Bible Study Sheep who become lost.

[JLB]

I think most people call that 'without salvation'.........

Please define salvation and when we receive it.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Please define salvation and when we receive it.

Salvation is deliverance from the consequences of sin and removal of that sin.
We are saved upon belief in Messiah......Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

 

[JLB]

Salvation is deliverance from the consequences of sin and removal of that sin.
We are saved upon belief in Messiah......Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Salvation is promised to those who believe.

How about those who believe for a while, then do not believe any longer?

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Jesus teaches us that believe = saved.

He also teaches us there will be some who believe for a while, then because of persecution, they no longer believe and fall away, which means depart from Him.

JLB

 

[civilwarbuff]

Salvation is promised to those who believe.

How about those who believe for a while, then do not believe any longer?

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Jesus teaches us that believe = saved.

He also teaches us there will be some who believe for a while, then because of persecution, they no longer believe and fall away, which means depart from Him.

JLB

And as I pointed out there are just as many scriptures that imply salvation cannot be lost.....so as I asked before how do these apparently contradicting scripture get reconciled?

 

[JLB]

And as I pointed out there are just as many scriptures that imply salvation cannot be lost.....so as I asked before how do these apparently contradicting scripture get reconciled?

Salvation is promised to those who believe.

How about those who believe for a while, then do not believe any longer?

Are those who believe for awhile, then do not believe any longer, are they still saved?



JLB

 

[civilwarbuff]

How about those who believe for a while, then do not believe any longer?
Are those who believe for awhile, then do not believe any longer, are they still saved?

As has been pointed out before (many, many times) were they saved to begin with? Not all who cry Lord, Lord will be saved.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Have answered your questions JLB, time for you to answer mine.......

And as I pointed out there are just as many scriptures that imply salvation cannot be lost.....so as I asked before how do these apparently contradicting scripture get reconciled?

 

[JLB]

As has been pointed out before (many, many times) were they saved to begin with? Not all who cry Lord, Lord will be saved.

Jesus said that believe is what is required to be saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

I thought you guys have said (many, many, many) times, that at the moment one believes, they are saved.

Here is your direct quote -

We are saved upon belief in Messiah.

In the next group, Jesus said these do indeed believe, for a while.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while

So, if the person is not saved when they believe, please explain what else a person must do to be saved?


JLB

 

[JLB]

And as I pointed out there are just as many scriptures that imply salvation cannot be lost.....so as I asked before how do these apparently contradicting scripture get reconciled?

I have never seen one single scripture that says a person can not possibly lose their salvation.

Salvation is deliverance from the consequences of sin and removal of that sin.

Based upon your definition of salvation, which is the deliverance from the consequences of sin, and removal of that sin, then salvation can indeed be lost based upon what Jesus taught.


32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.” Matthew 18:32-35

The person did indeed receive forgiveness, but the because of unforgiveness, he lost the very forgiveness that he so desired, and pled for, whereby he was required to pay the consequences in full, when at one time he was free from his obligation.


He had forgiveness of the debt that was beyond his ability to pay, but because he wouldn’t forgive someone else a little debt, he end up losing his forgiveness.



JLB

 

[th1b.taylor]

And as I pointed out there are just as many scriptures that imply salvation cannot be lost.....so as I asked before how do these apparently contradicting scripture get reconciled?

Only through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Honey]

I was replying to your comment which said



Jesus must use us to after His sheep that have gone astray, and are lost.


Jesus is in heaven, seated at the right hand of God.

Today, He works through His people, to preach the Gospel and do the works He did, while He was on the earth.

That's why James teaches us that we are to go and turn those who wander, back to God so they won't remain lost.


Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-21

Jesus taught His disciples the same thing.

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:4-7




JLB

The sheep do not stop being sheep even when they wander.

 

[civilwarbuff]

In the next group, Jesus said these do indeed believe, for a while.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while

So, if the person is not saved when they believe, please explain what else a person must do to be saved?

John 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
You cannot have eternal life without salvation....so once more, a seeming contradiction......

I have never seen one single scripture that says a person can not possibly lose their salvation.

And the reverse is also true.....

 

[civilwarbuff]

The sheep do not stop being sheep even when they wander.

Even more, they do not stop belonging to the shepherd. If a child runs away does that mean he no longer belongs to his parents?

 

[JLB]

John 6:47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.
You cannot have eternal life without salvation....so once more, a seeming contradiction......

And the reverse is also true.....

Here is the question I asked.

So, if the person is not saved when they believe, please explain what else a person must do to be saved?



Jesus said that believe is what is required to be saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Luke 8:12

• lest they should believe and be saved.

I thought you guys have said (many, many, many) times, that at the moment one believes, they are saved.

Here is your direct quote -


In the next group, Jesus said these do indeed believe, for a while.

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

• who believe for a while

JLB

 

[JLB]

The sheep do not stop being sheep even when they wander.

There are lost however.

 

[JLB]

Even more, they do not stop belonging to the shepherd. If a child runs away does that mean he no longer belongs to his parents?

The child is lost, according to the scripture.

31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:31-32

If a child of God wanders from God, He is lost.

Dead to God..

He must repent, just as he did when he was a sinner, in order to be reconciled back to God.


JLB

 

[civilwarbuff]

But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

These 'believers' have no root in God and have only an emotional belief in the message and emotional belief soon cools and dies.
Pulpit Commentary
Verse 13. - They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the Word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. These represent natures at once impressionable and excitable; impulsive men and women who, charmed with the beauty, perhaps (to them) the novelty, of the gospel message, receive the Word, take up the Master's yoke with joy, but without thought. These hastily make a religious profession, but they forget altogether to count what the real cost of such a profession amounts to. Upon these superficial but kindly natures come trouble, perplexity, discouragement, perhaps persecution; then quickly the once-loved religion withers away like corn growing on rocky places beneath the burning summer sun. John Mark, the would-be missionary companion of Paul and Barnabas, was one of this impulsive but little-enduring class; and Demas, once the friend of Paul, but who loved too well the present world. Another instance would be the man who offered to follow Jesus "whithersoever thou goest," as he phrased it, till he found, by the Lord's grave answer, that the Master he offered to follow had neither home nor resting-place; then he seems quickly to have turned back.
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/luke/8-13.htm

 

[civilwarbuff]

The child is lost, according to the scripture.

31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. 32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:31-32

If a child of God wanders from God, He is lost.

Dead to God..

He must repent, just as he did when he was a sinner, in order to be reconciled back to God.


JLB

I think I asked this earlier but I don't think I got an answer, but if someone is saved then wanders from God, "Dead to God" as you say, what happens to the indwelling Holy Spirit? Does He/can He remain within this 'dead' person? If so, how can the HS remain in someone 'Dead to God'? If He can't remain does that mean a person has to be born again again as opposed to just repentance?

 

[JLB]

I think I asked this earlier but I don't think I got an answer, but if someone is saved then wanders from God, "Dead to God" as you say, what happens to the indwelling Holy Spirit? Does He/can He remain within this 'dead' person? If so, how can the HS remain in someone 'Dead to God'? If He can't remain does that mean a person has to be born again again as opposed to just repentance?

Dead to God refers to spirituality dead, since the prodigal son was not physically dead.

If so, how can the HS remain in someone 'Dead to God'?

The way we have eternal life is by being in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We are connected or joined to His Spirit, the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, in which we are one spirit with Him.

• But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 1 Corinthians 6:17

When a person is severed or removed from Christ, they are no longer in Christ in which they are no longer joined to Him and His Spirit.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:2

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

If a person is no longer connected to the eternal life in Christ, how then can a person have eternal life?



JLB

 

[civilwarbuff]

Please define salvation and when we receive it.

Would like for you to do the same.....