Should Churches have armed forces?

[NooneSpecial]

Did u read my post about what happened to my truck during a church service? That was done in broad day light. The pastor of that church said that not all people who go to church are saved. It was making a point and i didn't mean to insult you, the way you came across to me made me think that u were a little naive. I believe in security guards only if its necessary.

Naive? Why? Because my view is differing from your own? That seems hardly a reason to insinuate something like that. Daylight or darkness, how does one man's bringing in a weapon to God's house justify members of the congregation or others doing likewise?

Did Jesus, Himself not rebuke Peter for slicing off the ear of one of the very same men who came to arrest Him? If Jesus felt that way then about violence when it came to living a life of ministry and in accordance to ministry what is to make one believe that guns or any form of arms within the church is acceptable?

Do not expect you to agree with me. Nor do I have any wish to further argue or discuss this topic seeing as it has already taken such a dark turn towards name calling.

 

[WiLdAtHeArT]

One passage. This is the only one you will find that even remotely supports that position. Even then, I am not at all certain that using this passage can be sustained.

Convenient how you dismiss the argument off-hand without explaining why it doesn't apply...

I pray your belief doesn't work against you and that your friends and family aren't ever harmed by evil people.

My belief? My faith.

Semantics. Is that the only thing you find wrong with my statement?

And Free, I can't resist this sarcastic remark: I hope God doesn't kill a few people to deal with your sin.

No, but he might kill me.

You asked how would we know that God isn't using the evil of others to deal with sin in the church. You did not specifically mention that God would only kill those who are sinning. And the blatant judgement coming from you on this is staggering. You're suggesting that Rachael and Stephanie Works, who were the girls killed by the gunman in my church were picked off by God for their sin. As if they were the only ones in the church sinning to such a degree that they needed to be murdered. Do all who sin deserve death? Yes! Death is the penalty for sin. All sin. Therefore we are all sentenced to die. But those who put their trust in Christ for His atoning sacrifice are set free from sin and death and will live forever. To continue your logic, all Christians should be gathered up and murdered so that our sin condition can be fixed.

Are you sure the main goal of Christians is to get to heaven? I think heaven is the reward, not the goal.

As I stated: "one of the main teachings in the North American church is that one should be come a Christian so that they go to heaven when they die."

That is what is preached. Listen to any alter call and the one thing they all ask is "If you were to die tonight, where would you go?" It was just an observation--this fear of dying seems to be rampant among Christians.

So you are knowingly basing your argument on a flawed belief in the church? Why exactly are you making the argument then?

If it weren't for the armed security guard at New Life Church in Colorado Springs, CO (my church until recently), there would have been possibly hundreds dead from the shooter a year and a half ago.

I am FOR armed security. :armed

Why not gun control?

So then the criminals will be the only ones with access to guns, leaving those who abide by the law defenseless to protect themselves.

faith doesn't replace good common sense

And giving people easy access to guns is common sense?

Did u read my post about what happened to my truck during a church service? That was done in broad day light.

It was just a truck.

Not your truck. So why would you care?

 

[Free]

Convenient how you dismiss the argument off-hand without explaining why it doesn't apply...

I never dismissed it. I stated: "I am not at all certain". This is Jesus talking to the disciples at a specific time when they were going to be disbanded. I am not convinced that one comment of Jesus to his disciples can be turned into a blanket statement that it is okay to have weapons for self-defense. Especially since 1) the first time he sends them out he tells them not to take anything, 2) he first says "he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one" but when the disciples say they have two swords, he says that is enough, and 3) it seems to go against most everything else he says.

Semantics. Is that the only thing you find wrong with my statement?

It wasn't semantics. I stated that for a reason--it's about having faith that God will protect me and my loved ones.

You asked how would we know that God isn't using the evil of others to deal with sin in the church. You did not specifically mention that God would only kill those who are sinning. And the blatant judgement coming from you on this is staggering. You're suggesting that Rachael and Stephanie Works, who were the girls killed by the gunman in my church were picked off by God for their sin. As if they were the only ones in the church sinning to such a degree that they needed to be murdered. Do all who sin deserve death? Yes! Death is the penalty for sin. All sin. Therefore we are all sentenced to die. But those who put their trust in Christ for His atoning sacrifice are set free from sin and death and will live forever. To continue your logic, all Christians should be gathered up and murdered so that our sin condition can be fixed.

Don't go too far with this, it was just a question to get everyone to think a little deeper and consider that not everything is at is appears. Look at the OT and how many times God used other nations or sickness to bring judgment down on the Israelites. Some have suggested that certain recent natural disasters were God's judgment against certain nations. Maybe, maybe not. In some cases gunmen might be God's judgment and other times just an act of evil.

But, no, it is not a continuation of my logic to say that "all Christians should be gathered up and murdered so that our sin condition can be fixed." But I will say that I think the Church in North America as a whole has strayed too far in many regards and the actual number of Christians is a fraction of those who claim to be one.

So you are knowingly basing your argument on a flawed belief in the church? Why exactly are you making the argument then?

My point was that the desire for armed guards, or rather self-preservation, seems to contradict the desire to go to heaven. I wasn't really going anywhere with it.

So then the criminals will be the only ones with access to guns, leaving those who abide by the law defenseless to protect themselves.

Well, in regards to Christians, which is the point of this thread, I would rhetorically ask: Are we really defenseless?

Not your truck. So why would you care?

Not what I said. My point is that it is a worldly thing "where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal." Sure, I would be mad too, but in the end, it's just a thing and it doesn't justify having armed guards at church. In light of eternity, what is a scratched truck? What is a truck?

 

[WiLdAtHeArT]

Thanks for the civilized debate, Free. I put some words into your mouth in my last post to make my point, so for that I apologise. I can see your point of view and it does have merit. Perhaps I put a bit too much faith in worldly self-preservation or protection, and not enough on God's. For now, I guess I'll wander somewhere between each extreme.

 

[Free]

Thanks for the civilized debate, Free. I put some words into your mouth in my last post to make my point, so for that I apologise. I can see your point of view and it does have merit. Perhaps I put a bit too much faith in worldly self-preservation or protection, and not enough on God's. For now, I guess I'll wander somewhere between each extreme.

No need to apologize. Sometimes I make a point without thinking it through thoroughly and you called me on it. I need to be a little more careful in the points I make, especially ones where it touches on the personal (I've never been anywhere, much less a church, when someone with a gun comes in). And to be honest, I'm still trying to figure out where self-defense fits into the scheme of things and how far we, as Christians, ought to take it. Not to be graphic but if I came across a guy doing something to a woman (never mind my wife) that he shouldn't be doing and she is screaming for help, I would not stand by idly.

On the one hand I have faith that God will protect us and that we need to utterly rely on him. On the other hand, maybe that protection does come in various forms through us and others. :dunno What I do know is that we need to really understand what it means to be a Christian and how that plays out in society. I think that is where the church has really missed it. But I'm still trying to figure that out too.

 

[jasoncran]

Did u read my post about what happened to my truck during a church service? That was done in broad day light. The pastor of that church said that not all people who go to church are saved. It was making a point and i didn't mean to insult you, the way you came across to me made me think that u were a little naive. I believe in security guards only if its necessary.

Naive? Why? Because my view is differing from your own? That seems hardly a reason to insinuate something like that. Daylight or darkness, how does one man's bringing in a weapon to God's house justify members of the congregation or others doing likewise?

Did Jesus, Himself not rebuke Peter for slicing off the ear of one of the very same men who came to arrest Him? If Jesus felt that way then about violence when it came to living a life of ministry and in accordance to ministry what is to make one believe that guns or any form of arms within the church is acceptable?

Do not expect you to agree with me. Nor do I have any wish to further argue or discuss this topic seeing as it has already taken such a dark turn towards name calling.

i'm sorry to be a part of that, but in a related note on the battlefield soldiers carry guns into the makeshift chapel. The enemy has fired at us while in chapel service, so how's that any different.? I'm not afraid of death but lets be real if i pointed a gun at you would any of us have any fear if the lord didn't give us strength. I see the nay's point though.

 

[jasoncran]

Just one? Here's an entire passage: 1 Samuel 17:1-51

No. That does not at all support that position.

What are your thoughts on this passage? (I believe we discussed this in another thread):

Luke 22:31-38

31And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

33And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

34And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

35And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.

36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

38And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

One passage. This is the only one you will find that even remotely supports that position. Even then, I am not at all certain that using this passage can be sustained.

I pray your belief doesn't work against you and that your friends and family aren't ever harmed by evil people.

My belief? My faith.

And Free, I can't resist this sarcastic remark: I hope God doesn't kill a few people to deal with your sin.

No, but he might kill me.

Are you sure the main goal of Christians is to get to heaven? I think heaven is the reward, not the goal.

As I stated: "one of the main teachings in the North American church is that one should be come a Christian so that they go to heaven when they die."

That is what is preached. Listen to any alter call and the one thing they all ask is "If you were to die tonight, where would you go?" It was just an observation--this fear of dying seems to be rampant among Christians.

If it weren't for the armed security guard at New Life Church in Colorado Springs, CO (my church until recently), there would have been possibly hundreds dead from the shooter a year and a half ago.

I am FOR armed security. :armed

Why not gun control?

faith doesn't replace good common sense

And giving people easy access to guns is common sense?

Did u read my post about what happened to my truck during a church service? That was done in broad day light.

It was just a truck.

True it was a truck, but should we allow crime to occur, turn the other cheeck is a good idea, but if a gun man was to enter the church a to aim at you would you jump to take the bullet for your family, or another, how about we avoid the situation all together, with the protection, In most states a security class d license is required, and also law enforcement can be asked(paid) to do the detail, don't most churches lock up after service? yes, i understand the nay's but i see the other way as some churches are in bad neighborhoods.