many other sons that he has adopted!â€Â
I asked you about that statment,
"I did not understand what do you mean by begat and adopted here!! If you tell me that a man begat a son, it will be understood as a sexual act while if you said adopted, it will be understood as out of that act. Please explain what do mean exactly?"
But I did not understand again what you claim! you repeated saying he is the only beggotten son! and I already knew what do you mean by adopted which is out of sexul act, but what about beggotten one?!!
By the way, The OLD TESTAMENT never claimed that God would begat a son?

 

[Gary]

Brother: "Love your enemies" said my master Jesus

Gary: How is Jesus your master? How do you obey him? You are not asked to follow Jesus. As a Muslim, you are TOLD to use Muhammad as a role-model. Do you?

Jesus taught: "Love your enemies". Where did Muhammad teach this? Where is this teaching in the Quran?

If you cannot answer this..... IGNORE IT. That will be PROOF that Muhammad did NOT teach this.