Bible Study Should A Christian Vote?

[Catholic Crusader]

You did say it "cries out for vengeance". So what are you going to do about it?

"Vengence is mine saith the Lord". God will handle it, not me, and woe to them that had a hand in it directly or indirectly.

Not in a country which respects freedom. The "abortion is murder" cry is meaningless rhetoric with no basis in law.

It has basis in God's law. Any law which contradicts God's law and legalizes immoral acts is not authentic law.

I would also remind you that the people did not vote for Roe v. Wade. It was imposed on us by a leftist Supreme Court. Abortion was always illegal until that late 60's court decision. Guess what: The Supreme Court said that slavery was legal for years, and they were wrong. Now they say abortion is legal, and they are wrong.

Abortion is murder. Period. If you think it is good law that babies can be sucked through a vacuum tube and thrown in a trash can, then you need to seriously re-evaluate your values.

 

[Barbara Allan]

"Catholic Crusader""Vengence is mine saith the Lord".

B: Okay, whatever.

C: I would also remind you that the people did not vote for Roe v. Wade. It was imposed on us by a leftist Supreme Court.

B: Actually the 7-2 majority in Roe included several conservative justices. The author of the decision, Associate Justice Harry Blackmun, was a conservative appointed by President Nixon.

C: Abortion was always illegal until that late 60's court decision.

B: Wrong: abortion was illegal for approximately 100 years but doctors had discretion to perform them when they determined they were needed. The decision in Roe came in 1973 after about 1/3 of the states had removed restrictions from abortion, including California, whose liberalized policy was instituted by then Governor Ronald Reagan. The illegality of abortion for that brief period had nothing to do with the concept a fetus is a person as that has always been an opinion of a small minority. The laws were only instituted to protect women from unsafe providers.

C: Guess what: The Supreme Court said that slavery was legal for years, and they were wrong. Now they say abortion is legal, and they are wrong.

B: That's your opinion but your minor premise does not support your major premise.

C: Abortion is murder. Period.

B: This is your opinion, and the opinion of the oligarch whose picture your posts support. I disagree with both you and Ratzy. So it goes.

C: If you think it is good law that babies can be sucked through a vacuum tube and thrown in a trash can, then you need to seriously re-evaluate your values.

B: Considering the results of childbirth in other circumstances it is inconguent to oppose abortion and align oneself politically with opponents of social injustice. In the meantime safe and legal abortion is the best policy for a free society. If you don't believe in abortion don't have one. Case closed. My values are just fine, thank you. It is you who need to reevaluate yours as yours actively oppress women and as such will not be permitted to prevail by free people.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Its amazing what mind-gymnastics a person will go through to have the right to destroy life. Is it that important to you that we should be allowed to kill children in the very place which should be the safest place in the world for them, their mother's womb? I never cease to be horrified that civilized people can justify such an abomination.

And your flippant "whatever" comment to my scripture quote is evidence to me that you are no Christian, so I wonder what your agenda is here. You will surely win no friends by supporting infanticide

 

[cyberjosh]

CC,

Was that picture really necessary? A guy has to keep his dinner you know.

 

[cyberjosh]

[quote="Barbara Allan":e4668]
To me "the left" is stuff like Stalin. But as a moderate liberal I would love to see the power of the religious right diminished and it looks like to some extent that is going to occur. When people see their economic status is more important than silliness like gay marriage and worrying about not being able to put a creche on the courthouse lawn, that'll be good. That stuff is just a distraction to trick people into voting against themselves.

Just out of curiosity, I'm not sure if you are a Christian or not, but you wouldn't happen to have any affinity to John Shelby Spong and his liberal approach to Christianity would you?

How would you define that? Are you going to damn me if I say yes? Why don't you say what you are and ask again with respect and I'll consider answering.[/quote:e4668]

I am a Christian and I also take the Bible very seriously, and unlike John Spong I believe in literal inspiration of the Bible, not an allegorical or "principals-only" approach. John Spong said he lost his faith in the literalness of the Bible because of some silly atheistic professor of his. So much for rock-solid faith and perseverance.

Besides it was only a question, you could have just as well denied it and gone along your way or clarified your position by perhaps saying you were similar in belief to him. Don't worry I'm used to discoursing with people who have different views than I, however it helps me when I know a person's position so that I can make stronger points in the appropriate areas on any particular topic.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Barbara Allan]

CC,

Was that picture really necessary? A guy has to keep his dinner you know.

Extremism demands your nausea.

 

[Barbara Allan]

I am a Christian and I also take the Bible very seriously, and unlike John Spong I believe in literal inspiration of the Bible, not an allegorical or "principals-only" approach. John Spong said he lost his faith in the literalness of the Bible because of some silly atheistic professor of his. So much for rock-solid faith and perseverance.

Besides it was only a question, you could have just as well denied it and gone along your way or clarified your position by perhaps saying you were similar in belief to him. Don't worry I'm used to discoursing with people who have different views than I, however it helps me when I know a person's position so that I can make stronger points in the appropriate areas on any particular topic.

God Bless,

~Josh

When you put it like that, I don't mind answering. It was just seeming to be very high-handed when first stated. I'm an Episcopal like Spong. I've read most of his books. I agree with his politics but not his cosmology. I think his work for civil rights is to be commended. I consider his extremism on such issues as rejecting the Ascension of Christ as a counterpoint to the fundamentalists but not anything I agree with.

 

[stovebolts]

A friendly reminder of our TOS

5 - Respect each other's opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities.

6 - No Bashing of other members. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself

Let's get back on topic. Should A Christian Vote? :wink:

 

[Imagican]

Your post has been moved by Stovebolts to Here
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[Barbara Allan]

Your post has been moved by Stovebolts to Here
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[Catholic Crusader]

CC,

Was that picture really necessary? A guy has to keep his dinner you know.

I saw a history show once about child labor in the early 20th century. What really woke up congress finally was when a man (I forget his name) brought large photos to a congressional hearing showing children chained to machinery. (Big photos are common in hearings today, but that was a new tactic at that time.) It was the visual effect that changed the minds of many congressmen and helped pass child labor laws.

In our own time, nobody thought about racial seperation too seriously until we saw TV images of blacks being hosed down by southern white cops. Then we could see what we had only heard about before.

Yes, that picture was neccessary. The left likes to use verbal trickery: Calling a baby a "zygote" or a "fetus" - anything that will de-humanize it and make it easy to kill, just as the Nazis de-humanized Jews and made them easier to kill. That picture is a cold reminder that what we are killing and throwing into trash cans are little people who have the same right to life as we do.\

Extremism demands your nausea.

How sad. I want to save children's lives, and you call that extreme. You want to toss children into trash cans, and you call that good law. What evil has been wrought in our nation that intelligent people have come to such horrid conclusions.

 

[gila]

Sorry for interrupting. I am new here and thought this is an interesting topic. I would like to put in my two cents worth.

Jesus says that His followers are not of this world. We have responsibility to pay the taxes and obey thier laws if they are not out of line with God's laws. But the government is this world's institution. Let the world decide what to do with their government. Jesus' people should not get involved with the world's affairs. ie voting.

g

 

[Vic C.]

Hi gila and welcome to the site!

Question (rhetorical or otherwise):

What recourse does one have if one finds their taxes are unfair or if they deem a law is unjust? True, we are not of this world, but we are surely in it.

 

[Vic C.]

One more thing, this thread IS NOT for debating the legalities and ethics of abortion. Please stick to the topic.

Thnaks.

 

[gila]

Hi gila and welcome to the site!

thanks :D

What recourse does one have if one finds their taxes are unfair or if they deem a law is unjust?

Christians have no right to insist God's laws because this world is controlled by satan. The governments are part of satan's world.

True, we are not of this world, but we are surely in it.

Of course we are in it. But they cannot force us to do anything if we don't want to; just because it is legal to abort babies doesn't mean I have to.

 

[Vic C.]

[quote:ad392]What recourse does one have if one finds their taxes are unfair or if they deem a law is unjust?

Christians have no right to insist God's laws because this world is controlled by satan. The governments are part of satan's world. [/quote:ad392]
Who instituted governments and who has sovereign power over all, including Satan?

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Look at the brutality of God's people in nations where these people have no say, or are even considered second class beings.

Christians do have a right to suggest their moral laws be considered. We have a right to raise our children as we see fit, including educating them. If a Christian has no right in this area, than we risk losing all that and our ability to worship our God. We also have an obligation to abide by the laws of our country. We do make for very responsible citizens and should reflect our moralities upon the land, praying we have a positive influence in an unbelieving world.

We have a right to oppose unfair laws and taxes and an obligation to vote. Forfeit your rights and privileges and you lose far more than you bargained for; you could lose the ability to effectively witness for God. The law work for us, not against us.

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

[quote:ad392] True, we are not of this world, but we are surely in it.

Of course we are in it. But they cannot force us to do anything if we don't want to; just because it is legal to abort babies doesn't mean I have to.[/quote:ad392]
Of course not and as a conservative Christian, I wouldn't suggest anyone get an abortion.

Let me ask you something, what are your feelings about eminent domain? Do you know it is a law giving government the right to seize your property if they deem it a higher value for the community if it is used for something other than your home? Like public housing, a school, or even a highway! You may not want to give it up, but in most cases, they CAN force you. If you don't vote, your signature on petitions mean nothing, your voice at public meeting mean little also.

http://www.expertlaw.com/library/real_e ... omain.html

When I was young, I was a real rebel, a radical, an outsider. We thought we could change the world. Guess what? We've learned it's much easier to change the world from the inside. Now that I am a believer, a born again believer, I can help change the world by spreading the Gospel... from the inside. ;-)

 

[gila]

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

That's why we pay taxes and obey the laws if it is in line with God's.

Look at the brutality of God's people in nations where these people have no say, or are even considered second class beings.

Jesus says to "let the dead bury their own dead." Paul never advocated Christians becoming politicians, and He lived in ROME. Rome killed Christians. And Paul never said anything about trying to change that government. It's not our responsibility, and it will only result in us compromising our beliefs.
That's politics.

Christians do have a right to suggest their moral laws be considered.

Everyone has right to practice anything if it is not illegal, but Jesus' followers are not of this world. Jesus gives His people their own responsibilities as His servants.

We have a right to raise our children as we see fit, including educating them.

I am raising kids following Jesus teachings and I dont need secular laws to do it. Jesus' teachings are much, much better than secular's.

praying we have a positive influence in an unbelieving world.

Jesus' people are everywhere. They follow Jesus without the secular world's support. They are even more poweful in persecuted areas. Jesus' followers are powerful under oppression.

Let me ask you something, what are your feelings about eminent domain? Do you know it is a law giving government the right to seize your property if they deem it a higher value for the community if it is used for something other than your home? Like public housing, a school, or even a highway! You may not want to give it up, but in most cases, they CAN force you. If you don't vote, your signature on petitions mean nothing, your voice at public meeting mean little also.

Well if it is the law, I will obey. I will not fight. God provides.

I can help change the world by spreading the Gospel... from the inside. ;-)

Jesus' followers have the responsibility to spread the Gospel and that's all He is asking us to do. Jesus is not for everyone. He is for people who are seeking the Truth. We cannot not force anyone.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Of course Christians must vote. If we don't, the people who don't have Christian values will be making all the decisions.

 

[gila]

Of course Christians must vote. If we don't, the people who don't have Christian values will be making all the decisions.

I hope your reread all my replys to vic.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Of course Christians must vote. If we don't, the people who don't have Christian values will be making all the decisions.

I hope your reread all my replys to vic.

I would appreciate it if you did not address me directly anymore. Your false charges and insults about Catholics were the end of our communication