Bible Study Should A Christian Vote?

[BFSmith764]

________________________________________

God had called Abram to physically come out of the country of his birth.

Genesis 12:1 (KJV)
Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Abram or as God later changed his name to Abraham, could not participate in his old country's political system, because he was told by God to get out from his country. He was not their to do so even if he wanted to.

Acts 7:3 (KJV)
And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.

Abraham was not looking to go back or even to another country of this world. Because he not just physically left his home land he also spiritually came out of this world.

Hebrews 11:10 (KJV)
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Hebrews 11:9-10 (KJV)
By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

They all renounce their rights and privileges of their former country/ancestry and embraced a far better one by faith.

Hebrews 11:14-16 (KJV)
For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Even Moses gave up all that he had in Egypt for God's sake

Hebrews 11:25-27 (KJV)
Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

The people of God would rather suffer than renounce their new citizenship; they were like a people without a country.

Hebrews 11:37-40 (KJV)
They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

An ambassador is one that represents the country of his birth in another country. An ambassador does not participate in the country's political system where he is representing his country. Hebrews 11:37-40 is not saying that the people of God are to be poor, that is not the point of my argument. In fact scriptures would show that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and even Job for example were wealthy men. Being a pilgrim or a sojourner does not mean that one has to be poor.

2 Cor. 5:20 (KJV)
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Ephes. 6:20 (KJV)
For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

Ambassadors: presbeuo,pres-byoo'-o; from the base of Greek (presbuteros); to be a senior, i.e. (by implication) act as a representative (figurative preacher) :- be an ambassador.

Born again; born from above
1 Peter 1:23 (KJV)
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The people of God must live in this world but not be a part of its ways or system. Some things can seem right or even innocent but one could easily get caught up in sin.

Proverbs 14:12 (KJV)
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 16:25 (KJV)
There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Rev. 18:4 (KJV)
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Our kingdom is not in this world

John 18:36 (KJV)
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 17:14 (KJV)
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

John 17:16 (KJV)
They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Ephes. 2:19 (KJV)
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Luke 10:20 (KJV)
Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

If Jesus wanted His people to change or make the system a just or better one He would have refused to pay the tribute the system which they expected all but those who were not family members to pay. But instead of protesting He went along so as not to offend them. Neither Jesus nor the early Church ever seeks to change or impose its belief on those who were not believers.
Matthew 17:25-27 (KJV)
25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.
27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

Our kingdom will come to this world at the return of Jesus the Christ.

Rev. 11:15 (KJV)
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

This is Satan's world

2 Cor. 4:4 (KJV)
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Strangers on the earth

Hebrews 11:13 (KJV)
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

1 Peter 2:11 (KJV)
Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

For a child of God to participate in the political system of this world it would ultimately conflicts with their citizenship of the kingdom of God, and he or she is bound to betray one or the other.

Matthew 6:24 (KJV)
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Luke 16:13 (KJV)
No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

The word that is translated "Church" means in Greek "a calling out" or "the called out ones". Therefore, if someone called you outside of a meeting, work or conversation for example, then you are no longer participating in what is going on in side, until you decide to go back in.

What does the word Church mean?

Acts 20:28 (KJV)
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Church: ekklesia,ek-klay-see'-ah; from a compound of Greek (ek) and a derivative of Greek (kaleo); a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both) :- assembly, church.

My comment

While there are no scriptures in the Bible that as a command says, "You shall not vote" or "The people of God should vote". There are scriptures that gives us examples of people of God who were willing to give up the rights and privileges of the nation of their birth for the sake of their new citizenship. Nothing is worth what God is so graciously offering us.

Romans 8:18 (KJV)
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Our loyalty first and foremost is to the kingdom of God, but it does not mean that we should not care about the people and country or the world in which we live.

Romans 12:18 (KJV)
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Galatians 6:10 (KJV)
As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

The people of God are to be the most caring and loving people of the world.

Romans 12:20 (KJV)
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

We are to care about the environment because the Bible gave us examples of that.

John 6:12-13 (KJV)
When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost. Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten.

Mark 8:8 (KJV)
So they did eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets.

Genesis 2:15 (KJV)
And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

Keep: shamar,shaw-mar'; a primitive root; properly to hedge about (as with thorns), i.e. guard; generally to protect, attend to, etc. :- beware, be circumspect, take heed (to self), keep (-er, self), mark, look narrowly, observe, preserve, regard, reserve, save (self), sure, (that lay) wait (for), watch (-man).

The Bible is full of countless ways were a child of God can fulfill the will of God, and there by do a world of good far more than the simple act of voting. It is God who set up and removes kings/nations.

Daniel 4:17 (KJV)
This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Basest: shephal,shef-al'; (Chaldee); from Hebrew (shephal); low :- basest.

Daniel 4:25 (KJV)
That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

But we have no way of knowing when, how, whom and for what purpose (except that we know it will be to fulfill His divine plane) He will set up or remove. We could even be fighting against God's will, because the person or party that we may be voting for to be in power may not be God's will. But it is far easier to know what God expect of us, through his word.

It is because we are citizens of the kingdom of God why we do good to all people, while not allowing our selves to be corrupt by the things of the world.

James 1:27 (KJV)
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

 

[Scott1]

Should A Christian Vote?

Yes

Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one's country:

Pay to all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

[Christians] reside in their own nations, but as resident aliens. They participate in all things as citizens and endure all things as foreigners. . . . They obey the established laws and their way of life surpasses the laws. . . . So noble is the position to which God has assigned them that they are not allowed to desert it.
The Apostle exhorts us to offer prayers and thanksgiving for kings and all who exercise authority, "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way."
CCC #2240

 

[BFSmith764]

Should A Christian Vote?

Yes

Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one's country:



Pay to all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

These are two different things; paying taxes and voting. There are people who pay taxes but cannot vote, because they are not citizens, but are legal resident.

[Christians] reside in their own nations, but as resident aliens. They participate in all things as citizens and endure all things as foreigners. . . . They obey the established laws and their way of life surpasses the laws. . . . So noble is the position to which God has assigned them that they are not allowed to desert it.

The problem with many of us is that we see, read and hear what we want. None of this addressed my post. I never said that Christians should not pay taxes or not obey the law of the land....except if it violates God's will.

[The Apostle exhorts us to offer prayers and thanksgiving for kings and all who exercise authority, "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way."
CCC #2240

Again this does not have anything to do with my topic. My topic has to do with voting, nothing more and nothing less.

 

[cyberjosh]

This is an interesting question that you ask since we are not of this world, yet this world is still our concern and the Bible tells us to pray for those in leadership positions (Titus 3:1-2; Romans 13:1-4, 1 Peter 2:13-15). I think that there is nothing wrong with voting (but at the same time neither should you feel obligated to do so - your own choice) because the people in the OT give us testomonies of how they chose Judges who were exemplary to rule over them and also got to "popularly select" a King in the OT. The Bible also in 1 Peter 2:17 tells us to "honor the king", which in the US equates to the President, and thus if we want to see justice in the land and have peace (which is why Paul says that we should pray for leaders) then we should vote for the person we think can best fit the office, although with the understanding that nor man or woman that we elect could ever be a perfect ruler.

But in short, no it is not wrong to vote, just vote conscientiously, and for the person you think that will execute justice (a major theme in the Bible). And also having Christian leaders are especially encouraging. Hope that answers your question.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[BFSmith764]

This is an interesting question that you ask since we are not of this world, yet this world is still our concern and the Bible tells us to pray for those in leadership positions (Titus 3:1-2; Romans 13:1-4, 1 Peter 2:13-15). I think that there is nothing wrong with voting (but at the same time neither should you feel obligated to do so - your own choice) because the people in the OT give us testomonies of how they chose Judges who were exemplary to rule over them and also got to "popularly select" a King in the OT. The Bible also in 1 Peter 2:17 tells us to "honor the king", which in the US equates to the President, and thus if we want to see justice in the land and have peace (which is why Paul says that we should pray for leaders) then we should vote for the person we think can best fit the office, although with the understanding that nor man or woman that we elect could ever be a perfect ruler.

One can show honor without voting, and in the Old Testament the nation of Israel was a nation/family that God promist their forefathers that because they were faithful, He would bless there offsprings/children....we are not under that kind of system as Christians.

But in short, no it is not wrong to vote, just vote conscientiously, and for the person you think that will execute justice (a major theme in the Bible). And also having Christian leaders are especially encouraging. Hope that answers your question.

God Bless,

~Josh

We will never have a just nation, since Satan is the god of this world. Satan is deceitful and uses those that are under his influence to deceive and cause those who look to these so-call leaders to lead many astray. The Bible tells us that we will have false Christians claiming to be true Christian, as Jesus said. We have those who have ran for public office, claiming to be a Christian with the intention to get Christians to vote for them. But the truth is these false Christian Politian are instrument of Satan, and their deeds are easily recognized by those who are not food by them.

If the false leaders which were obviously under the influence of Satan have caused the House of Israel to stray from God, then what would God say now?

Isaiah 3:12 (NASB77)
12 O My people! Their oppressors are children, And women rule over them. O My people! Those who guide you lead you astray, And confuse the direction of your paths.

The above scripture might as well been written to America, because it’s a nation basically ruled by woman,(the woman is often the heads the home, even when she has a husband) and children, the youths are its oppressor (children have little respect for their parents and do what they please against their parent’s wishes), and their leaders are constantly leading the nation down the wrong path; this nation was fooled by the drum beat of war, soon after 911 and now the result is that this nation is headed for destruction, by these false Christian leaders.

How many so-call Christians who have been fooled by the ones that they help to elect? Should not we be more like Jesus who it was said that He did not need anyone to testify of man, because He knew what was in man?

John 2:24-25 (ASV)
24 But Jesus did not trust himself unto them, for that he knew all men,
25 and because he needed not that any one should bear witness concerning man; for he himself knew what was in man.

It seems as if the more we are let down by those we put our trust in, the more we continue to do so, when will we learn?

 

[Imagican]

My understanding of this issue would be that it REALLY doesn't matter. And here's why:

First, do ANY of us TRULY know the inplications BEHIND that which we VOTE FOR? The candidates OR the issues that they represent. For ALL of us KNOW that what one SAYS is rarely a TRUE image of what they REALLY DO.

Secondly, to TAKE part in the extablishments PROCESS is to do NOTHING but BECOME a 'part of IT'. And we ALL know THROUGH The Word that we are to SEPARATE ourselves from it. Now HERE'S WHY.

WHEN we get 'caught up' in the business of The World, we BECOME responsible for that which we 'get involved with'. The LESS we 'get involved with' concerning The World, the LESS we could POSSIBLY be HELD responsible FOR. Let me explain:

Let's say that you VOTE to enact the DEATH penalty. WHO do you HONESTLY BELIEVE is responsible if even ONE innocent person is put through the system that YOU condone and is FALSELY convicted and put to death?

or how about this:

Let's say that you vote IN a man that SAYS that he is going to do ONE thing and DOES ANOTHER. and the THING that He does is to 'take God out of the classroom'. or to FORCE Christians to register. Or to RECEIVE a 'mark' of alliegance to HIM or a country? the possibilities are ENDLESS. Suffice is to offer the EXAMPLE.

We ARE to abide by the laws of OUR land. Where ever we may live, that IS our 'obligation' to BE the example that has been offered. But that does NOT mean that we NEED to 'take part' in it's structure or condone it's UNRIGHTEOUS behavior.

Now, Biblical reference: We have the example in the case of the Jews BEGGING for a KING. No satisfied with an INVISIBLE God as King, but desirous of a PHYSICAL King that they could actually SEE, and HEAR, and SERVE. Unaware of the CONSEQUENCES, they begged and begged until God gave in to their wishes; But NOT without WARNING. And WHAT was the WARNING: that WHEN they GOT what they wanted, they would be STUCK with it. BOUND to deal with it no matter what. If the King decided to 'go to war', then their SONS would be REQUIRED to SERVE The Kingdom. If they got a BAD King, they would simply have to SUFFER for it. And we can SEE through the history OF the Kings of Israel that they CERTAINLY had their SHARE of 'bad ones'.

This example is a pretty good representation of WHAT happens when we DECIDE to 'get involved' with POLITICS. WE become the ones that PAY for the consequences. Let me ask this: HOW would you FEEL if YOU were the one that voted in a representative that was RESPONSIBLE for, let's say, OUTLAWING WORSHIP of ANY God other than HIS GOD? I know, rediculous RIGHT. Ok, let's say that it IS. But ANSWER THE QUESTION on a hypothetical basis...................... or you voted in a Political leader who decided to declare WAR against another country UNPROVOKED, simply for gain of what they had that HE wanted? Or, you voted in a 'whoremonger', HOW would you FEEL about that. For these are WHAT we are FORCED to BECOME a 'part of' when we JOIN IN 'with the WORLD' and it's WORLDLY habits or institutions.

This ISSUE has NOT distinctive ANSWER so far as The Word is concerned. But IF we take Christ as an example, I think that it would BE perfectly SAFE to assume that He would have taken NO part in POLITICS. He would simply have WARNED those that would CHOOSE righteousness to BEWARE of the implication and responsibility of GETTING INVOLVED.

Personal opinion of course, but BASED on Our COMMAND BY Christ to BE 'separate from the world'. That to LOVE this life or this world is to BE an 'enemy of God'. Once again, we can CLEARLY see that in politics there is NO UNITY 'except' in PARTY lines. For the IN group ALWAYS separates ITSELF from the 'other groups'. This is NOT 'unity'. This is 'unity of the ELITE'. In essence TOTALLY against the ENTIRE premiss of unity to start with. For we were told that EVEN those that are LOST love their family and friends, but WE AS CHRISTIANS are to LOVE our ENEMIES as well.

Think about it.

MEC

 

[cyberjosh]

BFSmith764,

You are certainly entitled your opinion, and it appears that you will not be voting this year, but the Bible does say that no one comes to power apart from God's appointment. Yes, there is a god of this world, but let us not pretend that all are susceptible to him. I do not believe Bush is, even if he isn't the most perfect guy.

Plain and simple, no I do not think it is wrong to vote. If you disagree I'd like to see Biblical evidence that would discourage me from doing so. Also the founding of our nation on Christian Principles at the First Continental Congress, which was opened with a prayer, that has established this great freedom we now have in this country rested upon the human right to liberty rather than tyrany, like the British Crown had been to the people. If we all stopped voting we would regress to allowing monarchies or even dictatorships to rise. To not vote (on the whole - though not everyone must) would be negligence, and therefore wrong. And to say Christians cannot vote, then leaves the decision to the unbelievers (bad choice!), and would not reflect the founding on this nation of Democracy under-girded by Christian Principles, which even so did not credit their leaders as perfect.

So no, it is not wrong for a Christian to vote but infact upholds our freedom and hopes of leading a peaceful life in godliness.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Barbara Allan]

Yes, but don't expect politics to make you happy. And be careful of using religion for political gain as so many of our political preachers have done.

 

[BFSmith764]

BFSmith764,

You are certainly entitled your opinion, and it appears that you will not be voting this year, but the Bible does say that no one comes to power apart from God's appointment. Yes, there is a god of this world, but let us not pretend that all are susceptible to him. I do not believe Bush is, even if he isn't the most perfect guy.

Those of and in the would not and does not believe that they are being used by Satan, in fact they would view anyone that say they are as a fool, and will not listen to them as we have seen in the scriptures, with those whom God sent to speak His words. Scriptures show that only the very few are not deceived. The deceived is just as convinced that he is not as much as the one who know he/she is not deceived.

It is easy to know when one is of God; it is by their deeds.....our action tells others if we are truly what we claim to be, as the scriptures tell us.

Plain and simple, no I do not think it is wrong to vote. If you disagree I'd like to see Biblical evidence that would discourage me from doing so.

I believe I have given enough scriptures...if one cannot see in a room with the lights on, then the problem is with the individual.

Also the founding of our nation on Christian Principles at the First Continental Congress, which was opened with a prayer, that has established this great freedom we now have in this country rested upon the human right to liberty rather than tyrany, like the British Crown had been to the people. If we all stopped voting we would regress to allowing monarchies or even dictatorships to rise. To not vote (on the whole - though not everyone must) would be negligence, and therefore wrong. And to say Christians cannot vote, then leaves the decision to the unbelievers (bad choice!), and would not reflect the founding on this nation of Democracy under-girded by Christian Principles, which even so did not credit their leaders as perfect.

These so call Christian leaders were the same ones that enslaved other human beings that were made in the image of God. They not only refuse to recognize the African slaves their God given rights, they in fact refuse to acknowledge them as human beings. Oh how we love to boast about our goodness while oppressing the poor and weak among us.

So no, it is not wrong for a Christian to vote but infact upholds our freedom and hopes of leading a peaceful life in godliness.

God Bless,

~Josh

The freedom that you believe you have is an illusion created by the very people that hold political office, whom are under the influence of the god of this world. Even as we speak, the false freedom that some of us think we have is slowly being taken away.

 

[cyberjosh]

Tell me then BFSmith764, what type of government would you prefer us have then? Should we be an anarchist society? Perhaps antinomian? Or the opposite extreme, dictatorship? Would you like our nation to be like China, who persecutes and even kills Christians?

Yes, few are those that find the road to salvation, but God can use rulers and you have yet to prove that voting is wrong, because it is not wrong. We want to promote structure in Government and voice of the people lest you want to return to a slave-like society like you mentioned.

Also Fredrich Douglas in his Biography, in the appendix to it, explicitly denied that "slave master Christianity" was even Christianity at all. Those at the First Continental Congress did have the basic principles right, even if they took a more deist approach to it. They genuinely believed in God-given freedoms, and thus Jefferson wrote about it in our Constitution. Our Declaration of Independance and our establishment as united states came on the heels of the Great Awakening, and George Whitefield who knew Benjamin Franklin and who preached all throughout the colonies, amassed a universal following of his preaching in the colonies that gave them the first sense of unionship before the ratification of our Constitution. God has worked in our nation and to deny that you would have to be a fool. Our society has degraded in many ways, but it is still in our interests to vote so that a fair person may be put in office. And if who you voted for does not get elected you still will have peace that you voted concientiously.

FYI I voted for Mike Huckabee, and he is a man of God.

~Josh

 

[Scott1]

Yes, few are those that find the road to salvation, but God can use rulers and you have yet to prove that voting is wrong, because it is not wrong. We want to promote structure in Government and voice of the people lest you want to return to a slave-like society like you mentioned.

Amen!

I believe it is the duty of citizens to work with civil authority for building up society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom... and exercising the right to vote is an integral part of that.

"Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."(Mt 22:21)

A Christian must be part of the process, lest those with no faith will make sure you don't have to worry about a "decision" to vote or not.... they'll take it from you.

 

[BFSmith764]

Tell me then BFSmith764, what type of government would you prefer us have then? Should we be an anarchist society? Perhaps antinomian? Or the opposite extreme, dictatorship? Would you like our nation to be like China, who persecutes and even kills Christians?

Every single human government, including the US is guilty of persecuting some group or the other. I pledge no loyalty to any.....my loyalty is to the government of God. That is the government that I am under. All other government are simply puppets of Satan, of which God use from time to time to fulfill certain prophecies.

Yes, few are those that find the road to salvation, but God can use rulers and you have yet to prove that voting is wrong, because it is not wrong. We want to promote structure in Government and voice of the people lest you want to return to a slave-like society like you mentioned.

Yes as I said God use rulers (The king of Babylon in the Old Testament was one of them) from time to time to fulfill certain Bible prophecies, but as far as the gospel is concern, it is the Church that God commissioned to go through out the world and preach.

Also Fredrich Douglas in his Biography, in the appendix to it, explicitly denied that "slave master Christianity" was even Christianity at all. .

Well that was my point....I don't need Fredrick Douglass to tell me that; the scriptures tells us that those who claim to be, but ask in that way they did tells us who they really were.

Those at the First Continental Congress did have the basic principles right, even if they took a more deist approach to it. They genuinely believed in God-given freedoms, and thus Jefferson wrote about it in our Constitution. Our Declaration of Independance and our establishment as united states came on the heels of the Great Awakening, and George Whitefield who knew Benjamin Franklin and who preached all throughout the colonies, amassed a universal following of his preaching in the colonies that gave them the first sense of unionship before the ratification of our Constitution. God has worked in our nation and to deny that you would have to be a fool. Our society has degraded in many ways, but it is still in our interests to vote so that a fair person may be put in office. And if who you voted for does not get elected you still will have peace that you voted concientiously..

They believe it for themselves but they never believe that those who were slave had that right just as much as they have that right. And even if they did, how many of them did anything or put there lives on the line to defend those rights of the slaves? The Constitution was Witten by white property owners, who owned slaves; they did not even recognized the rights of women,white or black.

How we love to view our history through rose colored glasses.

 

[cyberjosh]

Every single human government, including the US is guilty of persecuting some group or the other. I pledge no loyalty to any.....my loyalty is to the government of God. That is the government that I am under. All other government are simply puppets of Satan, of which God use from time to time to fulfill certain prophecies.

I'm so very sorry to hear that Jesus does not have the power to save leaders of nations. And here I was thinking God could do anything.

Moses was also foolish to take His Father in law's (Jethro's) advice to appoint 70 elders over the tribes of Israel, and under them appoint other leaders. David was also foolish to think he could be an earthly king to the people, taking God's place and instead doing the things that "kings do". Esther also was foolish to think that she ever could have been appointed "for such a time as this" to save her people. God also, most of all, must have been the most foolish in allowing His people to have any earthly government and have judges and kings.

What a shame, and I thought God understood how humans on earth need heirarchy and representatives.

 

[BFSmith764]

[I'm so very sorry to hear that Jesus does not have the power to save leaders of nations. And here I was thinking God could do anything.

That a pretty big leap form what I said.....no where did I say that Jesus does not have the power to save leaders of nations. The question though is that what He is doing? Does not the scripture say that not many wise or noble are called? And that God has called the weak to confound that mighty.

When one study the entire Bible, you will see that it tells us that the world would only get worse to the point that God people are going to be persecuted on a global scale. We need to understand while we want to do good, it must be according to His will....it must be according to what is revealed in the scriptures. The scriptures tells us that the only way this word will ever be right in God's eyes, is when Jesus returns and set up His kingdom on the earth.

Moses was also foolish to take His Father in law's (Jethro's) advice to appoint 70 elders over the tribes of Israel, and under them appoint other leaders. David was also foolish to think he could be an earthly king to the people, taking God's place and instead doing the things that "kings do". Esther also was foolish to think that she ever could have been appointed "for such a time as this" to save her people. God also, most of all, must have been the most foolish in allowing His people to have any earthly government and have judges and kings..

Now this is where we go wrong; we keep misapplying certain things in the Bible that does not apply to us. The Children of Israel were God's chosen nation; they were the children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, whom were obedient to God, and because of that He told them that He would bless their descendants. We are not under that old system, where God was only dwelling among them (except for a few whom God lived in), and was His people. We are under a much better system....a system were God now dwells in the individual person, by grace.

And even with Israel, as they steadily slipped away from God after constantly warning and telling them to repent and turn back to Him by the prophets that He sent them. He left them to do as they wanted, until they were carried away into slavery and lost from history, though I would dare say that the United States of America is one of the tribes of Israel. And I will also dare say that these same people are destined again for bondage.

What a shame, and I thought God understood how humans on earth need heirarchy and representatives.

Those who have been baptized and received the Holy Spirit are the true representatives of God, not those who care not for God or believes that He exist. Yes as I said before God use leaders of nations, especially those of more powerful ones, to fulfill or help to fulfill Bible prophecies. But a true representatives of God are those whom God lives in. Remember when Paul was persecuting the Church, what Jesus said to him? "Paul why are you persecuting me?" You look to non believers in the government as leaders, but fail to realize that you are a leader.....every Christian is a leader, which is why we are to be a light to the world. We are the light, because we show the true path to walk....only a true leader can do that, and one does not need to be in politics to be a leader.

 

[cyberjosh]

[I'm so very sorry to hear that Jesus does not have the power to save leaders of nations. And here I was thinking God could do anything.

That a pretty big leap form what I said.....no where did I say that Jesus does not have the power to save leaders of nations. The question though is that what He is doing? Does not the scripture say that not many wise or noble are called? And that God has called the weak to confound that mighty.

Yes but that is speaking of God's universal plan for salvation, and also not everyone who rules is necessarily of rich or noble background. Moses was humble and even unsure of himself at first but God gave him strength to rule and lead the Israelites.

At the same time God has good uses for that strength in government (although it is clear that abuses are condemned):

"For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. " (Romans 13:3-4)

God uses laws of Government for righteousness, and to ensure justice. By not voting we cannot put good judges into office (and negligently just letting any judge into office would pervert justice greatly!), nor good law enforcement (those who bear the actual "sword"), nor a good executive leader to be over these various functions of government. To not vote when we are graciously given the chance is foolish negligence in my eyes.

When one study the entire Bible, you will see that it tells us that the world would only get worse to the point that God people are going to be persecuted on a global scale. We need to understand while we want to do good, it must be according to His will....it must be according to what is revealed in the scriptures. The scriptures tells us that the only way this word will ever be right in God's eyes, is when Jesus returns and set up His kingdom on the earth.

We are not going contrary to God's will by voting! As if that could stop Him anyway. We are doing what is our legal right to do as citizens of our government and we are allowed to operate in the confines of the law of our government. Also electing a leader, as I showed before, is shown all throughout the Bible in principle, and the Church even is called to acknowledge those in the church who are honorable and who are fit to lead. Similarly we would do well to encourage a decent leader in the secular world as well. It is not a fun thing to be in a secular world, but we can in hopes of making it more just and bearable cooperate with the existing paradigm to ensure that a good leader is in place.

God never has required a fulfillment of His plans to be prepared for in a way that demands an abandonment of prudence on our part. Did God ever tell the Israelites he would fight for them in battle? Yes, but did this mean they didn't have to wake the army and get ready? I'm speaking in principle here. Similarly God would not require us to abandon all discernment of selecting a leader (hey, while we're here on earth we have to live with the leaders elected - and neglect doesn't help!).

Leave the final decision of when all hope is lost for decent human government up to God, and in the mean time don't be negligent.

Now this is where we go wrong; we keep misapplying certain things in the Bible that does not apply to us. The Children of Israel were God's chosen nation; they were the children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, whom were obedient to God, and because of that He told them that He would bless their descendants. We are not under that old system, where God was only dwelling among them (except for a few whom God lived in), and was His people.

I'm not misapplying, I'm showing you principles, principles which you clearly are missing. The Davidic Kingship is no longer on earth, but we now have a King in Heaven who is not above working through human government, "for rulers are servants of God" (Romans 13:6). Now obviously if there are no good choices to vote for that you see then do not vote, thus I said to vote conscientiously, but (for example) I do believe Bush was a better candidate than the Liberal John Kerry, and I therefore was glad that Bush got relected.

We are under a much better system....a system were God now dwells in the individual person, by grace.

Of course, these are internal salvation related realities, but while we still live and move about in this world we would to well to do everything we can to contribute to righteousness and justice being represented on earth.

And even with Israel, as they steadily slipped away from God after constantly warning and telling them to repent and turn back to Him by the prophets that He sent them. He left them to do as they wanted, until they were carried away into slavery and lost from history, though I would dare say that the United States of America is one of the tribes of Israel. And I will also dare say that these same people are destined again for bondage.

Those are national examples, and God will judge the nation as a whole, but for those righteous in the land God might show mercy as he has in the past. Also we will leave destiny to God, so let us not think we are contributing by our negligence.

Those who have been baptized and received the Holy Spirit are the true representatives of God, not those who care not for God or believes that He exist. Yes as I said before God use leaders of nations, especially those of more powerful ones, to fulfill or help to fulfill Bible prophecies.

Not just that, I showed you above that the Government fulfills a God-ordained function to execute righteousness and justice in the land. When it fails that justice to it's people is when it gets judged, but when there is a new opportunity for a new leader to take office that can reform and make things better (examples of Kings in the OT have done this as well) then we can contribute to making things better is we vote for sake of our principles and wanting to see justice increase.

You look to non believers in the government as leaders, but fail to realize that you are a leader.....

I do no such thing, but I realize that the Government is God-ordained but that if they go so far as to work contrary to God that I must stand as the disciples to the Sanhedrin and say, "I must obey God rather than men" (which was not an anarchist statement however). I know I'm a leader, but I haven't been called into the political sphere for my life ministry (although some Christians are). I follow my conscience as manifested before God, and my conscience does not condemn me for voting for a person I think will execute justice.

one does not need to be in politics to be a leader.

Quite true. You will see we have no disagreement there.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Imagican]

Allow me to offer this:

Do ANY of us BELIEVE that we are ABLE to usurp the AUTHORITY of God? That WE are able to proceed in ANY direction that was NOT forseen by our Father?

In this respect it is HE who determines WHO He ALLOWS in power and WHO He takes OUT OF POWER".

Example:

We can CLEARLY SEE through Biblical and Secular history that Egypt was a RULING power for well OVER TWO THOUSAND YEARS. They were, for MOST of this TIME, the most advanced civilization on the planet. A history that spans a time period WELL BEYOND that of ANY OTHER before durring or SINCE.

Now, WHAT HAPPENED to EGYPT. How is it that TODAY, those that are NATIVES of this country do NOT EVEN KNOW HOW TO READ their ancient language? HAVE ONLY what history that OTHERS have been ABLE to offer concerning their PAST?

The answer is quite simple. BECAUSE of their MISTREATMENT of the Hebrews/Jews OVER AND OVER again, God PROMISED that HE would 'strike them DOWN'. To MAKE THEM the 'basest' of ALL nations. NEVER to regain their former GLORY EVER AGAIN.

What we SEE today is the result of God's promise. For we do NOT EVEN KNOW what HAPPENED to this great nation. Where the pyramids stand ALONE in a barren dessert was ONCE a lush environment capable of sustaining one of the LARGEST single populations on the planet at the time. And LOOK at it NOW. JUST recently have we discovered that there was ONCE a thriving metropolis in this BAREN WASTELAND.

some would offer 'climate change' as the culprit. Some would claim that wars that we have NO record of destroyed them or that their own pollitcal strife from wihin destroyed them. What EVER the CAUSE may have been, ONE THING is for CERTAIN: God DID promise to 'take away' their glory. To 'take away' their power. And what we see today is a nation that struggles for it's own recognition. A country that has little more power than Iraq or Iran. And a country who's OWN PEOPLE don't even have a RECOLLECTION of their PAST.

Now, WHAT has 'changed' TODAY? How are 'things' ANY different NOW than they were from the beginning? God has NOT 'changed'. His LOVE is the SAME today as it was yesterday. His ANGER is the 'same' today as it was yesterday. And His POWER is the SAME today as it was yesterday.

Folks, if you honestly BELIEVE that YOU can make a difference by VOTING, you are simply FOOLING yourself into an unnatural belief. For, as your vote MAY be able to be counted and affect the outcome of an election, it will have NO BEARING on HOW things are GOING to 'work out' according to what God has ALREADY SEEN. The prophecy that we have been offered CANNOT be altered in substance. In TIME perhaps, for we DO NOT know whether God OFFERS a 'change in time' according to HIS will or NOT. But suffice is to say that it is perhaps this VERY reason that not even the SON knows of the TIME of His return. For it it up to the FATHER to decide WHEN He has 'had enough'.

But we ARE unable to usurp the AUTHORIY of God no matter WHAT we BELIEVE. There will BE wars and rumors of wars. There will be HATE, there will be persecution, there will be hunger, there will be jealousy, there will be coveting, there will be thirst, ALL these things UNTIL this world is OVERCOME by Our Savior. ONLY THEN will there BE the PERFECT governing of God's Children. To believe that WE are able to DO this ON OUR OWN is utterly futile. For EVEN at our BEST we are no more able to govern ourselves PROPERLY than history has dictated now for well over FIVE THOUSAND YEARS.

And I have ALREADY offered that there is NO WAY for us to KNOW the hearts of those that we would VOTE for. Would it be prudent to vote for one that YOU KNOW NOTHING about other than 'their words' ONLY to find out that you had VOTED IN the ANTI-Christ.

We ALREADY KNOW that there will come a time when we will be required, (those alive on this earth), to TAKE a 'mark'. Don't want to get into a debate over the exact NATURE of this 'mark' but I think that ALL will agree that this IS prophecy of a time in the future. Do you NOT realize that it will BE a 'government' that will DICTATE this COMMAND. That SOMEONE WILL be responsible for PLACING this institution IN POWER. And can't you just SEE what would be written of those that PRODUCE this institution? WOE to them. Woe to those that bend and bow to the desires of that 'hidden ONE', that serpent or deciever that will deliver the WORST punishment that this planet has EVER experienced.

So, DO WE VOTE? I won't and not ONLY for the reasons outlined here. I could go on for days on this subject. But suffice IS to say that we were TOLD to be satisfied with our POSITIONS in life. NOT to 'go against the flow' so long as we do NOT compromise our belief in God and His Son. That we ARE to separate ourselves from this world. IF POLITICS is NOT a rudiment OF THIS WORLD, then I guess I'm JUST a 'confused Floridian Rube', void of ANY understanding.

These are JUST opinions of course, for there is NOTHING outright offered in scripture concerning the election of officials in a government. But we DO have the example of the Hebrews/Jews that WERE NOT SATISFIED with a Spiritual King and insisted AGAINST the wishes of God to HAVE a PHYSICAL King that they could serve. And when we read in Numbers and such WHAT price they paid for their folly, I would THINK that this would be a pretty clear offering in OPPOSITION to becoming INVOLVED with politics.

Just MY opinion of course.

MEC

 

[stovebolts]

MEC,

First:
9(a) - Please keep posts down to a respectable length and provide source and/or links for your info.

Second:
This is the Bible Study forum, it is where all are welcome to study what the Bible has to say on biblical matters. Please refrain from posting pure opinion as we try and maintain the integrity and purpose of this forum.

Thank you.

 

[cyberjosh]

MEC,

Perhaps I will find time to respond to your points later, but for my immediate purposes the question posed to me is: Is it morally wrong for a Christian to vote? And the answer (as I have contended) is no. If not I guess I am a practicer of immorality and the Holy Spirit is not strong enough to convict me about it.

P.S. Our government was originally a Republic but it is moving more and more into a Democracy which is allowing corrupt new comers to change our laws more and more from the Constitution which was founded on principles instilled in them by the strong presence of Puritanism in the Colonies. We unfortunately are moving more and more away from enforcing true law as set forth in the Constitution, and justice is suffering along the way. Politics very much concerns us MEC because it effects how we live. And as I pointed out, there are some Christians whose ministries may be to serve in Politics. Yes politics has evils, but it equally has goods. See my previous post for more about that.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[BFSmith764]

Yes but that is speaking of God's universal plan for salvation, and also not everyone who rules is necessarily of rich or noble background. Moses was humble and even unsure of himself at first but God gave him strength to rule and lead the Israelites.

There you go again, applying Old Testament Covenant by race with the New Testament Covenant of grace. What was applicable under the Old Covenant is not applicable under the New Covenant. In the Old Testament, God called a nation out from physical slavery to be His chosen people. They were called to be a light to the other nations around them; they also had to have leaders who were men filed with the Spirit of God, to be a representative of God and to pass on God's word to them.

Now in the New Testament, we are no longer under that Old Covenant, but under a far better one; which is by grace. This means that God is calling not a nation out of physical slavery, but individuals out of spiritual slavery. God through Jesus started His Church, in Jerusalem among the former people of God (the Jews) to be a light to Jews and Gentiles. Just as Israel had leaders who were appointed by God, so in the Church He has set up leaders to teach His people. The Church and the individual Christian is suppose to represent God to unbelievers, but we’re not to impose what we believe on them.....they are to see God in us by deeds. The Greek word for Church ekklēsia, and means called out ones.....called out from where? Called out of this world. Since God has called His people out of this world, then why would one want to go back into this world of Satan? The political system of this world is corrupt; it is corrupt because Satan is the god is this world; we are to come out of her as Jesus says in Revelation.

This world is doomed for destruction and to go back into it is to reap the punishment of God when Jesus returned. Jesus did not set up His Church to make this world a Godly one, but to have a people ready and prepared for a new one. At Jesus' return He will set up His kingdom on the earth, and those who have been faithful will rule with Him in that kingdom. That is why Jesus said His Kingdome was not of the world/age. He also said that He was not off this world, and in another place said that His disciples were not of this world as He was, and by extension that includes us. The scriptures also say that we are pilgrims and sojourners on the earth. Pilgrims are not involved in the political system of the country they are temporarily living in.

At the same time God has good uses for that strength in government (although it is clear that abuses are condemned):

I think I made that point in one of my post.

"For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. " (Romans 13:3-4))

One must be very carful when using that scripture because not all rulers do good and the Bible tells us that many of God's people were persecuted by people in authority. The Church will be persecuted in the Great Tribulation, and even now many of God's people in some countries are being persecuted by the government....this scripture does not apply in every case. Christians are under no obligation to do what the government says if what they are expected to do is a violation of God's will.....a Christian lives by the government of God and not the government of men.

"God uses laws of Government for righteousness, and to ensure justice. By not voting we cannot put good judges into office (and negligently just letting any judge into office would pervert justice greatly!), nor good law enforcement (those who bear the actual "sword"), nor a good executive leader to be over these various functions of government. To not vote when we are graciously given the chance is foolish negligence in my eyes.

There is no real justice under man's government; under Satan's influence......a Christian looks to God for justice. A Christian puts no confidence in the mercy of man. American is regarded as a Christian nation, and makes up 5% of the world's population yet it has 35% of the prison population. Many people have been unjustly put in prison and even executed. In America's prisons, people are used as slaves for the benefit of corporations, but take away jobs from those not in prisons. The countries that call themselves Christians are usually the most racist and oppressive toward the weak and defenseless. American has been and still is very unchristian to Native Americans. I don't believe that they would speak as highly of America as you would.

We are not going contrary to God's will by voting! As if that could stop Him anyway. We are doing what is our legal right to do as citizens of our government and we are allowed to operate in the confines of the law of our government. Also electing a leader, as I showed before, is shown all throughout the Bible in principle, and the Church even is called to acknowledge those in the church who are honorable and who are fit to lead. Similarly we would do well to encourage a decent leader in the secular world as well. It is not a fun thing to be in a secular world, but we can in hopes of making it more just and bearable cooperate with the existing paradigm to ensure that a good leader is in place. .

Well then you are trying to serve two masters....to be a citizen of two or more country will put one into a unpleasant situation sooner or later.

I won't go any farther because as just as I am convinced of what I believe, so are you and I will not waste any more time. But you will see what I am saying if you live long enough.

 

[BFSmith764]

MEC,

Perhaps I will find time to respond to your points later, but for my immediate purposes the question posed to me is: Is it morally wrong for a Christian to vote? And the answer (as I have contended) is no. If not I guess I am a practicer of immorality and the Holy Spirit is not strong enough to convict me about it.

P.S. Our government was originally a Republic but it is moving more and more into a Democracy which is allowing corrupt new comers to change our laws more and more from the Constitution which was founded on principles instilled in them by the strong presence of Puritanism in the Colonies. We unfortunately are moving more and more away from enforcing true law as set forth in the Constitution, and justice is suffering along the way. Politics very much concerns us MEC because it effects how we live. And as I pointed out, there are some Christians whose ministries may be to serve in Politics. Yes politics has evils, but it equally has goods. See my previous post for more about that.

God Bless,

~Josh

If we were to ask the Native Americans who were more corrupt,what do you think they would say? And if one were to have ask the slaves what answer would they give?

As Solomon said, "everyone is pure in his own eyes but God searches the heart" And it is not what we say about ourselves that tell us about ourselves,its usually those whom have dealth with along the way.

no one will ever be pure in God's eyes but patting himself or herself on the back. Is this the attitude that this Country has?

Luke 18:13 (ASV)
13 But the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote his breast, saying, God, be thou merciful to me a sinner.

Or is it this one?

Luke 18:9-12 (ASV)
9 And he spake also this parable unto certain who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and set all others at nought:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as the rest of men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week; I give tithes of all that I get.


Anyone or nation that exault it self will be made low.

Luke 18:14 (ASV)
14 I say unto you, This man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be humbled; but he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.



One of many reasons why this nation is in the state that it’s in is because it has been exalting itself above other nations as if it is any more righteous than they were. It has committed just as much crimes against its citizen as any other. In fact as Martin Luther King once said, “America is the greatest purveyor of violence around the world.†They hated him for the truth he told, a nation that had no conscience. As it was with ancient Israelites with the prophets of God, and he (Martin Luther King) was killed for it as they were. This country will continue to decline and experience the hell its government has put other people through. In fact it will be the American government that will unleash the horrors on its own people that it has put on others.

Question: are we ready for the unthinkable? Are we ready to see people starving and dyeing of hunger in the millions? Are we ready to experience government terror on its own people, that will make Hitler look like Pee Wee Herman?