ProphetMark
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TanNinety said:We both agree that science never made any claims about god.
Science makes claims that contradict the bible doesn't it? Isn't that implying that God doesn't exist?
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TanNinety said:We both agree that science never made any claims about god.
TanNinety said:Here's another way to see it. After considering many scientific things some people are of the opinion that a god exists (demonstrably true, if not all scientists would be atheists). If these people have faith, how is their faith different from yours?
ProphetMark said:TanNinety said:We both agree that science never made any claims about god.
Science makes claims that contradict the bible doesn't it? Isn't that implying that God doesn't exist?
kpd560 said:TanNinety said:Here's another way to see it. After considering many scientific things some people are of the opinion that a god exists (demonstrably true, if not all scientists would be atheists). If these people have faith, how is their faith different from yours?
In my opinion God does not exist but I don't know for sure (We can't know for sure one way or the other unless he physically manifests and does something that proves he exists). This position requires no faith. Theists apparently claim to know that God exists even though it's impossible to know. Theists are making an extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary faith and therefore the burden of proof is on them. Do you follow the logic here?
kpd560 said:ProphetMark said:TanNinety said:We both agree that science never made any claims about god.
Science makes claims that contradict the bible doesn't it? Isn't that implying that God doesn't exist?
Science contradicts most of the bible which indicates to me that the bible is exactly what it appears to be and not what it claims to be. But I still can't know for sure so I make no absolute claims about the bible.
Rick W said:Science is not an entity of it's own. "Science" is but the conclusion of men, what he believes or concludes from certain observations. And of course he may pick and choose what observations he may conclude as evidence to make that conclusion.
Rick W said:Can what man concludes contradict the bible? Of course. If man relies solely on what can be observed then he has faith only the physical concluding there is nothing spiritual because it cannot be observed.
Rick W said:Against all odds people have hope. When logic dictates a certain circumstance will prevail people have hope against that logic. When all else fails people have faith and the hope that all is not dictated by what is observed. And through faith people look toward God in hope.
Hope isn't scientific. Hope isn't logical. Hope can and does survive when logic has failed. It's what separates us from the machines. It's what separates us from despair.
Rick W said:The atheist has faith the theist is wrong believing that God exists. The theist has faith the atheist is wrong believing that God doesn't exist. There's no difference between the two other than where one chooses to put their faith. The only extraordinary thing here is the heart of man. And no amount of logic will replace it.
No, it isn't. Science and scientists don't make any professional claims or have any professional opinions (personal opinions and claims are a different matter) about the supernatural because science only deals with the natural.kpd560 said:In fact, one of the main tenets of science is that the supernatural doesn't exist.
ChattyMute said:No, it isn't. Science and scientists don't make any professional claims or have any professional opinions (personal opinions and claims are a different matter) about the supernatural because science only deals with the natural.kpd560 said:In fact, one of the main tenets of science is that the supernatural doesn't exist.
kpd560 said:ChattyMute said:No, it isn't. Science and scientists don't make any professional claims or have any professional opinions (personal opinions and claims are a different matter) about the supernatural because science only deals with the natural.kpd560 said:In fact, one of the main tenets of science is that the supernatural doesn't exist.
I mean that not in the sense that science asserts that the supernatural doesn't exist because as we all know the presence or absence of something supernatural cannot be ascertained. I mean that science must make the assumption that the supernatural doesn't exist or anything is possible and science is meaningless. Best.
This is a very basic misunderstanding about atheism. I don't have faith that you're wrong. I don't even know what faith would mean in that context. I think you're wrong. It's my opinion that you're wrong. I'm not aware of sufficent reason to think God exists. Where does faith come into it?Rick W said:The atheist has faith the theist is wrong believing that God exists. The theist has faith the atheist is wrong believing that God doesn't exist. There's no difference between the two other than where one chooses to put their faith. The only extraordinary thing here is the heart of man. And no amount of logic will replace it.
logical bob said:Thanks for that Rick, you've made the point I want to make better than I ever could. That's a great description of what your faith means to you, and an atheist doesn't have anything that compares to what you describe. That's why I dispute the idea that atheism and belief are "the same" except for where the faith is placed.
You hold an opinion that you are not sure of ..umm faith much? I’m teasing yakpd560 said:In my opinion God does not exist but I don't know for sure
Let’s go with the milder theist from the above example. Does he have faith?kpd560 said:Theists apparently claim to know that God exists even though it's impossible to know.
Let’s put the assumption ‘supernatural doesn’t exist’ through ockham’s razor to define scientific method. Think it will survive?kpd560 said:I mean that science must make the assumption that the supernatural doesn't exist or anything is possible and science is meaningless. Best.
This kind of reasoning is invalid.ProphetMark said:Science makes claims that contradict the bible doesn't it? Isn't that implying that God doesn't exist?
TanNinety said:This kind of reasoning is invalid.ProphetMark said:Science makes claims that contradict the bible doesn't it? Isn't that implying that God doesn't exist?
http://personal.bellevuecollege.edu/wpa ... theses.htm
For example, let’s consider evolution. Evolution has a core hypothesis and several auxiliary hypotheses. Let’s say one of the auxiliary hypothesis belongs to prediction of a certain specific branch of species and their evolution. Evidence is later found and it falsifies the prediction. Would you say evolution is false? Hardly so. Falsification of auxiliary hypothesis does not mean the core hypothesis is false. But that is what you are doing when you say, science claims contradict certain bible claims, hence God doesn’t exist. That does not follow.
TanNinety said:You hold an opinion that you are not sure of ..umm faith much? I’m teasing yakpd560 said:In my opinion God does not exist but I don't know for sure
Adam was God-breathed (how he became a living soul). Yet the bible shows how Adam was fallible. So, God-breathed is not equal to infallible. Given this your conclusion all or nothing of the bible since it’s God-breathed is not valid.ProphetMark said:Ah but I think the bible's different in that either the whole of the bible is true or it's all a load of rubbish. The bible claims that ALL scripture is God-breathed;
If I say, I never lie, and then I lie, it neither makes me annihilate out of existence nor does it make me a contradiction. Why so? I do not follow the reasoning here. It makes God a liar may be or even at best a hypocrite.the bible also says that God claims to never lie. Perhaps you could say that God, by definition, never lies. So if science contradicts the bible, then it implies that part of what God has said isn't true, ie God does lie. So God, who by definition doesn't lie, doesn't exist. (Or if he does exist, he's a contradiction.)
How much faith is a cutoff to not call a belief system faith based? Very less faith ..may be very very less faith? Becomes subjective doesn’t it. It's a serious question though. If a theist said, "God exists. but I don't know for sure since he doesn't manifest himself physically", is this a faith based belief system?kpd560 said:Consider how much faith you require to not believe in Santa Claus. That's exactly how much faith I require to not believe in God.
The faith cutoff is indeed subjective but is not the entire christian religion based on faith? I'm sure I read the word "faith" very frequently on this forum. I honestly cannot imagine another atheist encouraging me with "you've gotta have faith" if my belief in atheism is flagging. Again, how much faith do you require to not believe in Santa Claus? None, I hope is your answer and that's how much faith I require to not believe the supernatural exists.TanNinety said:How much faith is a cutoff to not call a belief system faith based? Very less faith ..may be very very less faith? Becomes subjective doesn’t it. It's a serious question though. If a theist said, "God exists. but I don't know for sure since he doesn't manifest himself physically", is this a faith based belief system?kpd560 said:Consider how much faith you require to not believe in Santa Claus. That's exactly how much faith I require to not believe in God.