Should pastors preach such words from the pulpit?

[handy]

Ok, let's calm down kids. I don't want to have to lock the thread. We do need to let each other speak for themselves and not infer intent by others. When I last looked, it was God and God alone who looks into the heart of man.

Relic, I have no problems with you posting the articles here (or in Current Events) because it is the discussion of the nation now, and there is no reason for us not to discuss it. Drew, I have no problem with you feeling that these are somehow ad hominim attacks on Barak Obama, and agree that as Christians we need to hold Obama to the same standard of judgement that we to any other, which is to say a Christian standard of understanding and love.

Ultimately it is for each of us to decide whether or not the articles about Obama are propaganda designed to discredit him before an election or good food for thought when making our decision about whom to vote for. The press is free, simply because when we allow everything in the marketplace of ideas, then folks can make up their own minds. Relic is simply posting what she thinks is pertinent information. If Drew, or anyone else thinks it's propaganda, then no one will be forced to agree with it.

 

[Relic]

Amen to that Handy,
Thank you.

 

[Drew]

I agree with you, handy. Posters have the right to post any material they wish to and other posters have the right to argue that such material constitutes propaganda.

 

[destiny]

What is Black Liberation Theology?
Olivetree ministries


For the last several weeks the news has been replete with stories about Barack Obama's pastor, Rev. Jeremiah Wright. You would have to see the news clips to grasp the extremity of his views and intensity of his words. While America is not perfect, to see her cursed in a church pulpit has been troubling, disheartening, and even sickening.

Barack Obama sat under this for 22 years and he wants to have the most powerful position in the entire world: President of the United States. But he didn't get gospel preaching under Wright -- he got instruction that revolves around a belief system called Black Liberation Theology. So what is that?

The most prominent leader of Black Liberation Theology is Rev. James Cone whose 1969 book Black Liberation and Black Power was hugely influential in disseminating the beliefs of this movement. Those who have examined it suggest that the belief system of Rev. Jeremiah Wright of Trinity United Church of Christ mirrors those of Cone: Jesus is black, Marxism can aid in a true understanding of the gospels, and the white church in America is evil or, some might even say, is the Antichrist.

Cone argued that the white church and white theologians had all failed in their duties to uphold biblical principles of helping the poor and marginalized of society. Indeed, in Cone's view, white Christians had become actively complicit in making the lives of others worse. Because of this, it was no longer acceptable to leave the interpretation of the Bible to white Christians.

Black Liberation Theology is dangerous, unscriptural and misrepresents "white efforts" to help the poor. The fact is, most humanitarian agencies have white leadership and white Christians support the organizations. But Cone didn't stop with just whites: He also criticized middle-class black churches. He felt all black churches should speak out as Rev. Wright has been doing for decades.

Now The Washington Times has come out with information to make the scenario even worse. They state in their April 2, 2008 issue, "The church where Sen. Barack Obama has worshipped for two decades publicly declares that its ministry is founded on a 1960s book that espouses 'the destruction of the white enemy.' They quote Cone as saying, 'What we need is the divine love as expressed in black power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject His love."

This is bizarre, yet a spokesman for Obama says, "It's absurd to suggest that Obama or anyone should be held responsible for every quote in every book read by a member of their church."

Wait a minute! We aren't only dealing with a quote or a book! We're talking about a candidate for President of the United States who has remained in a congregation for 22 years that appears to espouse some of the principles above. To have anything to do with Black Liberation Theology is to identify with hard-core Socialism and possibly even Marxism. It comes out of their own mouths.

Every serious church attendee looks into the belief system for the church they choose to attend -- as I have done several times -- because every church has a statement of faith. Even Trinity United Church of Christ is bold about their statement of faith and it is easily accessible.

Where is the outrage that over many years such a fury flourishes in America as Black Liberation Theology? If one looks carefully at it, the principles are almost that of a jihadist! This goes well beyond the antics of the "religious left" and makes them look like moderates -- which, by comparison, they are.

Pray for our churches today. Whether they are caught up in wrong theology or dangerous theology, God has not forgotten them nor should we. America will be as strong or weak as her churches are.

 

[Drew]

Barack Obama sat under this for 22 years and he wants to have the most powerful position in the entire world: President of the United States.

The problem is that it is unclear what the exact nature of this relationship is and what influence has been exerted. I could argue that John McCain has been "under" a number of Republican administrations over the years that have engaged in a range of unethical practices.

But I won't actually do this. Why? Because it is simply not fair to presume that Mr. McCain either endorsed these shenanigans or was part of them. Things are not as simple as they seem - one should not assume that Mr. Obama has been influenced by this church anymore than we should assume that Mr. McCain ethics have been compromised by what I think is a clear history of unethical behaviour of the party he is a member of.

 

[handy]

I don't know, Drew. A politcal party is different from a church. There are just as many unethical Democrats as there are unethical Republicans and there are just as many ethical Republicans as there are ethical Democrats. The old myth that Repulicans are all evil, rich, fat, men and that all Democrats are great Joe's looking out for the little guy is just that, a myth.

Churches are different. One generally doesn't join a church because they agree with a certain idology of how best to get things done. One joins a church because one believes in the doctrines and the message of that church. As destiny said, every church attendee looks seriously at the church's statement of faith. There is just a lot more that goes into the decision regarding the church one will attend than there is the political party one chooses to side with. And, it should be noted that McCain is the great maverick of the Repulican party, so much so that many Republicans won't support him. Actually, McCain's independent streak is the main thing I like about him. Only one pretty much cannot get elected to a high office in this country without being affiliated with one or the other party. It happens, but it's rare that an independent gets very far.

 

[Drew]

One generally doesn't join a church because they agree with a certain idology of how best to get things done. One joins a church because one believes in the doctrines and the message of that church.

I politely disagree. In fact, I am a member of the United Church of Canada precisely because I feel called to participate in bringing this church out of what I think of as its falling away from Scriptural truth. People should not assume that people either endorse or are influenced by the doctrines of the churches they are members of. Each case is unique.

 

[Drew]

And, it should be noted that McCain is the great maverick of the Repulican party, so much so that many Republicans won't support him. Actually, McCain's independent streak is the main thing I like about him.

I agree with you on this. While I do not get to vote, I have to live with the consequences due to the strong effect American policies have on Canada and the rest of the world. I like McCain "personally" and think he is the best of the Republican nominees.

 

[Relic]

.



If Jeremiah Wright is a prophet, Isaiah wasn't

By Dennis Prager

Posted: April 01, 2008
1:00 am Eastern

© 2008

Were the controversial comments made by the Rev. Jeremiah Wright "prophetic"? That is the claim made by a large number of black and white clergy, by the head of the United Church of Christ and by many other defenders of Rev. Wright.

As summarized by the religion editor of the Kansas City Star (March 29, 2008):

"Scholars and black clergy say Wright … simply reflects a heritage of prophetic preaching in the black church. Prophetic preaching 'is the trademark of the black church tradition, of which Jeremiah Wright is perhaps one of the most illustrious exemplars,' said Walter Earl Fluker of Morehouse College in Atlanta.

"'Black prophetic preaching emerges from black slavery,' said the Rev. Angela Sims, instructor of Christian ethics and black church studies at St. Paul School of Theology in Kansas City. 'Black prophetic preaching can be associated with Old Testament prophets, including Amos, Hosea, Jeremiah and Isaiah,' she said.

"'The African-American church has always had a prophetic role in black life in America,' said the Rev. Donald D. Ford I of Second Missionary Baptist Church of Grandview.

"'Wright fits in that tradition,' said Peter Paris, professor emeritus of Christian social ethics at Princeton Theological Seminary in New Jersey."

The Chicago Tribune (March 28) reported that "Wright's preaching … is in the 'prophetic' tradition, one of many that have evolved in black pulpits. … 'Shocking words like "God damn America" lie at the core of prophetic preaching,' said Rev. Bernard Richardson, dean of the chapel at Howard University."

In the Wisconsin State Journal, Bill Wineke, a columnist and ordained clergyman of the United Church of Christ, or UCC, wrote:

"You see, you and I may look at the short clips of Wright sermons played almost endlessly on cable television and agree that they are filled with 'hate.' [Hillary] Clinton knows better. … She knows the tradition of prophetic preaching in the church. Every theologian I know who has actually attended Trinity United Church of Christ – including Martin Marty, probably the most popular theologian in America today – agrees Wright's sermons, taken in context, rest squarely in that tradition."

Wineke then goes on to relate how another UCC minister, from a generation ago, also spoke from the prophetic tradition:

"In Madison, the late Rev. Alfred W. Swan, minister of the First Congregational Church (now part of the UCC) from 1930 to 1965, was regularly denounced for his preaching. One Sunday in 1952, Swan mounted the pulpit to announce 'I am not a Communist, and I have no intention of being one.' That was after Swan had criticized the Korean War, urged the country to make peace with China and suggested that Russians were better off than they had been before the 1917 Revolution. Not surprisingly, Swan regularly faced calls for his dismissal."

The Rev. Anthony B. "Tony" Robinson wrote in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer (March 28), "After 9/11, Wright charged that 'America's chickens are coming home to roost' … he said 'God damn America.' … Sounds like what the Bible calls a prophet."

The Dallas Morning News (March 29) reported, "More than two dozen well-known black preachers and scholars, in Dallas for a long-planned conference, offered unequivocal support Friday for one of their number who was not there. … Several of the scholars and preachers spoke at a news conference. They said that Dr. Wright's sermons fit into a long-standing black tradition of prophetic preaching."

Warren Bolton, associate editor of Columbia's (S.C.) The State (March 26), compared the Rev. Wright with Jesus Christ.

The Rev. Marshall Hatch, pastor of New Mount Pilgrim Baptist Church in Chicago, wrote in the Austin Weekly News (March 26): "It is providential that this has come in the midst of Holy Week 2008, a season when we commemorate the crucifixion of Christ and the vindication of God for faithfulness to prophetic speech."

The Dallas Morning News (March 19) quoted the Rev. Tyrone Gordon, pastor at St. Luke Community United Methodist Church in Dallas, as saying: "One thing I said to the church on this past Sunday is that a lot of us are taking it personally because it is an attack on the whole black prophetic experience."

Now, what are some of the comments that are so widely deemed "prophetic"?

"We've bombed Hiroshima, we've bombed Nagasaki, we've nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye."

"We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant. Because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back into our own front yards."

"America's chickens are coming home to roost. Violence begets violence. Hatred begets hatred and terrorism begets terrorism."

"The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America'? No, no, no, not 'God Bless America,' 'God Damn America.'"

"The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color. The government lied."

As morally disturbing as the Rev. Wright's comments are, and as troubling as is the fact that the man favored to be the Democratic Party's candidate for president of the United States chose to stay in the reverend's church for 20 years, there is something even more disturbing in the widespread labeling of these comments as "prophetic."

It is one thing to have a broken moral compass as do the Rev. Wright and those many Americans of all colors who also see America as a force for evil; who also believe immoral American behavior caused the slaughter of 9/11; who similarly regard America as morally equivalent to its terrorist enemies; and who see Israel as the moral equivalent of those who seek to exterminate the Jewish state. But to distort the biblical prophets' values to mean the opposite of what they actually mean is arguably an even greater sin.

The essence of the real prophets was not that they said things that disturbed people; the moral essence of the prophets was their moral clarity. They knew the difference between good and evil. "Woe unto those who call good 'evil' and call evil 'good,'" said the Prophet Isaiah.

Those who cannot see the monumental moral gulf between America and the unspeakably evil jihadists America is fighting in Iraq and elsewhere are not prophets. Those who think Americans got what they deserved on 9/11 are not prophets. Those who think the Russian people were better off under Communism are not prophets. Those who think America developed AIDS and infected people of color with it are not prophets. Those who think America is more worthy of damnation than of blessing are not prophets. They are fools.


source: wdn.com

.

 

[Relic]

.

Obama’s Former Pastor Getting $1.6M Home in Retirement
by FOXNews.com
Thursday, March 27, 2008
By Jeff Goldblatt

The four- bedroom, 10,000-plus square foot home that
Trinity United Church of Christ is building for Reverend Jeremiah Wright.
(FNC Photo)

This was supposed to be the week that the Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr. returned to the pulpit to preach for the first time since his anti-American sermons generated nationwide outrage and drew condemnation from his longtime parishioner, Barack Obama.

But, citing security concerns, Wright canceled his speaking engagements in Florida and Texas. A spokeswoman at his former church in Chicago said his schedule is pending.

A two-week FOX News investigation, however, has uncovered where Wright will be spending a good deal of his time in retirement, and it is a far cry from the impoverished Chicago streets where the preacher led his ministry for 36 years.

FOX News has uncovered documents that indicate Wright is about to move to a 10,340-square-foot, four-bedroom home in suburban Chicago, currently under construction in a gated community.

While it is not uncommon for an accomplished clergyman to live in luxury, Wright’s retirement residence is raising some questions.

“Some people think deals like this are hypocritical. Jeremiah Wright himself criticizes people from the pulpit for middle classism, for too much materialism,†said Andrew Walsh, Associate Director of the Leonard E. Greenberg Center for the Study of Religion in Public Life with Trinity College in Hartford, Conn.

“So he’s entitled to be tweaked here. So the question really is, how unusual is this? Somewhat unusual,†he said.

According to documents obtained from the Cook County Register of Deeds, Wright purchased two empty lots in Tinley Park, Ill., from Chicago restaurant chain owner Kenny Lewis for $345,000 in 2004.

Documents show Wright sold the property to his church, Trinity United, in December 2006, with the proceeds going to a living trust shared with his wife, Ramah.

The sale price for the land was just under $308,000, about $40,000 less than Wright’s original purchase two years earlier.

Public records of the sale show Trinity initially obtained a $10 million bank loan to purchase the property and build a new house on the land.

But further investigation with tax and real estate attorneys showed that the church had actually secured a $1.6 million mortgage for the home purchase, and attached a $10 million line of credit, for reasons unspecified in the paperwork.

There is apparently nothing wrong with that, according to non-profit tax expert Jack Siegel of Charity Governance Consulting, who examined public documents FOX News obtained from the Cook County Register of Deeds and the Village of Tinley Park.

“At least looking at it from a public document standpoint, there’s clearly not a problem that jumps out or some sort of wrongdoing,†Siegel said.

Siegel characterizes the transaction as unusual, however, because of the way Wright sold the property to Trinity and the way the deal was financed, with the attached $10 million line of credit.

Because churches are classified as private businesses, Trinity isn’t required to reveal its intended use for the line of credit. Nor, because it’s a non-profit entity, is it required to provide that information to the IRS.

A spokesman for ShoreBank, the Chicago-based financial institution that secured mortgages for the loans, said the deals were aboveboard.

Wright did not respond to repeated calls for comment, and Trinity United refused to discuss the specifics of the home it is building for him and the way the deal was financed.

The church referred FOX News to its denominational headquarters in Cleveland, which provided a statement of support:

“It is customary and appropriate in many Christian denominations, including the United Church of Christ, for local churches to offer housing provisions for retiring clergy, especially in cases where pastors have served long-term pastorates. We support efforts by our 5,700 local churches to ensure that retiring pastors and spouses have continuing housing, adequate pension and health care, as an expression of our continuing appreciation for their years of service. Each local UCC congregation is free to honor a retiring pastor in ways it feels most appropriate to address the needs of that clergyperson’s circumstances,†wrote the Rev. J. Bennett Guess, spokesman for UCC’s national office.

“This is about how these kinds of churches work,†notes Walsh. “These pastors who made big successful churches are real valuable commodities. Is it morally wrong? Well, Protestants don’t have the idea that their religious leaders should live modestly or aesthetically. We’re not talking Buddhist monks or Catholic priests here. There’s no tradition that says they have to live poor.â€Â

Tradition at Trinity United centers on a congregation that’s unashamedly black and unapologetically Christian, according to the church’s website. There are also no apologies from the church for the home it’s building for its former senior pastor, who nurtured a religious empire that grew to have more than 8,000 congregants.


source: foxnews.com

.

 

[Malachi45]

Whatever Jeremiah wants to do to the Body of Christ, then the Body of Christ also does to Jeremiah, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Jeremiah has made his narrow gate wider and broader, and has set his way that leads him and those who follow him to destruction. Jeremiah’s seduction and deception through his “empty deceit†of his own doctrine of demons, and philosophy of the world has forgotten that the gate is narrow and difficult. And sad as it is, he has forgotten that that narrow gate is the only way that leads to eternal life.

His Servants know that there are few who find it. (Matt. 7:12-16)

His Servants are aware, and not unaware of the false prophets, who infiltrate into the Body of Christ in sheep’s clothing. Jeremiah has seduced and deceived his own soul, and turning his soul into a ravenous wolf. His Servants see Jeremiah gathering grapes from thornbushes and figs from thistles!

HE warned us of false christs and false prophets, who have already risen up and showing great signs and wonders to deceive the elect, which we see today of the many TV evangelists covered in gold and fine clothing of extreme quality, and those budding Christian authors who all of a sudden reached the accolades of stardom as best-selling author of the era. (Matt. 24:15-25)

His Servants can see Jeremiah as a false prophet, teaching falsely amongst the Body of Christ and bringing destructive heresies within in soul of the gullible, and in denying our Lord Jesus Christ he also bring those who follow to reap destruction.

These destructive ways are blaspheming the Holy Spirit, he is not blaspheming our Lord Jesus Christ because that sin is forgivable, but he is ignoring the leading and guiding of the Holy Spirit, which is unforgivable.

Jeremiah’s sin of covetousness is being exploited by his deceptive words; but his judgment has not been idle, and those who follow him “their destruction does not slumberâ€Â.

We know what our Almighty God did to the angels who sinned, and HE cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment.

HE didn’t spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world onto the ungodly!

HE turned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly, and we can see that today as many like Jeremiah haven’t learnt anything.

HE delivered righteous Lot, from his oppression by the filthy conduct of the wicked.

And now we know that our Lord Jesus Christ will deliver His Servants out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the Day of Judgment. Those who walk according to the flesh in their lust of uncleanness and despise authority are presumptuous, self-willed, and proud.

Is Jeremiah speaking evil of dignitaries and leaders, and is he bringing reviling accusation against them before the Lord?

Jeremiah is a wolf, a natural brute beast, who has set his own snare to be caught and destroyed. He speaks evil of the things that he doesn’t understand, and will utterly perish in his own corruption, receiving the wages of unrighteousness.

Jeremiah has many spots and blemishes, and he carouses his own deceptions, having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sinning, and enticing unstable souls, double-minded people.

His heart is trained in covetous practices, and those who follow him are accursed children. (2 Pet. 2:1-14)