Should every Christian be a Pacifist?

[Chopper]

My Son in law, is a pacifist. My Son is not. Considering the Old Testament and the New Testament. What should the Christian of today do in regard to a "home evasion".

 

[jasonc]

My Son in law, is a pacifist. My Son is not. Considering the Old Testament and the New Testament. What should the Christian of today do in regard to a "home evasion".

I am not but I will say that im not as assertive as I should be at times.i have been in fights and train for such but I also while I get heated with the arguments it a sin for a Christian to be pro gun and serve. I also have understood what war and death has done to me and that I can respect those who choose not to carry or serve. and I will not at present purchase a gun yet I remain pro gun.

 

[reba]

I would like to think if a bad guy was slapping me/family around because i claim Jesus as my Saviour i could turn the other cheek..... If a bad guy is thief murderer rapist general bad guy i could shoot him on the spot... Come after one of my grandchildren, he would have to fight one protective grandma..

I believe physical protection falls under this verse...
1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
This verse does not stand alone... We have a Bible full of history...

Luk_22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

Mat_26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

The Staff of the shepherd was to guide/ direct the sheep, the rod of iron was for the protection of the sheep..

 

[jasonc]

I agree but at times war is grey. I will say what I think about crimea and my going to it. while I understand the need if we did go but like nam and korea it will be. we may die for a land that didn't want us there, or as Nixon did under pressure just let the commies have it. korea was a war that we didn't want to get into but was forced under un pressure to do so. while the south loves us and we also had a presence there when we ended ww2 but we also felt that korea should have stand on its own. now that s korea is able to do so they should but to simply leave with a truce in place isn't wise and I don't think n.korea would be honest and upfront with not trying to attack s korea. if they showed no interest in the south and they haven't then we could end the war officially. they aren't willing to end the truce but they do tgeest us. with the crimea. the ethnic Russians seems to forget what the ussr was like. but if we go there its taking a side in another nations civil war and well wasn't korea that and nam?

 

[Jamsie]

Chopper - My Son in law, is a pacifist. My Son is not. Considering the Old Testament and the New Testament. What should the Christian of today do in regard to a "home evasion".

I recall a story concerning my pastor, many years ago, who was asked by a person "If I hit you aren't you required to turn the other cheek?". Pastor D simply replied that one shouldn't take a verse out of context and holding up his fist retorted "The Bible also states "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might". (of course he was about 6'4" 250lb.- college football ) As for pacifism in general I often think of Dietrich Bonhoeffer... I think a home invasion is quite a different story.

 

[jasonc]

Chopper - My Son in law, is a pacifist. My Son is not. Considering the Old Testament and the New Testament. What should the Christian of today do in regard to a "home evasion".

I recall a story concerning my pastor, many years ago, who was asked by a person "If I hit you aren't you required to turn the other cheek?". Pastor D simply replied that one shouldn't take a verse out of context and holding up his fist retorted "The Bible also states "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might". (of course he was about 6'4" 250lb.- college football ) As for pacifism in general I often think of Dietrich Bonhoeffer... I think a home invasion is quite a different story.

bohoeffer plotted to kill hitler via bombing his meeting, hardly a pacifist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer

 

[reba]

home evasion

been there.... Very thankful my husband did not have to kill anyone.... but our kids were at grandmas house had they not been someone most likely would have died..

 

[Jamsie]

jasonc - bohoeffer plotted to kill hitler via bombing his meeting, hardly a pacifist.

Unless one has read of Bonhoeffer's decision they shouldn't comment on how it relates to pacifism. A great figure of the twentieth century who confronted a moral dilemma with courage and intelligence.

 

[Deborah13]

jasonc - bohoeffer plotted to kill hitler via bombing his meeting, hardly a pacifist.

Unless one has read of Bonhoeffer's decision they shouldn't comment on how it relates to pacifism. A great figure of the twentieth century who confronted a moral dilemma with courage and intelligence.

So maybe your differences here is semantics. What is your definition of 'pacifist' compared to say jason's or mine.
I'll about bet yours and mine are similar but I don't know that. Then again, mine might be more like jason's?

 

[jasonc]

fighting isn't just with violence. I hope realize that argue isn't exactly peaceful. he also wasn't a pacifist . many a pacifist did die in ww2. those were these.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptist
they didn't fight even when the Nazi killed them in their towns.

and their cousins the hutterites. he wasn't a hutterite nor Anabaptism. if im mistaken you appeared to say that bonheofer was a pacifist. I know that he wasn't .but was the treatment of pacifists that refuse to serve wrong? should we force them? no I don't. each man must live with watching a man die by his hands. like it or not at times you will dream and ponder of that moment. I haven't but I know vets that have done just that. I refuse to force a man to cant in his mind kill another. he must of his own will fight. why do I say that? because I have been there and I had to deal with that delimma from another sgt who couldn't take a life. so unless I hear otherwise he was sent home and discharged. I remember having that conversation while in country. perhaps the army said go and we don't need you and he went to another unit and finished his time. I dk. but have seen those in the army. that is why I don't recruit troops without asking them would take a life? would you kill a man while is taking a shower and he is known to be the enemy( that is fact from the move the enemy of the gates, and its lawful to such in the laws of war) or to shoot an escaping detainee, or a kid with the intent to harm you or others with a gun or a bomb strapped his person.

 

[Sinthesis]

I'm not a pacifist, but I feel a responsibility to protect those that are.

 

[Jamsie]

Deborah13 -So maybe your differences here is semantics. What is your definition of 'pacifist' compared to say jason's or mine.

I imagine our definitions are the same. Notice what I wrote.."As for pacifism in general I often think of Dietrich Bonhoeffer..". In general Bonhoeffer embraced a pacifist view but at a point confronted with Hitler (one should remember that he was one of the earliest to raise an alarm about Hitler) one can imagine (or not) the moral dilemma he encountered. An excerpt from the early 1930's - "Battles are won, not with weapons, but with God. They are won where the way leads to the Cross. Which of us can say he knows what it might mean for the world if one nation should meet the aggressor, not with weapons in hand, but praying, defenseless, and for that very reason protected by “a bulwark never failing.” One might conclude that he was never involved in the actual killing...but Bonhoeffer would not have denied his complicity. How would an avowed Pacifist confront such a moral dilemma?

 

[Deborah13]

I'm not a pacifist, but I feel a responsibility to protect those that are.

Hm..I hadn't thought of that before. But that is an easy one for me. I agree with you. I would do that, too.

 

[Butch5]

My Son in law, is a pacifist. My Son is not. Considering the Old Testament and the New Testament. What should the Christian of today do in regard to a "home evasion".

This topic usually ends up closed. I believe the NT is quite clear on this topic, the Christian is not to use violence. The earliest Christians did not allow the use of violence at all.

 

[Deborah13]

This topic usually ends up closed. I believe the NT is quite clear on this topic, the Christian is not to use violence. The earliest Christians did not allow the use of violence at all.

Why did Jesus tell the Apostles, I think it was, to go buy swords? Do you think He didn't really mean physical swords, even though we know Peter carried one?

 

[Butch5]

Why did Jesus tell the Apostles, I think it was, to go buy swords? Do you think He didn't really mean physical swords, even though we know Peter carried one?

HI Deb,

I can think of quite a few reasons other than defense. The Greek word that is used in that passage is actually a large knife/small sword. They were being sent out into the world there would be plenty of need for a knife in everyday use. They had to kill and prepare food, they may have to defend themselves from wild animals etc.

3162 μάχαιρα machaira {makh'-ahee-rah}

Meaning: 1) a large knife, used for killing animals and cutting up flesh 2) a small sword, as distinguished from a large sword 2a) curved sword, for a cutting stroke 2b) a straight sword, for thrusting

If you remember, the first time Jesus sent out the apostles He told them to take nothing with them. They were going to their brethren the Jews and it was expected that their needs would be met by the people they visited. However, this time they were being sent out into the world and they need to fend for themselves regarding their necessities.

 

[Deborah13]

HI Deb,

I can think of quite a few reasons other than defense. The Greek word that is used in that passage is actually a large knife/small sword. They were being sent out into the world there would be plenty of need for a knife in everyday use. They had to kill and prepare food, they may have to defend themselves from wild animals etc.

3162 μάχαιρα machaira {makh'-ahee-rah}

Meaning: 1) a large knife, used for killing animals and cutting up flesh 2) a small sword, as distinguished from a large sword 2a) curved sword, for a cutting stroke 2b) a straight sword, for thrusting

If you remember, the first time Jesus sent out the apostles He told them to take nothing with them. They were going to their brethren the Jews and it was expected that their needs would be met by the people they visited. However, this time they were being sent out into the world and they need to fend for themselves regarding their necessities.

I think you make a good point. Funny, I was going to ask you but it sounded rather snarky, I had to delete it, I'd never want to be snarky with you; if you thought they would be using those for slicing bread and hacking open fruit.

But seriously I think there is something else in what you said here.
When they were speaking to the Jews who as a whole were taught to be passive, not to strike....
but the pagan world was very different.

 

[Butch5]

I think you make a good point. Funny, I was going to ask you but it sounded rather snarky, I had to delete it, I'd never want to be snarky with you; if you thought they would be using those for slicing bread and hacking open fruit.

But seriously I think there is something else in what you said here.
When they were speaking to the Jews who as a whole were taught to be passive, not to strike....
but the pagan world was very different.

Yeah, I don't think the intention was to use them as defense against humans. There were eleven apostles and 2 knives/swords that doesn't seem like enough to use for defense.

 

[Gary]

Why did Jesus tell the Apostles, I think it was, to go buy swords? Do you think He didn't really mean physical swords, even though we know Peter carried one?

I believe the answer is in the next verse.

Luke 22
36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.
37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end.”
38 So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.”



From Matthew.

Matthew 26
52 But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?
54 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?”
55 In that hour Jesus said to the multitudes, “Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me? I sat daily with you, teaching in the temple, and you did not seize Me.
56 But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples forsook Him and fled.


The prophecy.

Isaiah 53
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.
.

 

[Deborah13]

I believe the answer is in the next verse.

Luke 22
36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.
37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end.”
38 So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.”



From Matthew.

Matthew 26
52 But Jesus said to him, “Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.
53 Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?
54 How then could the Scriptures be fulfilled, that it must happen thus?”
55 In that hour Jesus said to the multitudes, “Have you come out, as against a robber, with swords and clubs to take Me? I sat daily with you, teaching in the temple, and you did not seize Me.
56 But all this was done that the Scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples forsook Him and fled.


The prophecy.

Isaiah 53
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.
.

Wow Gary, I'm going to have to stew on this for a bit.............................
Thanks