Cornelius said:
francisdesales said:
Paul doesn't say we NOW have the fullness of Christ. He says UNTIL we measure the stature of the fulness of Christ. I would venture to say very few of us here MEASURE TO THE STATURE of Christ, brother...
Do you know the reason for this immaturity in the church and what you call "Church" ? Paul tells us the reason. Can you see it? Just a verse or so back.
The point is that NOW, we are not "mature" and "know" the entire fullness of the Gospel, nor do we measure to the stature of Christ. You imply we magically are. According to you, "we" are infused with some sort of divine knowledge upon our baptism that enables us to ignore the need of teachers, moral or doctrinal, despite the constant proof of the contrary by the very EXISTENCE of the Scriptures!
I realize my shortcomings and my need for preachers and teachers to constantly exhort and correct me.
So did the first Christians, otherwise, they never would have accepted the authority of the Apostles, since authority depends upon being ACCEPTED, as well as being sent. Apparently, in the 21st century, one can just be a Scriptural scholar to know everything and actually apply it in one's life...
Cornelius said:
I have never said there are more than one truth. There is only one.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life:
There is only one truth - but what happens to your theory when several claim to have the TOTAL access to the truth, and yet disagree? I find this inability to see such a contradiction a bit strange...
Cornelius said:
You actually think that I am isolated ? The Bible clearly tells us not to stop coming together and I listen to the Word.
I also have the five fold ministry that looks after me and they look after each other.We are many and we are everywhere. We are the Body of Christ.
I am sure the opponents of Paul and Peter said the same thing...
Yes, you are part of the Body of Christ - if I take your word for it - but you only possess part of the Truth that God has given. Some of your theology is mistaken, some of your teachings are wrong. That doesn't mean you are not part of the Body, it means that you do not possess the fullness of the Truth that God has given for us (of the Body) to know. God desires that we come to the knowledge of the Truth. When truth is REVEALED, man's reason cannot come to it alone. Thus, God has passed down this knowledge to a particular group of men, who have passed it along, generation to generation. This includes interpretation of Scriptures.
Cornelius said:
francisdesales said:
Again, you twist the words of Scriptures. Paul is among the first churchmen... Did he or did he not establish common churches with the SAME beliefs all over the Mediterranean vicinity? Did he not preach with authority, and establish authority among junior teachers of the faith, charging other Christians to heed and obey them? I presume you have read the Pastorals...
Of course he did.
but never told us to be taught by the church. We have to build on the foundations of the apostles.........only. The teachers (one of the five fold ministry must teach ! )
The Church, teachers, preachers, etc, are those sent. The teachers are sent by those who have gone before them - thus "apostles". Sent. Thus, people are taught by the Church, those sent by Christ, who sent the Apostles, who sent successors. I do not find the Scriptures discussing people picking up a bible and sending themselves... or better yet, picking up a bible and claiming they have total access to all God's truths...
Cornelius said:
francisdesales said:
I don't have a problem holding fast to the word given to the Apostles and still taught in the Church established by Christ, where His Spirit guides to all truth... Or did the Spirit leave the Church, which existed long before the Reformation??? Can you point me to the Scriptures that tell me that the Spirit left the Church to start up another one???
Exactly and some actually belief they have a monopoly on it. The church is still the church as it was in the time of Paul.
Who thinks they have a monopoly on the teachings of the Apostles??? The Church's mission is to SPREAD the Gospel, not hold it as a secret and "monopolizing" it. The Church teaches the fullness, but that doesn't mean that other communities do not have some truth. That admittance speaks nowhere of a "monopoly"...
Cornelius said:
francisdesales said:
The Apostles and their successors provide the teaching of the Church... Such as the teaching of the Eucharist.
Lets not go there.
The point remains, whether we go there or not. We differ on the Biblical meaning of the Eucharist. Thus, one or both of us does not have the truth... Historical evidence will clearly note who is teaching innovation.
Cornelius said:
francisdesales said:
You are not in line with the Scriptures since you choose not to follow the successors who continue to teach the correct understanding of the Scriptures.
That would be your view of course. Its the same view held by Jehovahs Witnesses. And the Baptist and the Pentecostals and the Hindus and the Buddhists. All groups believe the others are wrong, therefor they are groups, which is the Greek word for heresies.(sects, denominations) all who have a name that separate themselves from the other, are part of it.
I don't think you or anyone else is completely wrong. I believe one can find MORE of God's truth in the Church, but that doesn't mean JV's or Baptists are all wrong. Even Buddhists have some of God's truth that He places within all men.
Cornelius said:
I want you to point our the scripture to me, that says that people are Christians even when they believe Jesus is an angel.
Who is Paul writing to in Hebrews? Followers of Mithra? I take it you have read Hebrews? He is clearly writing to people who have ALREADY been BAPTIZED and are indeed followers and believers in Christ. Is it your contention that Paul is writing to non-Christians? Is that your belief???
I hadn't intended to do such a study on something that is quite obvious to anyone reading Hebrews, but I will point out the pertinent passages so that you may ask the Holy Spirit to enlighten you, presuming He is indeed within you...
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Hebrews 1:1-4
Paul then goes on to teach these "us" Christians that their belief that Christ was akin to an angel is wrong. Now, think for a minute - this is in the very early stages of Christianity, and many converts from Judaism still had ideas about angels. Isn't it feasible for someone, with a Jewish background, to think of Christ as an angel, a messenger from God (which He was) - rather than God HIMSELF in the form of man??? And so these people, who had already been taught the Way, had a mistaken idea of Christ's identity.
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him]; God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. Hebrews 2:3-5
Paul states, again, the WE. How shall WE escape, if we neglect so great salvation. Doesn't such verses make it obvious that Paul and the audience are fellow believers, not Judaizers or Gnostics? He is speaking to saved Christians who were mistaken on doctrine...
He continues, including his audience as part of the saved members of the People of God...
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Hebrews 3:1
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; Hebrews 3:12-14
He continues...
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it]. Hebrews 4:1-2
And then, with the verses I have already mentioned...
Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which [be] the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk [is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, [even] those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Hebrews 5:12-14
It seems rather obvious Paul is speaking to fellow believers who are having a difficult time with what has been passed down... They do not possess the fullness of the truth - they continue to hold onto false teachings that they had assumed from their Jewish background, that Jesus was an angel.
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Hebrews 6:1-2
Do I need to continue??? Who but the obstinate would refuse to admit that Paul is speaking to Christians who have already been taught the Gospel and already have been baptized and enlightened - but were lacking in some of what they held to?
Cornelius said:
I agree with Paul. Nothing has changed. The whole church (and I use that term loosely ), in fact is far more immature today, then in his day.
I do not think you agree with Paul, but your idea of what Paul writes. The Church is immature for many reasons, among part of which is that people refuse to hear the pillar and foundation of the Truth.
Cornelius said:
Its not Scriptural, God ALWAYS calls His people OUT of error. Never are we told to stay inside. What you call Church has long time ago forgotten the meaning of that word. So has the rest of "church" Today its about men and what they think and decide.
You are presuming that the Church is in error, and thus, we must "come out". That would also show an incredible lack of trust in the promise of Christ, who promised to send His Spirit and lead the Church to all truth. Can you point to WHERE the Scriptures lead us to believe that the Spirit has LEFT the Church and there is a "need" to "come out"? This is all based upon the idea that the Church does not agree with YOU, and thus, the CHURCH is wrong, and you must "come out", since you are infallible...
is the promise given to the Church or the individual?
Cornelius said:
Its always come out ! Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:
Come out of sinfulness, not out of the Church... This is just another example of very poor exegesis... WHY would John write to "come out of the Church" when HE HIMSELF was teaching and writing letters to hold onto the Truth given by the Church???
Cornelius said:
I have been looking for reality in God for thirty years. I only found religion until God called me out.
This is very confusing to me, since the Bible speaks highly of "religion". I suppose it is your "search for perfection". A person looking for perfection here on this earth will not find it in an institution. Thus, he must turn inward - and being that the individual is very conceited and often blind to his own errors, believes he has "found" God in himself and thus puts aside any "religion". Well, I can empathize with your desire that the Church becomes perfected now. However, the Scriptures do not hold the Church up as a model of perfection until the end of time.
James tells us about pure religion - it is found in action. And the Church is quite active in serving the unfortunate in this world. In addition, the bible tells us that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. Paul was not saying that the individual is the pillar, but the Church as an organization. An organization has been given the power to bind and loosen, and so forth. Thus, I am highly suspect of the "God called me out of religion" scheme. We don't see this model in Scriptures.
Regards
.....