Bible Study Should A Christian Vote?

[cyberjosh]

There you go again, applying Old Testament Covenant by race with the New Testament Covenant of grace. What was applicable under the Old Covenant is not applicable under the New Covenant.

You really don't listen do you? I clearly said I was applying principles, obviously something you don't understand. I was in no way paralleling Moses to modern day leaders, and if you thought I was then you are clearly confused. I also said that such specific appointments in the OT for leadership, using David's Kingship as an example, I clearly acknowledged was no longer on earth. But I clearly said that God uses human government.

In the Old Testament, God called a nation out from physical slavery to be His chosen people. They were called to be a light to the other nations around them; they also had to have leaders who were men filed with the Spirit of God, to be a representative of God and to pass on God's word to them.

Once again, completely missed my point.

Now in the New Testament, we are no longer under that Old Covenant, but under a far better one; which is by grace. This means that God is calling not a nation out of physical slavery, but individuals out of spiritual slavery. God through Jesus started His Church, in Jerusalem among the former people of God (the Jews) to be a light to Jews and Gentiles. Just as Israel had leaders who were appointed by God, so in the Church He has set up leaders to teach His people. The Church and the individual Christian is suppose to represent God to unbelievers, but we’re not to impose what we believe on them.....they are to see God in us by deeds. The Greek word for Church ekklēsia, and means called out ones.....called out from where? Called out of this world. Since God has called His people out of this world, then why would one want to go back into this world of Satan? The political system of this world is corrupt; it is corrupt because Satan is the god is this world; we are to come out of her as Jesus says in Revelation.

Babylon the Great is the ultimate object of what you are describing, but we are not there yet. Did you not read what I said about leaving that to God's sovreignty? There is no room on earth presently for us to seperate and form a Christian nation, but what you are asking us to do is unreasonable - and you seek to impose a legalistic moral standard which condemns anyone participating in politics (even Christians who are in political offices - and I think we should have Christians in office!).

This world is doomed for destruction and to go back into it is to reap the punishment of God when Jesus returned.

Read: "So lets just jump ship and withdrawl from society like monks do, thinking such seperation is beneficial."

I honestly think the Christian concern in government is what is keeping the leash on horrible atrocities happening in government. We atleast fight against things when they seek to remove the Ten Commandments from Court houses and prayer from schools. We need Christian representatives in government, not to run and back down from it. To back down when we could make a difference is negligence (as I've said over and over). This goes beyond just voting now, because you are making sweeping statements which absolves all Christians from societal services by calling such associations morally wrong. I disagree.

Jesus did not set up His Church to make this world a Godly one, but to have a people ready and prepared for a new one.

Of course not, I look forward to the day when Jesus comes back as much as you, but that doesn't mean we don't seek to make the world a better place while we are in it (which will not be as possible during the Tribulation - as you point out - thus we presently have that grace, and should make use of it). By upholding Christian values in even government we can ensure a better atmosphere for moral goods in society. God knows what would happen in this country if all vestiges of Christianity were expunged!

At Jesus' return He will set up His kingdom on the earth, and those who have been faithful will rule with Him in that kingdom. That is why Jesus said His Kingdome was not of the world/age.

I know that. I think you are misapplying your conculsions.

He also said that He was not off this world, and in another place said that His disciples were not of this world as He was, and by extension that includes us. The scriptures also say that we are pilgrims and sojourners on the earth. Pilgrims are not involved in the political system of the country they are temporarily living in.

Now that last part is an assumption, and one that says "we should not impact the environment we live in". Lets face it government permeates everything, even to those who enforce the law to keep you from speeding each day as you go to work. Should a Christian not even be a Police officer? How bout a mayor? How about even working for the Mayor? I mean c'mon where are you drawing the line here? You might as well cry "Heretic, heretic!" to anyone who aids the concerns of law.

One must be very carful when using that scripture because not all rulers do good and the Bible tells us that many of God's people were persecuted by people in authority.

Yet obviously God didn't lie at the same time when inspiring that Scripture in Romans. Sure we will be persecuted, but it doesn't mean we can't participate in government in any fashion. Our representation in the world we live in should be clear, and sometimes is has to be fought for, and Christians who are in political office can do that for us (although it is by no means the only way - just another front for it to be fought on). Also even if our President is not a Christian that does not mean that the person is unable to enforce good laws based on principles that Christians have fought for and do support.

The Church will be persecuted in the Great Tribulation, and even now many of God's people in some countries are being persecuted by the government....

Yes but now isn't the Tribulation. Once again, I say to leave that timing to God. Also yes, many in other countries (China especially) do persecute Christians physically, but that makes us all the more lucky that we are respected enough to have a voice in our Government when other's aren't. One good thing I can point you to about Christian influence in our Government is our alliance with Israel. Sure the Government may have military concerns with them as well, but at the advice of many ministers who the Presidents of the past have given audience to, their opinions have significantly swayed the US's favor toward Israel. Pastors such as Billy Graham have advised Presidents on such matters, and I think Billy Graham did an outstanding job by representing Christianity to Presidents who were willing to listen. Are you missing my points all together?

Christians are under no obligation to do what the government says if what they are expected to do is a violation of God's will....

I've already said this and qualified my statement. You really should read what I say more closely and maybe we would disagree less. I mentioned what the disciples said to the Sanhedrin about obeying God over men.

a Christian lives by the government of God and not the government of men.

Yes, but we can be God's representatives on earth. No where in the Bible does it forbid Christians to represent Christianity to Government, in whatever form it may take.

There is no real justice under man's government;

That Scripture I quoted begs to differ. No not perfect justice, of course not -and yes some Countries governments are completely corrupt - yet thank God he sovereignly guided the formation of the US (unless we were just an "oops" to God), where we can reform and have decent representation in this country. The idea of "no taxation without representation" was very wise in that is prevents the government from abusing the people financially over taxes that even Jesus says we should render to Government. I think we should take advantage of that representation, and represent Christ. What about you?

A Christian puts no confidence in the mercy of man.

Our hope is in God, but I tell you what, I'd sure be glad when I'm standing in a court if I knew that the judge over my case had high moral integrity. How bout you?

American is regarded as a Christian nation, and makes up 5% of the world's population yet it has 35% of the prison population. Many people have been unjustly put in prison and even executed. In America's prisons, people are used as slaves for the benefit of corporations, but take away jobs from those not in prisons. The countries that call themselves Christians are usually the most racist and oppressive toward the weak and defenseless. American has been and still is very unchristian to Native Americans. I don't believe that they would speak as highly of America as you would.

I think you are coming off as a glass-is-half-empty person. I don't think you give God credit for blessing in this country because you have an agenda to point out the injustices in this country while not doing a thing about it (correct me if I'm wrong). Well there are Christians that do want to do something about it and you would seem to condemn them for trying.

Well then you are trying to serve two masters....

Presumptuous statement. You clearly have not considered my arguement which I so reasonably started to defend but have now forced me to use more stern words about.

to be a citizen of two or more country will put one into a unpleasant situation sooner or later.

And the Bible says to die is gain, so should we then commit suicide? That would make about as much sense as what you are proposing we do concerning government.

I won't go any farther because as just as I am convinced of what I believe, so are you and I will not waste any more time. But you will see what I am saying if you live long enough.

I already know to what you are refering, and you are mostly right in that we will have no cooperation with the government at all in the end times (much less the actual Tribulation), but you miss my points on obtaining balance and cooperation where we can get it.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Anyway, I hope our disagreements don't drive a wedge between us (especially over an issue non-essential to our salvation). I hope we have many more conversations in the future, hopefully over Bible studies and theology, in which we will agree beautifully and glorify God's name.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[BFSmith764]

There you go again, applying Old Testament Covenant by race with the New Testament Covenant of grace. What was applicable under the Old Covenant is not applicable under the New Covenant.

You really don't listen do you? I clearly said I was applying principles, obviously something you don't understand. I was in no way paralleling Moses to modern day leaders, and if you thought I was then you are clearly confused. I also said that such specific appointments in the OT for leadership, using David's Kingship as an example, I clearly acknowledged was no longer on earth. But I clearly said that God uses human government.

In the Old Testament, God called a nation out from physical slavery to be His chosen people. They were called to be a light to the other nations around them; they also had to have leaders who were men filed with the Spirit of God, to be a representative of God and to pass on God's word to them.

Once again, completely missed my point.

Now in the New Testament, we are no longer under that Old Covenant, but under a far better one; which is by grace. This means that God is calling not a nation out of physical slavery, but individuals out of spiritual slavery. God through Jesus started His Church, in Jerusalem among the former people of God (the Jews) to be a light to Jews and Gentiles. Just as Israel had leaders who were appointed by God, so in the Church He has set up leaders to teach His people. The Church and the individual Christian is suppose to represent God to unbelievers, but we’re not to impose what we believe on them.....they are to see God in us by deeds. The Greek word for Church ekklēsia, and means called out ones.....called out from where? Called out of this world. Since God has called His people out of this world, then why would one want to go back into this world of Satan? The political system of this world is corrupt; it is corrupt because Satan is the god is this world; we are to come out of her as Jesus says in Revelation.

Babylon the Great is the ultimate object of what you are describing, but we are not there yet. Did you not read what I said about leaving that to God's sovreignty? There is no room on earth presently for us to seperate and form a Christian nation, but what you are asking us to do is unreasonable - and you seek to impose a legalistic moral standard which condemns anyone participating in politics (even Christians who are in political offices - and I think we should have Christians in office!).

This world is doomed for destruction and to go back into it is to reap the punishment of God when Jesus returned.

Read: "So lets just jump ship and withdrawl from society like monks do, thinking such seperation is beneficial."

I honestly think the Christian concern in government is what is keeping the leash on horrible atrocities happening in government. We atleast fight against things when they seek to remove the Ten Commandments from Court houses and prayer from schools. We need Christian representatives in government, not to run and back down from it. To back down when we could make a difference is negligence (as I've said over and over). This goes beyond just voting now, because you are making sweeping statements which absolves all Christians from societal services by calling such associations morally wrong. I disagree.

Jesus did not set up His Church to make this world a Godly one, but to have a people ready and prepared for a new one.

Of course not, I look forward to the day when Jesus comes back as much as you, but that doesn't mean we don't seek to make the world a better place while we are in it (which will not be as possible during the Tribulation - as you point out - thus we presently have that grace, and should make use of it). By upholding Christian values in even government we can ensure a better atmosphere for moral goods in society. God knows what would happen in this country if all vestiges of Christianity were expunged!

At Jesus' return He will set up His kingdom on the earth, and those who have been faithful will rule with Him in that kingdom. That is why Jesus said His Kingdome was not of the world/age.

I know that. I think you are misapplying your conculsions.

He also said that He was not off this world, and in another place said that His disciples were not of this world as He was, and by extension that includes us. The scriptures also say that we are pilgrims and sojourners on the earth. Pilgrims are not involved in the political system of the country they are temporarily living in.

Now that last part is an assumption, and one that says "we should not impact the environment we live in". Lets face it government permeates everything, even to those who enforce the law to keep you from speeding each day as you go to work. Should a Christian not even be a Police officer? How bout a mayor? How about even working for the Mayor? I mean c'mon where are you drawing the line here? You might as well cry "Heretic, heretic!" to anyone who aids the concerns of law.

One must be very carful when using that scripture because not all rulers do good and the Bible tells us that many of God's people were persecuted by people in authority.

Yet obviously God didn't lie at the same time when inspiring that Scripture in Romans. Sure we will be persecuted, but it doesn't mean we can't participate in government in any fashion. Our representation in the world we live in should be clear, and sometimes is has to be fought for, and Christians who are in political office can do that for us (although it is by no means the only way - just another front for it to be fought on). Also even if our President is not a Christian that does not mean that the person is unable to enforce good laws based on principles that Christians have fought for and do support.

The Church will be persecuted in the Great Tribulation, and even now many of God's people in some countries are being persecuted by the government....

Yes but now isn't the Tribulation. Once again, I say to leave that timing to God. Also yes, many in other countries (China especially) do persecute Christians physically, but that makes us all the more lucky that we are respected enough to have a voice in our Government when other's aren't. One good thing I can point you to about Christian influence in our Government is our alliance with Israel. Sure the Government may have military concerns with them as well, but at the advice of many ministers who the Presidents of the past have given audience to, their opinions have significantly swayed the US's favor toward Israel. Pastors such as Billy Graham have advised Presidents on such matters, and I think Billy Graham did an outstanding job by representing Christianity to Presidents who were willing to listen. Are you missing my points all together?

Christians are under no obligation to do what the government says if what they are expected to do is a violation of God's will....

I've already said this and qualified my statement. You really should read what I say more closely and maybe we would disagree less. I mentioned what the disciples said to the Sanhedrin about obeying God over men.

a Christian lives by the government of God and not the government of men.

Yes, but we can be God's representatives on earth. No where in the Bible does it forbid Christians to represent Christianity to Government, in whatever form it may take.

There is no real justice under man's government;

That Scripture I quoted begs to differ. No not perfect justice, of course not -and yes some Countries governments are completely corrupt - yet thank God he sovereignly guided the formation of the US (unless we were just an "oops" to God), where we can reform and have decent representation in this country. The idea of "no taxation without representation" was very wise in that is prevents the government from abusing the people financially over taxes that even Jesus says we should render to Government. I think we should take advantage of that representation, and represent Christ. What about you?

A Christian puts no confidence in the mercy of man.

Our hope is in God, but I tell you what, I'd sure be glad when I'm standing in a court if I knew that the judge over my case had high moral integrity. How bout you?

American is regarded as a Christian nation, and makes up 5% of the world's population yet it has 35% of the prison population. Many people have been unjustly put in prison and even executed. In America's prisons, people are used as slaves for the benefit of corporations, but take away jobs from those not in prisons. The countries that call themselves Christians are usually the most racist and oppressive toward the weak and defenseless. American has been and still is very unchristian to Native Americans. I don't believe that they would speak as highly of America as you would.

I think you are coming off as a glass-is-half-empty person. I don't think you give God credit for blessing in this country because you have an agenda to point out the injustices in this country while not doing a thing about it (correct me if I'm wrong). Well there are Christians that do want to do something about it and you would seem to condemn them for trying.

Well then you are trying to serve two masters....

Presumptuous statement. You clearly have not considered my arguement which I so reasonably started to defend but have now forced me to use more stern words about.

to be a citizen of two or more country will put one into a unpleasant situation sooner or later.

And the Bible says to die is gain, so should we then commit suicide? That would make about as much sense as what you are proposing we do concerning government.

I won't go any farther because as just as I am convinced of what I believe, so are you and I will not waste any more time. But you will see what I am saying if you live long enough.

I already know to what you are refering, and you are mostly right in that we will have no cooperation with the government at all in the end times (much less the actual Tribulation), but you miss my points on obtaining balance and cooperation where we can get it.

God Bless,

~Josh

I think I have made my point; there is nothing more for me to add, I'm moving on.

 

[Barbara Allan]

It was said at one time Paul Weyrich, the man who essentially founded the "Religious Right" (He was the one who urged Jerry Falwell to found "the Moral majority) was deeming the effort a failure and urging Christians of his type to withdraw from politics. Cal Thomas, another religious right figure, also was lately a critic of the movement, saying "the Second Coming will not be aboard Air Force One!" for which he was castigated by James Dobson. However, both Weyrich and Thomas are active this year politically. Weyrich continues to be an eminence grise for the political religious right and Thomas, who has not changed his political convictions, co-writes a column with the liberal former political operative Bob Beckel in which they explore common ground.

Of course, that is only one part of the interesection of politics and Christianity. This year the "religious left" is becoming increasingly active.

This is as it should be. We should participate in politics according to our convictions, but remember politics will not save us. Thomas' dictum rings true.

 

[cyberjosh]

I think I have made my point; there is nothing more for me to add, I'm moving on.

This seems to me like dodging me since you can't answer me. I'm quite sincere in my belief, and I don't think you can put up an adequate defense of your position if you can't answer me. I made some very good points above IMO. I would like to see them answered if you are up to it.

I could have highlighted your entire post and said the same thing. But instead I took the time to respond. You could extend to me the same courtesy.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

We should participate in politics according to our convictions, but remember politics will not save us.

That is my simple conviction as well. I just don't seen why anyone wouldn't take such a balanced position, and rather seek to completely jump ship.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Catholic Crusader]

We should participate in politics according to our convictions, but remember politics will not save us.

That is my simple conviction as well. I just don't seen why anyone wouldn't take such a balanced position, and rather seek to completely jump ship.

Mega Dittos

 

[Rick W]

The liberal left would love those with religious beliefs to "jump ship".
Can't just toss 'em overboard. Too many witnesses :-D

 

[Barbara Allan]

We should participate in politics according to our convictions, but remember politics will not save us.

That is my simple conviction as well. I just don't seen why anyone wouldn't take such a balanced position, and rather seek to completely jump ship.

God Bless,

~Josh

What do you mean by 'jump ship' in this regard?

 

[Barbara Allan]

The liberal left would love those with religious beliefs to "jump ship".
Can't just toss 'em overboard. Too many witnesses :-D

What do you mean?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The liberal left would love those with religious beliefs to "jump ship".
Can't just toss 'em overboard. Too many witnesses :-D

What do you mean?

I think he means that the left would love for solid Christians to quit voting so that they can advance their agendas, such as gay marriage, removing all signs of God from the public square, and so forth

 

[Barbara Allan]

[quote="Barbara Allan":3f32a]

The liberal left would love those with religious beliefs to "jump ship".
Can't just toss 'em overboard. Too many witnesses :-D

What do you mean?

I think he means that the left would love for solid Christians to quit voting so that they can advance their agendas, such as gay marriage, removing all signs of God from the public square, and so forth[/quote:3f32a]

To me "the left" is stuff like Stalin. But as a moderate liberal I would love to see the power of the religious right diminished and it looks like to some extent that is going to occur. When people see their economic status is more important than silliness like gay marriage and worrying about not being able to put a creche on the courthouse lawn, that'll be good. That stuff is just a distraction to trick people into voting against themselves.

 

[cyberjosh]

To me "the left" is stuff like Stalin. But as a moderate liberal I would love to see the power of the religious right diminished and it looks like to some extent that is going to occur. When people see their economic status is more important than silliness like gay marriage and worrying about not being able to put a creche on the courthouse lawn, that'll be good. That stuff is just a distraction to trick people into voting against themselves.

Just out of curiosity, I'm not sure if you are a Christian or not, but you wouldn't happen to have any affinity to John Shelby Spong and his liberal approach to Christianity would you?

 

[Catholic Crusader]

....silliness like gay marriage and worrying about not being able to put a creche on the courthouse lawn....

God has a habit of overturning corrupt empires, usually after they have strayed away from him and turned to abominations, and America is not immune. That "silly" gay marriage issue is an abomination unto God, and the murder of children by abortion causes blood to spill to the ground which cries out to God for vengence. I cannot fathom how any Christian can vote for a political party that supports such crimes against God. And THAT is "The Left" = Democrats.

And before you bring up the war in Iraq: There is a BIG difference between men who volunteer to fight on the field of battle being killed, and innocent babies being ripped from the mother's womb by a vaccum tube. So don't even attempt to make the comparison (if you were thinking of doing so).

 

[Barbara Allan]

the murder of children by abortion causes blood to spill to the ground which cries out to God for vengence.

[/quote]

So, are you going to bomb a clinic?

C: I cannot fathom how any Christian can vote for a political party that supports such crimes against God.

B: Pro-choice people do not "support" abortion; we just don't support criminalizing it.

C: And THAT is "The Left" = Democrats.

B: That wouldn't be accurate on several levels.

C: And before you bring up the war in Iraq: There is a BIG difference between men who volunteer to fight on the field of battle being killed, and innocent babies being ripped from the mother's womb by a vaccum tube. So don't even attempt to make the comparison (if you were thinking of doing so).

B: They are different issues but your characterization lacks understanding of either issue.

 

[cyberjosh]

Though I don't want to turn this into an abortion thread, although Jeremiah wasn't so fond of being alive when he said it he says about God, "He did not kill me before birth, So that my mother would have been my grave, And her womb ever pregnant" (Jeremiah 20:17). Not a very appealing description of dying before birth. Also if Children are the Lord's (especially the first born who was to be dedicated to God) then who are we to deny them birth? "Behold, children are a heritage from the LORD, The fruit of the womb is a reward" (Psalm 127:3).

Also, to be unable to have children is a curse:

"As for Ephraim, their glory will fly away like a bird-- No birth, no pregnancy, and no conception Though they bring up their children, Yet I will bereave them until not a man is left. Yes, woe to them indeed when I depart from them!" (Hosea 9:11-12)

I don't see any liberal interpretation allowed from the Bible. Just my take on it.

~Josh

 

[Catholic Crusader]

So, are you going to bomb a clinic?

Where did that come from? Nowhere in my previous post did I advocate violence.

Pro-choice people do not "support" abortion; we just don't support criminalizing it.

You don't think murder should be criminalized? I thought it already was. Life is sacred, from its beginning to its end. To take the life of an innocent child is murder. Period.

 

[Imagican]

While from a 'secular perspective', the IDEA that we are able to stem the flow of that which continually seems to be 'spiralling DOWN', the reality is that the WORLD is BIGGER than that which follows in Spirit. Those that ARE in control of 'the world' ARE able to twist and bend it to their WILL. So REGARDLESS of the efforts of 'Christians' to stem the flow or MAKE CHANGES, the TRUTH is that 'we CAN'T'.

Christ stated CLEARLY that to LOVE this LIFE is to LOOSE one's very CHANCE at receiving that which has been offered.

In this SAME repsect, IF we insist upon 'taking part' in the rudiments of this world so far as politics and such, how are we to AVOID developing a LOVE for that which we have ALREADY been 'warned against'?

Stove,

Even though this topic has been entered into Bible Study, there can be practically NOTHING offered so far as the TOPIC is concerned LITERALLY. For I don't BELIEVE that those that WROTE what is contained WITHIN the Bible really had MUCH understanding of EVEN the PRINCIPLE behind VOTING. As we can see through the example of 'casting lots' in order to discern WHO would take Judas' place, these, if they had BELIEVED in and PRACTICED the concept of VOTING would SURELY have been JUST as able to choose in this manner as 'casting lots'.

The PROBLEM with THEM 'voting' would have been that it would have been THEIR will and THEIR understanding that they would have been FORCED to rely upon. Even with the AID of the Spirit, they were STILL subseptable to the FLESH and in this respect PRONE to 'make mistakes'. By taking it OUT of 'their control', casting lots placed the decision in the CHANCE that God could exercise HIS will without the influence OF the Flesh. What MOST NOW would consider 'randm chance' or 'LUCK' was NOT so in the hearts of THOSE that had FAITH in the ability of God to procure HIS WILL.

We do NOT have scripture that offers a complete understanding so far as this issue is concerned. So, if we are limited to scripture in the study of it, then there isn't MUCH point in dicussing it to BEGIN with.

But, does ANYONE out there BELIEVE that through VOTING in elected officials that they are ABLE to STOP progression of THIS WORLD. That it is NOT inevitable that 'gays' be ALLOWED to wed. That gun ownership be more and more controlled and limited. That more and more of God be TAKEN out of the society that we live in for the SAKE of a secular World which LITERALLY HATES HIM? Answer these questions and it becomes apparent the futility involved with a BELIEF that those that follow Christ are ABLE to DO anything concerning the SECULAR world. For HE told us to BECOME separate from it for JUST THIS REASON: To focus on THIS WORLD is to be LED AWAY FROM that which matters MOST........................... I'll LEAVE the answer to that up to those that read this post.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Barbara Allan]

Catholic Crusader: Where did that come from? Nowhere in my previous post did I advocate violence.

B: You did say it "cries out for vengeance". So what are you going to do about it?

C: You don't think murder should be criminalized? I thought it already was. Life is sacred, from its beginning to its end. To take the life of an innocent child is murder. Period.

B: Not in a country which respects freedom. The "abortion is murder" cry is meaningless rhetoric with no basis in law.

 

[Barbara Allan]

To me "the left" is stuff like Stalin. But as a moderate liberal I would love to see the power of the religious right diminished and it looks like to some extent that is going to occur. When people see their economic status is more important than silliness like gay marriage and worrying about not being able to put a creche on the courthouse lawn, that'll be good. That stuff is just a distraction to trick people into voting against themselves.

Just out of curiosity, I'm not sure if you are a Christian or not, but you wouldn't happen to have any affinity to John Shelby Spong and his liberal approach to Christianity would you?

How would you define that? Are you going to damn me if I say yes? Why don't you say what you are and ask again with respect and I'll consider answering.