Signs & Miracles that are false duplications?

[reddogs]

How do we sift through all the things that we are seeing as Christ says affliction, violence, false christs and false signs, and wonders so deceptive that even the elect were in danger of being deceived.

Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Acts 8:9
But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

For a starting point lets go over how to distinguish true from false gifts, and start with scripture. Since the true gifts are from God, they will:
1. Agree with scripture.
2. Produce the gifts of the spirit.
3. Lead people to a closer walk with God.

It is easy to claim false gifts if one is not firmly grounded in scripture, we also see true gifts and they will be dispensed as God sees fit for the furtherance of the work, not as many say they have. So how can we test whether the Signs & Miracles are true or evils false duplications?

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Reddogs, can you give us an example of a false gift? I never thought about false gifts before.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Tenchi]

How do we sift through all the things that we are seeing as Christ says affliction, violence, false christs and false signs, and wonders so deceptive that even the elect were in danger of being deceived.

John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 16:13
13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

Any believer hoping to be kept from deception must be "walking in/by the Spirit" daily (Galatians 5:16, 25). What is "walking in the Spirit"? It is being constantly under the Spirit's control, in humility, love, faith and truth remaining submitted to the Spirit as a "living sacrifice" (Romans 12:1) So long as a child of God merely "lives in/by the Spirit," they are "walking in/by the flesh," trying to accomplish a godly end by means of mere fleshly, human power. In such a condition, the believer's life grows rife with self-deception, not least of which is the notion that fleshly effort can produce godliness. These believers are easy prey for the "wolves in sheeps' clothing."

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Psalm 119:105
105 Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.

Without a thorough knowledge of God's word, of His Truth, no child of God can hope to escape being deceived. It is in tandem with Scripture that the Holy Spirit illuminates, convicts and strengthens the mind and heart of every person in whom he dwells. What did Jesus say on this head?

Matthew 22:29
29 But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.

For a starting point lets go over how to distinguish true from false gifts, and start with scripture. Since the true gifts are from God, they will:
1. Agree with scripture.
2. Produce the gifts of the spirit.
3. Lead people to a closer walk with God.

I don't think this accurate...

Yes, a number of the gifts of the Spirit are listed in Scripture, but I'm not sure that all of them are. I don't know of any biblical lists of spiritual gifts at the end of which we read: "And there are no other gifts of the Spirit but these."

How do "true gifts from God" produce the "gifts of the Spirit"? The gifts of the Spirit are gifts from God; they are one-and-the-same thing. As I understand it, every born-again person is imbued with a spiritual gift at the moment they are converted and become a child of God to the edification of the Body of Believers, the Church (1 Corinthians 12; Ephesians 4:1-16; Romans 12:4-13). A believer not under the constant control of the Spirit, however, cannot exercise their spiritual gifting properly, inevitably mixing fleshly effort into the exercise of their spiritual gift and thus fouling the result.

Also, it is by no means certain that a believer's spiritual gifting will inevitably lead others to a closer walk with God. Again, if a believer employs their gifting under their own fleshly power, not submitted to the Spirit's will and way in faith, love, and truth, they will quite possibly lead folks away from God. The flesh, after all, is at enmity with God for it is not subject to the law of God neither indeed can be. (Romans 8:5-8; Galatians 5:17; Galatians 6:7-8)

In light of these things, then, I'm not sure how any of them are helpful in keeping a believer from deception. Certainly, I can think of other things that are far more essential to avoiding being deceived.

 

[JT4444]

How do we sift through all the things that we are seeing as Christ says affliction, violence, false christs and false signs, and wonders so deceptive that even the elect were in danger of being deceived.

Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Acts 8:9
But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

For a starting point lets go over how to distinguish true from false gifts, and start with scripture. Since the true gifts are from God, they will:
1. Agree with scripture.
2. Produce the gifts of the spirit.
3. Lead people to a closer walk with God.

It is easy to claim false gifts if one is not firmly grounded in scripture, we also see true gifts and they will be dispensed as God sees fit for the furtherance of the work, not as many say they have. So how can we test whether the Signs & Miracles are true or evils false duplications?

I became a believer in the 1990s, in the suburbs of Toronto. If you remember that time, you remember the "Toronto Blessing" and thousands and thousands of people who traveled to the Airport Vineyard. I saw what I considered to be real manifestations of the Holy Spirit and ones that were not.

 

[reddogs]

Hey All,
Reddogs, can you give us an example of a false gift? I never thought about false gifts before.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Well lets look ...

 

[reddogs]

John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 16:13
13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

Any believer hoping to be kept from deception must be "walking in/by the Spirit" daily (Galatians 5:16, 25). What is "walking in the Spirit"? It is being constantly under the Spirit's control, in humility, love, faith and truth remaining submitted to the Spirit as a "living sacrifice" (Romans 12:1) So long as a child of God merely "lives in/by the Spirit," they are "walking in/by the flesh," trying to accomplish a godly end by means of mere fleshly, human power. In such a condition, the believer's life grows rife with self-deception, not least of which is the notion that fleshly effort can produce godliness. These believers are easy prey for the "wolves in sheeps' clothing."

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Psalm 119:105
105 Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.

Without a thorough knowledge of God's word, of His Truth, no child of God can hope to escape being deceived. It is in tandem with Scripture that the Holy Spirit illuminates, convicts and strengthens the mind and heart of every person in whom he dwells. What did Jesus say on this head?

Matthew 22:29
29 But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.



I don't think this accurate...

Yes, a number of the gifts of the Spirit are listed in Scripture, but I'm not sure that all of them are. I don't know of any biblical lists of spiritual gifts at the end of which we read: "And there are no other gifts of the Spirit but these."

How do "true gifts from God" produce the "gifts of the Spirit"? The gifts of the Spirit are gifts from God; they are one-and-the-same thing. As I understand it, every born-again person is imbued with a spiritual gift at the moment they are converted and become a child of God to the edification of the Body of Believers, the Church (1 Corinthians 12; Ephesians 4:1-16; Romans 12:4-13). A believer not under the constant control of the Spirit, however, cannot exercise their spiritual gifting properly, inevitably mixing fleshly effort into the exercise of their spiritual gift and thus fouling the result.

Also, it is by no means certain that a believer's spiritual gifting will inevitably lead others to a closer walk with God. Again, if a believer employs their gifting under their own fleshly power, not submitted to the Spirit's will and way in faith, love, and truth, they will quite possibly lead folks away from God. The flesh, after all, is at enmity with God for it is not subject to the law of God neither indeed can be. (Romans 8:5-8; Galatians 5:17; Galatians 6:7-8)

In light of these things, then, I'm not sure how any of them are helpful in keeping a believer from deception. Certainly, I can think of other things that are far more essential to avoiding being deceived.

Yes, but many claim they are born again and yet have no fruits so what 'spirit' are they following....

 

[Josef]

Yes, but many claim they are born again and yet have no fruits so what 'spirit' are they following....

Hey All,
I don't want to interrupt your conversation reddogs and Tenchi. It's a good one. But John answers your question reddogs.

1 John 2:18-20 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

I will leave it at that. Please continue.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Tenchi]

Yes, but many claim they are born again and yet have no fruits so what 'spirit' are they following....

There are a number of things that can keep a genuinely born-again person from producing good spiritual "fruit":

- ignorance (lack of discipleship, personal study of God's word).
- powerfully-established habits/addictions.
- false teachers/teaching.
- strong, external resistance to Christian belief and practice (antagonism of family and friends to one's faith, cultural enmity toward Christianity, etc.).

An apple tree may be so young that it cannot yet bear fruit, but it is still an apple tree. An apple tree may be in poor soil, undernourished and poorly-watered, and so not bear fruit, but it is still an apple tree. And apple tree may be afflicted with damaging insect pests, or be rooted in toxic soil, and thus cannot bear fruit, but it is still an apple tree.

So, too, the born-again believer who is brand-new to the faith, or persistently ignorant of the contents of the Bible, or struggling against old habits and addictions, or has fallen prey to false teachers and teachings, or must bear sharp antagonism and suffering because of their faith. Under such difficulties, they may not bear much "fruit" (or any "fruit" at all) but they are still truly born-again. And so, though spiritual "fruit" is inevitable in a born-again believer (if they are not afflicted in the ways I've pointed out), such fruit must not be said to be necessary to being born-again.

There are, though, many, many people in the modern, western Church who are not born-again but think they are. Estimates by some pastors thirty-plus years ago were that 50% of people attending a Sunday morning worship service in North America were not actually saved. I think that percentage has risen sharply and is now likely around the 85% mark (or higher, even).

Though a genuinely born-again believer may end up in a pigpen of moral and spiritual compromise and sin, if they are truly born-again, they will look up from the filth and stench of the pigpen, at some point, and desire to return to their heavenly Father (Luke 15:11-32). Pigs never do, though; they are content to wallow in the foulness of their pen, never thinking to get out of it. This is one way in which genuine believers distinguish themselves from mere pretenders.

If I want to know if I'm dealing with a genuinely born-again person, I ask, "What is their direct, personal experience of God?". Most of the time, I get a long list of what they are doing for God. And so, I usually have to ask a couple of times what GOD is doing in, and to, and through them. Commonly, they aren't sure and are doubtful such a question is proper to ask. One lady even denied that God would do anything to her directly and discernibly and thinking He would was unbiblical! As a result, I usually have to explain what the Bible says is the "inner witness" of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:16) in those whom he has made a "new creature in Christ":

- Conviction of "sin, righteousness and judgment." (John 16:8)
- Illumination of God's Truth. (John 14:26; John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10-16)
- Strengthening in times of temptation and trial. (Ephesians 3:16; Ephesians 6:10; Philippians 2:13; Philippians 4:13; Romans 8:13)
- Comfort in seasons of sorrow and pain. (2 Corinthians 1:3-4)
- Transformation. (Romans 8:29; Galatians 5:22-23)
- Glorification of Christ within the heart and mind of the genuine believer. (John 16:14)

It isn't, then, mindless babbling, or convulsions, prostrate on the floor, or tingles, or warm fuzzies, or emotional hysteria, that marks the presence of the Holy Spirit within the genuinely born-again person. No, the supernatural work of God, His miraculous work, is what the Bible describes above, transforming a sin-loving, God-defying wretch into a "vessel, sanctified and meet for the Master's use and prepared unto every good work" (2 Timothy 2:21), a person in whom the beauty and excellence of Christ is clearly manifested (2 Corinthians 4:7-11; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Matthew 10:24-25).

 

[reddogs]

Hey All,
I don't want to interrupt your conversation reddogs and Tenchi. It's a good one. But John answers your question reddogs.

1 John 2:18-20 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

I will leave it at that. Please continue.

Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

Now you see how the saying "When in Rome, do as the Romans do", as they brought in all their pagan rites and rituals to say nothing of doctrine and 'traditions' in the church at Rome, and since most Christians gave it a pass, it spread.

 

[reddogs]

There are a number of things that can keep a genuinely born-again person from producing good spiritual "fruit":

- ignorance (lack of discipleship, personal study of God's word).
- powerfully-established habits/addictions.
- false teachers/teaching.
- strong, external resistance to Christian belief and practice (antagonism of family and friends to one's faith, cultural enmity toward Christianity, etc.).

An apple tree may be so young that it cannot yet bear fruit, but it is still an apple tree. An apple tree may be in poor soil, undernourished and poorly-watered, and so not bear fruit, but it is still an apple tree. And apple tree may be afflicted with damaging insect pests, or be rooted in toxic soil, and thus cannot bear fruit, but it is still an apple tree.

So, too, the born-again believer who is brand-new to the faith, or persistently ignorant of the contents of the Bible, or struggling against old habits and addictions, or has fallen prey to false teachers and teachings, or must bear sharp antagonism and suffering because of their faith. Under such difficulties, they may not bear much "fruit" (or any "fruit" at all) but they are still truly born-again. And so, though spiritual "fruit" is inevitable in a born-again believer (if they are not afflicted in the ways I've pointed out), such fruit must not be said to be necessary to being born-again.

There are, though, many, many people in the modern, western Church who are not born-again but think they are. Estimates by some pastors thirty-plus years ago were that 50% of people attending a Sunday morning worship service in North America were not actually saved. I think that percentage has risen sharply and is now likely around the 85% mark (or higher, even).

Though a genuinely born-again believer may end up in a pigpen of moral and spiritual compromise and sin, if they are truly born-again, they will look up from the filth and stench of the pigpen, at some point, and desire to return to their heavenly Father (Luke 15:11-32). Pigs never do, though; they are content to wallow in the foulness of their pen, never thinking to get out of it. This is one way in which genuine believers distinguish themselves from mere pretenders.

If I want to know if I'm dealing with a genuinely born-again person, I ask, "What is their direct, personal experience of God?". Most of the time, I get a long list of what they are doing for God. And so, I usually have to ask a couple of times what GOD is doing in, and to, and through them. Commonly, they aren't sure and are doubtful such a question is proper to ask. One lady even denied that God would do anything to her directly and discernibly and thinking He would was unbiblical! As a result, I usually have to explain what the Bible says is the "inner witness" of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:16) in those whom he has made a "new creature in Christ":

- Conviction of "sin, righteousness and judgment." (John 16:8)
- Illumination of God's Truth. (John 14:26; John 16:13; 1 Corinthians 2:10-16)
- Strengthening in times of temptation and trial. (Ephesians 3:16; Ephesians 6:10; Philippians 2:13; Philippians 4:13; Romans 8:13)
- Comfort in seasons of sorrow and pain. (2 Corinthians 1:3-4)
- Transformation. (Romans 8:29; Galatians 5:22-23)
- Glorification of Christ within the heart and mind of the genuine believer. (John 16:14)

It isn't, then, mindless babbling, or convulsions, prostrate on the floor, or tingles, or warm fuzzies, or emotional hysteria, that marks the presence of the Holy Spirit within the genuinely born-again person. No, the supernatural work of God, His miraculous work, is what the Bible describes above, transforming a sin-loving, God-defying wretch into a "vessel, sanctified and meet for the Master's use and prepared unto every good work" (2 Timothy 2:21), a person in whom the beauty and excellence of Christ is clearly manifested (2 Corinthians 4:7-11; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Matthew 10:24-25).

Many are carried away by these seducing doctrines which take them down a path which is wide and broad that leads to deception and not the straight and narrow to truth...
Ephesians 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;