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Should The Law Punish Adultery

Lewis

Member
This is from an article from CNN, that I saw today. Should the law punish adultery ? http://www.cnn.com/

indLaw) -- Last week, four-star Army General Kevin Byrnes, a 36-year veteran on the brink of retirement, was relieved of his command of Fort Monroe. According to press accounts, Byrnes lost his command as punishment for committing adultery. Yet Byrnes contends that the adultery occurred after he was formally separated from his wife, was committed with a civilian, and did not affect his official duties.

Should the Army initiate prosecution, Byrnes could face further discipline that could deprive him of thousands of dollars in retirement pay. The removal of command has already cost his reputation.

Numerous members of the armed services are disciplined annually for consensual relationships. With the nation at war and the armed forces missing recruitment goals, is there any possible justification for disciplining military personnel for private consensual conduct?

The answer is surely no. But explaining exactly why will require me to confront a related question: How can the law subject anyone to sanctions for adultery?
Code on conduct

The Uniform Code of Military Justice does not specifically prohibit adultery, but it does contain a provision, Article 134external link, prohibiting "all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces [and] all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces . . . ."

If a state or the federal government were to impose criminal penalties on civilians for such a vaguely defined offense, the courts would strike it down as inconsistent with due process. American constitutional law requires that the criminal statute books give every person fair notice of what conduct is and is not prohibited, and the language quoted above fails to do that.

Nonetheless, the Supreme Court upheld Article 134 against a vagueness challenge in the 1974 case of Parker v. Levyexternal link. Writing for a majority, then-Justice Rehnquist opined that the vagueness doctrine should be less demanding for military discipline than for criminal punishment of civilians, in part because the Uniform Code is not intended to be comprehensive in the way that a civilian criminal code is.

And it would surely be disingenuous for General Byrnes to claim that he was unaware that the armed forces prohibited adultery. Paragraph 62 of the Manual for Courts-Martialexternal link expressly defines adultery as violating the "prejudice of good order" provision of the Uniform Code. (Note that I have provided a link to the 2000 edition on a Navy Web site, but the same manual applies to the Army. Amendments adopted by executive order in 2002 did not change paragraph 62.)
Good order and discipline

Nonetheless, General Byrnes appears to have a good defense to charges under paragraph 62. That paragraph requires not only that a married member of the armed forces had sexual intercourse with someone other than his spouse, but also "[t]hat, under the circumstances, the conduct of the accused was to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces or was of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces."

It is easy to see how an officer who conducted an extramarital affair with one of his subordinates might thereby prejudice "good order and discipline." But the woman with whom he had an affair was not in the military.

A consensual adulterous relationship with a civilian could prejudice "good order and discipline" or "bring discredit upon the armed forces" under some circumstances.

The military chain of command depends upon trust. It may be reasonable to infer that someone who would break his solemn wedding vows would also break the bonds of trust with the men and women under his command.

Whatever one thinks of the trust point, however, it is difficult to see that it applies to General Byrnes. By his account, the extra-marital relationship occurred when he was separated from his wife.

Perhaps because the case against General Byrnes appears to be so weak, the Army has not brought formal adultery charges against him. According to anonymous Army officials quoted in the New York Times, General Byrnes was not relieved of his command for adultery as such, but rather for disobeying an order to end his adulterous relationship pending the outcome of an Army investigation.

If true, that would put the Army action in a somewhat better light, but it is hard not to sympathize with General Byrnes: If there was nothing illicit about the relationship, why should he have been required to break it off or forfeit his command?
Adultery and 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell'

More broadly, the Byrnes case raises two sorts of legal and policy questions. Should the armed forces really be disciplining officers and enlisted personnel for consensual sexual conduct?

Even if one credits the rationales I have provided for treating certain consensual relationships as in some way prejudicial to good order and military discipline, the adultery provision of the Manual for Courts-Martial is at best a blunt instrument for furthering those rationales.

A sexual relationship with a subordinate could constitute an abuse of power, but the abuse has nothing to do with the marital status of the people conducting it. Such relationships are likely to be more harmful when they occur between single people, because a single commander is more likely to conduct the relationship openly and send harmful signals to other subordinates.

It is true that adultery often bespeaks a character flaw, but so do a host of other forms of private conduct that the military does not proscribe.

The adultery prohibition seems more concerned with enforcing "morals" than with promoting military discipline as such. In this respect, it is of a piece with the senseless "don't ask, don't tell" policy that excludes from military service thousands of patriotic Americans because of their private consensual sexual conduct.

To say that a particular provision of the Uniform Code of Military Justice or the Manual for Courts-Martial is senseless, however, is not to say that it cannot be validly enforced. Courts have a long tradition of deferring to the military itself, or to the political branches of government in evaluating military policies.

Thus, a judge might well agree with me that the adultery prohibition -- or, to take another example from the Uniform Code, the prohibition of sodomy, whether performed with a person of the same or opposite sex -- is profoundly unwise, but could nonetheless uphold the military rule under a principle of deference.

But what about parallel laws in civilian life? In the 2003 case of Lawrence v. Texasexternal link, the U.S. Supreme Court invalidated a Texas law prohibiting same-sex sodomy, in an opinion making clear that even a prohibition that applied equally to heterosexual and homosexual acts would be unconstitutional. The Lawrence opinion was underwritten by a principle holding that the government has no legitimate business interfering with the private consensual conduct of consenting adults. Might the same principle invalidate state laws prohibiting adultery?
Adultery, same-sex sodomy

The line of cases culminating in Lawrence includes statements affirming the power of the state to prohibit adultery, so one might think that adultery is not like same-sex sodomy.

Yet these statements cannot be taken at face value, for they originate with a dissent by Justice Harlan in the 1961 case of Poe v. Ullman, which also asserted state power to prohibit homosexual conduct. Given that the Court in Lawrence was willing to use the logic of Justice Harlan's Poe dissent without also embracing its assertion of state power to regulate homosexual acts, it might also be willing to extend the principle of freedom from state interference with sexual relationships of consenting adults to encompass adultery, notwithstanding the other Poe assertion.

However, there are important distinctions between, on the one hand, non-adulterous sex between consenting adults of the same or opposite sex, and, on the other hand, adulterous sex. Most obviously, non-adulterous sex between consenting adults typically harms no third parties, whereas adultery typically constitutes a breach of perhaps the most solemn promise a person can make.

Accordingly, one might conclude that the Lawrence precedent will not be extended to cover adultery.
Civil, criminal penalties

Perhaps adultery ought to be understood simply as a very serious breach of contract. Adulterers cause real harm to their spouses, and just as the law makes those who breach their commercial contracts pay damages for the harm they cause, there seems nothing wrong with "fault" divorces that impose greater financial obligations on adulterers than on other ex-spouses.

But by the same token, just as we long ago abolished debtors' prison, so too it is long past time to recognize that the criminal law is an improper tool to use against adulterers.

The issue is not hypothetical: According to a Washington Post essay by George Washington University law professor Jonathan Turley, as of last September, the criminal codes of 24 states still prohibited adultery, and zealous prosecutors still invoke these provisions from time to time.

Until now, legislators have been understandably reluctant to propose decriminalization and risk appearing to be "pro-adultery." And unlike the gay rights movement, which could litigate under the banner of "gay pride," no one has been especially eager to bring a test case on behalf of adulterers.

But because of the special circumstances surrounding the acts committed by General Byrnes, he may present the unusual case of a sympathetic adulterer. It would be ironic, though fitting, if public outcry over the injustice of his treatment led to broad legal reform through legislative action or the courts.

Michael C. Dorf, a FindLawexternal link columnist, is professor of law at Columbia University.
http://www.cnn.com/
 
Interesting article. I personally see adultry as a personal issue between married people. I would not want the government involved in that anymore than I would want them involved in other maritial disputes.

Adultry is also hard to define. Is flirting adultry? Cybersex? Calling adult 1-900 numbers? Romantic hugging?

My wife and I went to a strip club in Las Vegas. To some that would be cheating. However, we both had a great time and no harm was done to either of us. So I would want the government not to interfere with what my wife and I are comfortable with.

Quath
 
Bragging about going to a "strip club" on a Christian forum.

Class, no one can take that away from you Quath... 8-)
 
bibleberean said:
Bragging about going to a "strip club" on a Christian forum.

Class, no one can take that away from you Quath... 8-)
At least he's open and honest about it. Lots of men with Christian beliefs frequent strip clubs, porn sites, and so forth.

So is it classy to be honest, or to sneak?
 
Quath said:
Adultry is also hard to define. Is flirting adultry? Cybersex? Calling adult 1-900 numbers? Romantic hugging?...
Quath
It depends on the point of view. Ask a Christian and you're likely to get...

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

:angel:

But if you weren't married, it would be coveting.
 
My wife and I went to a strip club in Las Vegas. To some that would be cheating. However, we both had a great time and no harm was done to either of us.

Adultery and cheating aren't the same thing. Cheating is something done without spousal consent, adultery is adultery regardless of whether you have consent from your spouse or not.
 
Vic said:
It depends on the point of view. Ask a Christian and you're likely to get...

Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

:angel:

But if you weren't married, it would be coveting.
Would you see that as grounds for divorce? Say a man looks too long as a Sears catalogue in the underware section. His wife notices his gaze lingering. She concludes he is gazing lustifully and he has committed adultry. If she sought divorce, should she be treated as if her husband had been sneaking out with his secretary?

Scott said:
Adultery and cheating aren't the same thing. Cheating is something done without spousal consent, adultery is adultery regardless of whether you have consent from your spouse or not.
I think that is a good clarification.

--------------------

There was an old priest who got sick of all the people in his parish who kept confessing adultery. One Sunday, from the pulpit, he said, "If I hear one more person confess to adultery, I'll quit!"

Well, everyone liked him, so they came up with a code word. Someone had commiteed adultery would say they had "fallen."

This seemed to satisfy the old priest and things went well, until the priest died at a ripe old age. About a week after the new priest arrived, he visited the Mayor of the town and seemed very concerned.

The priest said, "You have to do something about the sidewalk in town. When people come to the confessional, they keep talking about having fallen."

The Mayor started to laugh, realizing that no one had told the new priest about the code word.

Before the Mayor could explain, the priest shook an accusing finger at the Mayor and said, "I don't know what you're laughing about! Your wife fell three times this week!"

Quath
 
Quath said:
Before the Mayor could explain, the priest shook an accusing finger at the Mayor and said, "I don't know what you're laughing about! Your wife fell three times this week!"
:smt043
 
Orthodox Christian said:
bibleberean said:
Bragging about going to a "strip club" on a Christian forum.

Class, no one can take that away from you Quath... 8-)
At least he's open and honest about it. Lots of men with Christian beliefs frequent strip clubs, porn sites, and so forth.

So is it classy to be honest, or to sneak?

I don't mind your public confession. At least you aren't bragging about it.

I will pray for you.

There is no sin Jesus won't forgive my friend.
 
Years ago, I use to go to strip clubs myself. But anyway if the government gets into punishing adultery cases, things will turn very ugly.
 
Quath said:
Interesting article. I personally see adultry as a personal issue between married people. I would not want the government involved in that anymore than I would want them involved in other maritial disputes.

Adultry is also hard to define. Is flirting adultry? Cybersex? Calling adult 1-900 numbers? Romantic hugging?

My wife and I went to a strip club in Las Vegas. To some that would be cheating. However, we both had a great time and no harm was done to either of us. So I would want the government not to interfere with what my wife and I are comfortable with.

Quath

No harm? You call supporting an industry that takes advantage of women and enslaves the souls of so many, no harm. You call increasing the chance that some pimp will lure my three daughters in to this wicked industry no harm? You have a sick distorted view of what no harm is, all for your great time. You have no idea the distorted view of human sexuality these women who perform in these places have. Many of them have been abused and actually HATE MEN. It is extremely sinful to participate in such a thing in any way and you need to repent of your wickedness. I say this by the obligation I have according to Ez 3 and 33.

I will pray for your soul.

Thessalonian
 
bibleberean said:
Orthodox Christian said:
bibleberean said:
Bragging about going to a "strip club" on a Christian forum.

Class, no one can take that away from you Quath... 8-)
At least he's open and honest about it. Lots of men with Christian beliefs frequent strip clubs, porn sites, and so forth.

So is it classy to be honest, or to sneak?

I don't mind your public confession. At least you aren't bragging about it.

I will pray for you.

There is no sin Jesus won't forgive my friend.
I don't go to strip clubs, Robert, nor do I look at porn...but of course you already knew that.

But many Christian men do... yet you would take a shot at Quath because he's open about it.

I don't go to strip clubs or look at porn or soft porn because I know the life that these girls come from, and it doesn't titilate me, it nauseates me.



Responding as if this was a 'confession' on my part was a nice zinger, though, if you're into zingers, and you think pinning sins and sinfulness on others makes you appear more holy.

If you do pray for me, pray that I will not respond to hatred with hatred or arrogance with arrogance.
 
Orthodox Christian said:
bibleberean said:
[quote="Orthodox Christian":1859e]
bibleberean said:
Bragging about going to a "strip club" on a Christian forum.

Class, no one can take that away from you Quath... 8-)
At least he's open and honest about it. Lots of men with Christian beliefs frequent strip clubs, porn sites, and so forth.

So is it classy to be honest, or to sneak?

I don't mind your public confession. At least you aren't bragging about it.

I will pray for you.

There is no sin Jesus won't forgive my friend.
I don't go to strip clubs, Robert, nor do I look at porn...but of course you already knew that.

But many Christian men do... yet you would take a shot at Quath because he's open about it.

I don't go to strip clubs or look at porn or soft porn because I know the life that these girls come from, and it doesn't titilate me, it nauseates me.



Responding as if this was a 'confession' on my part was a nice zinger, though, if you're into zingers, and you think pinning sins and sinfulness on others makes you appear more holy.

If you do pray for me, pray that I will not respond to hatred with hatred or arrogance with arrogance.[/quote:1859e]

I have much respect for you OC. That said, admonish the sinner is a corporal work of mercy. Don't let such opportunities to serve the Lord slide by and come under the judgement of the words of Ezekiel. To that end I think Robert was not unjustified in his treatment of you as if you went to strip clubs yourself.


17: "Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me.
18: If I say to the wicked, `You shall surely die,' and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand.
19: But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life.
20: Again, if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.
21: Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and you will have saved your life."


That a Christian would speak of such activity in a boastful way is nothing short of scandalous and needs rebuke.

Blessings Brother[/img]
 
Admonish the sinner. I agree. Bragging about going to a "a strip club" on a Christian forum needs admonishing...

1 Timothy 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

Secret sin or open it is still sin.
 
Thessalonian said:
Orthodox Christian said:
bibleberean said:
[quote="Orthodox Christian":63f29]
bibleberean said:
Bragging about going to a "strip club" on a Christian forum.

Class, no one can take that away from you Quath... 8-)
At least he's open and honest about it. Lots of men with Christian beliefs frequent strip clubs, porn sites, and so forth.

So is it classy to be honest, or to sneak?

I don't mind your public confession. At least you aren't bragging about it.

I will pray for you.

There is no sin Jesus won't forgive my friend.
I don't go to strip clubs, Robert, nor do I look at porn...but of course you already knew that.

But many Christian men do... yet you would take a shot at Quath because he's open about it.

I don't go to strip clubs or look at porn or soft porn because I know the life that these girls come from, and it doesn't titilate me, it nauseates me.



Responding as if this was a 'confession' on my part was a nice zinger, though, if you're into zingers, and you think pinning sins and sinfulness on others makes you appear more holy.

If you do pray for me, pray that I will not respond to hatred with hatred or arrogance with arrogance.

I have much respect for you OC. That said, admonish the sinner is a corporal work of mercy. Don't let such opportunities to serve the Lord slide by and come under the judgement of the words of Ezekiel. To that end I think Robert was not unjustified in his treatment of you as if you went to strip clubs yourself.


17: "Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from my mouth, you shall give them warning from me.
18: If I say to the wicked, `You shall surely die,' and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand.
19: But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life.
20: Again, if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand.
21: Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and you will have saved your life."


That a Christian would speak of such activity in a boastful way is nothing short of scandalous and needs rebuke.

Blessings Brother[/img][/quote:63f29]
I agree that no Christian should boast of doing things that are unseemly, scandalous or immoral. Nowhere in my statement is there any indication that 1. I attend strip clubs or 2. I think of such as appropriate activities for anyone. My issue is with the fact that so many Christians do these things, then DARE to look down their nose at those outside the faith who do so and are open about it.

I'd rather sup with a 'sinner' than a hypocrite any time.

I find establishments that purvey and sell sex as a commodity to be a blight upon our world. I was in Las Vegas 2 months ago, and I was deeply sickened by the objectification and packaging of, well, everything. Human life has little or no value there.

So don't get me wrong, I don't endorse the skin trade, I just think Christians would do well to clean out their own gutters before casting aspersions.

Alternatively:
Any atheist who has convictions about the dignity and equality of women, yet indulges in the product of the skin trade strikes me as morally and ethically inconsistent...knowing as we do the manner in which these women are targeted, cultivated, kept and treated- let alone what makes them vulnerable to being turned out in the first place.
 
Thessalonian said:
I have much respect for you OC. That said, admonish the sinner is a corporal work of mercy. Don't let such opportunities to serve the Lord slide by and come under the judgement of the words of Ezekiel. To that end I think Robert was not unjustified in his treatment of you as if you went to strip clubs yourself.

...

That a Christian would speak of such activity in a boastful way is nothing short of scandalous and needs rebuke.
OC is being treated unfairly in this. He is not supporting people going to strip clubs. He just did not like how BB was addressing me, which was slightly insulting. I am use to that from BB, but I thought it was very nice of OC to object to it. BB then tries to zing OC for a confession that he did not make.

OC seems to be objecting to the way the message is being given to me and BB responds in the same manner to him.

I basically see two possible negative responses to my announcing I went to a strip club:

1. "Strip clubs are degrading to women and the Bible speaks badly of going there. You should reconsider going to such places."

or

2. "You have no class."

The first tries to use reason and the second one is just sticking your tongue out and making a rasberry sound.

Quath
 
Orthodox Christian,

I owe you an apology. I was out of line.

Sincerley,

Robert
 
Quath,

Bragging about going to a strip club in a Christian forum is out of line.

No apology here.

OC showed class. I didn't .

Robert
 
Quath said:
I basically see two possible negative responses to my announcing I went to a strip club:

1. "Strip clubs are degrading to women and the Bible speaks badly of going there. You should reconsider going to such places."

or

2. "You have no class."

The first tries to use reason and the second one is just sticking your tongue out and making a rasberry sound.

I agree 100%. Christians should learn to be more loving and tactful when dealing with those who hold view points contrary to the Bible. This of course should never be done to a point were one is so “tolerate†that they almost show approval for a sin. In other words balance should be sought, with the help of the Holy Spirit or course.
 
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