Sin, Sickness, and the Medical System

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Great examples, Seagull. You're exactly right. Acts 10:38 is referring to the instances in which Jesus cast out demons and healed the possessed, such as the demoniac at Gerasenes, or the man whose demons identified themselves as "Legion" (wow, what a scary thought!). Luke 13:1-5 passage is another one that states that illness and ill fate are not the responsibilities of those who suffer them, but simply the result of this being a fallen world and tragedy being allowed to happen.

 

[lesjude]

Did Paul not have faith enough to be healed?

2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
2 Corinthians 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me

.http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=49191&p=750649#post750649

What do you think Jesus is telling us here about sin and circumstance?

Luke 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luke 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

People can die as a result of SIN. It is only God's mercy that more do not.

John chapter nine clearly tells us not to associate sin and illness, as several posters have pointed out very well.

We are His to be used as He sees fit;

No, Jesus did not say that at all nor did he correct His disciples on the sin causing sickness issue. He simply said that the parents nor the man were the sinners. Satan caused it not God. God healed to destroy Satan's work.

Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=49193&p=750659#post750659

Does the Lord still heal bodily, yes whomever He will.

Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

He promises to have compassion on His saints by healing them. Exodus 15:26, Exodus 23:25, Psalm 103:1-6, Psalm 107:20, 1 Peter 2:24, James 5:14-15 2 Corinthians 2:20 and Jesus healed ALL that came to Him and has not changed Hebrews 13:8.

This nonsense that if you just have faith enough you will be healed is not Biblical.
Jesus asked that the cup pass from him in the garden, did He not have faith?

No, Jesus only prayed "thy will be done" when He was struggling in His flesh with the agony of going to the cross. He knew God's will as the Son of God and the Son of Man but the flesh was struggling.
This is a far cry for the Bride of Christ coming in childlike assurance of faith knowing God's will to ask and receive healing, forgiveness of sin, daily provision, or any other positive promise of Father God.
Christians will have the same type of struggle when the Holy Spirit deals with the death of the self life. It can be VERY painful to deal with the things Jesus says are required of disciples:
Luke 14:25-27New King James Version (NKJV)

25 Now great multitudes went with Him. And He turned and said to them, 26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. 27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

If these things where true, some would never die, there would be no believing poor. The Word tells us to take care of the "true widow", if they had only had faith enough they wouldn't be in that shape?

No, the Bible does not promise no dying but health and healing while we are alive. A believer does NOT have to die sick. Moses and Aaron didn't. Be it to you according to your faith.

Cancer destroys a lot of flesh, but saves a lot of souls. Who's will is that?

It is Satan that gives cancer and kills. Please give scripture that cancer saves anyone. God provides healing. With your mindset God should save people, give them cancer to make them spiritual and then kill them. If God gave it to them why do they spend $1000 to get cured?

I have heard from many people that have been hurt by this untrue doctrine.

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=49100&highlight=
Sin is NOT the only reason Christians are sick or do not receive healing.

 

[RachelKeeth]

Lesjude, I am not offended but just so you know, you might want to be very careful on this subject because you could greatly hurt and offend those who are sick, especially those who have a chronic illness.

What you said about Satan causing sickness is wrong, the Lord is completely sovereign and nothing happened that He does not allow. There are also many reasons people are sick. I know people who are living in sin yet they are perfectly healthy, and I know Christians who are doing their best to serve the Lord yet are chronically ill. The Lord can use our sickness for His glory and our good though! With our sickness He can help us grow closer to Him in many ways, and we can help others due to the trials we have been through, and there are so many other ways He can use our illness for His good even if we can not always see why. The Lord is sovereign.

Also, there is nothing in the Bible about medicine being evil, of the devil, wrong, etc. Paul told Timothy to take some wine for his stomach. And Luke was a physician.

I have had a person that barely knows me come to me and tell me that my chronic illness must be caused by sin, but that is wrong to assume. We have no way of knowing why the Lord causes someone to be ill, and it is certainly not Satan causing it because he is not in control, the Lord is in control.

 

[farouk]

Lesjude, I am not offended but just so you know, you might want to be very careful on this subject because you could greatly hurt and offend those who are sick, especially those who have a chronic illness.

What you said about Satan causing sickness is wrong, the Lord is completely sovereign and nothing happened that He does not allow. There are also many reasons people are sick. I know people who are living in sin yet they are perfectly healthy, and I know Christians who are doing their best to serve the Lord yet are chronically ill. The Lord can use our sickness for His glory and our good though! With our sickness He can help us grow closer to Him in many ways, and we can help others due to the trials we have been through, and there are so many other ways He can use our illness for His good even if we can not always see why. The Lord is sovereign.

Also, there is nothing in the Bible about medicine being evil, of the devil, wrong, etc. Paul told Timothy to take some wine for his stomach. And Luke was a physician.

I have had a person that barely knows me come to me and tell me that my chronic illness must be caused by sin, but that is wrong to assume. We have no way of knowing why the Lord causes someone to be ill, and it is certainly not Satan causing it because he is not in control, the Lord is in control.

Rachel:

Very well stated.

Blessings.

 

[RachelKeeth]

Rachel:

Very well stated.

Blessings.

Thank you, Farouk!

 

[farouk]

Thank you, Farouk!

Rachel: You have a good way of putting it; I could see you as a schoolteacher at the Christian school, actually. But you must know your plans.

Blessings.

 

[RachelKeeth]

Rachel: You have a good way of putting it; I could see you as a schoolteacher at the Christian school, actually. But you must know your plans.

Blessings.

Well thank you, that is very kind of you! I know I have a lot left to learn but I do enjoy discussing what I believe and it is nice to know that I am improving in it.

 

[farouk]

Well thank you, that is very kind of you! I know I have a lot left to learn but I do enjoy discussing what I believe and it is nice to know that I am improving in it.

Rachel: Oh, YW; it's just that you'd probably need a college diploma, though. I've been around a while, so to speak, and there are young people with less of a capacity to reason carefully and respectfully than you evidently have. But you must know your plans. Anyway, I though the OP had some assumptions that are not sound. Blessings.

 

[lesjude]

Lesjude, I am not offended but just so you know, you might want to be very careful on this subject because you could greatly hurt and offend those who are sick, especially those who have a chronic illness.

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=49100&highlight=

What you said about Satan causing sickness is wrong, the Lord is completely sovereign and nothing happened that He does not allow.

You have just contradicted yourself. The truth is Satan causes sickness see Job 1 and 2 but God allows him to do it and is in control of how far he can go.

There are also many reasons people are sick.

Please see link above.

I know people who are living in sin yet they are perfectly healthy, and I know Christians who are doing their best to serve the Lord yet are chronically ill.

Jesus healed ALL that came to Him and has not changed. It is NOT from God's side they are chronically sick.

The Lord can use our sickness for His glory and our good though! With our sickness He can help us grow closer to Him in many ways, and we can help others due to the trials we have been through, and there are so many other ways He can use our illness for His good even if we can not always see why. The Lord is sovereign

.
Trials are the way to the Kingdom. However God ALWAYS heals/delivers when the purpose is accomplished.

Also, there is nothing in the Bible about medicine being evil, of the devil, wrong, etc. Paul told Timothy to take some wine for his stomach. And Luke was a physician.

You need to explain to me why you believe that Jesus gave His bride the third leading cause of death in the US ALL PREVENTABLE, to be stripped naked (the first thing they do) drugged (all are harmful to the body in ANY amount) and mutilated. If abortions are counted then they are by far #1 in cause of death.
Here are some things the Bible says:
Mark 5:25-26New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">25 </sup>Now a certain woman had a flow of blood for twelve years, <sup class="versenum">26 </sup>and had suffered many things from many physicians. She had spent all that she had and was no better, but rather grew worse.



2 Chronicles 16:12-13New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">12 </sup>And in the thirty-ninth year of his reign, Asa became diseased in his feet, and his malady was severe; yet in his disease he did not seek the Lord, but the physicians.
<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>So Asa rested with his fathers; he died in the forty-first year of his reign.
Here is a link for Luke and divine healing:http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=49099&highlight=
Here is one for Paul's thorn: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=49191&highlight=

Wine is not a drug that is considered an over the counter drug or a prescription drug then (used by the physicians and sorcerers) or now. It is recognized everywhere in Bible as a beverage i.e. food and was used as the beverage of choice for meals and weddings etc. Timothy may have had issues with bad water or even "different" water from traveling as happens even today. Wine would be a substitute for drinking so much unsafe water. Wine does NOTHING but make stomach issues WORSE but as a substitute for bad water telling him to drink it makes sense.

I have had a person that barely knows me come to me and tell me that my chronic illness must be caused by sin, but that is wrong to assume. We have no way of knowing why the Lord causes someone to be ill, and it is certainly not Satan causing it because he is not in control, the Lord is in control.

If I were you I would go before the Lord and find out if there is any truth in what she told you.
Again please read Job 1 and 2 which clearly shows that Satan causes sickness and all other evil but God allows it. Are you exercising Bible faith for your healing or just sitting back with the attitude thy will be done? The latter is NOT Bible faith for healing. Jesus wants you well and has provided it for you.
This link will help as well: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=49100&highlight=
And this one: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=49107&highlight=

 

[P31Woman]

If I were you I would go before the Lord and find out if there is any truth in what she told you.
Again please read Job 1 and 2 which clearly shows that Satan causes sickness and all other evil but God allows it. Are you exercising Bible faith for your healing or just sitting back with the attitude thy will be done? The latter is NOT Bible faith for healing. Jesus wants you well and has provided it for you.
This link will help as well: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=49100&highlight=
And this one: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=49107&highlight=

No such thing as praying for or exercising bible faith for healing.

 

[RachelKeeth]

If I were you I would go before the Lord and find out if there is any truth in what she told you.
Again please read Job 1 and 2 which clearly shows that Satan causes sickness and all other evil but God allows it. Are you exercising Bible faith for your healing or just sitting back with the attitude thy will be done? The latter is NOT Bible faith for healing. Jesus wants you well and has provided it for you.
This link will help as well: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=49100&highlight=
And this one: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=49107&highlight=

There are many faults in your above post and I do not have the time or energy to reply to the whole thing. And honestly I don't think it will help. Maybe you should read Charismatic Chaos by MacArthur.

1. I did not contradict myself. My point was that you can't just blame Satan for it. The Lord allowed it, it would not of happened if the Lord did not let it. It was the Lord's will for it to happen.

If it was the Lord's will for me to be healthy I would be healthy. He can do all things. If you say the Lord does not want people sick you are denying his sovereignty because what about the millions of people on earth who have cancer, Alzheimer's, have broken a bone, or even have a cold? If He wanted everyone well they would be well but He is in control and has a reason for sickness and all of our trials. What about the children who are born with downs syndrome, autism, deaf, or with epilepsy? Are you going to blame that on Satan even though it was the Lord's will for it to happen and he allowed it?

We are all in sin, just because my family has health problems does not mean we are in worse sin than anyone else. The Lord is helping my whole family grow from our chronic illnesses, He uses our trials for His good.

Maybe you should read Charismatic Chaos before you assume people are sick due to sin. I would feel sorry for you if you blame a cold or the development of a worse condition on Satan instead of using it as a time of growing closer to the Lord. Btw, I do believe the Lord can heal us because He is in control, but I do not believe in the "spiritual healing" that charismatics preach.

"Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing." (James 1:2-4 ESV)

"More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Romans 5:3-5 ESV

Those are just two verses about the Lord using our trials for good. I hope you will look at how offensive your words can be to those with illnesses, and maybe read the book I suggested.

 

[Mitspa]

It seems we have on this thread the great error of biblical ignorance confronting the great error of spiritual blindness?
We have one who attempts to seperate healing from God from the complete forgiveness of sins in Christ. Healing is based upon the forgivness of all sins! To bring "healing" out of the Light of the gospel is just to make "healing" a religious sideshow. God uses healing for the purpose of the Gospel, as a sign and witness of His power over sin.
Then we have those who claim that the bible is not true and that we are not empowered to heal the sick? That they are suffering for the gospel? none of you know the gospel nor do you know The Holy Spirit, for if you did?
" you would know the things freely given to us by God"

Insults directed toward other members edited out by staff. Do not accuse others of being ignorant or unbelieving of scripture.

 

[Free]

If I were you I would go before the Lord and find out if there is any truth in what she told you.
Again please read Job 1 and 2 which clearly shows that Satan causes sickness and all other evil but God allows it. Are you exercising Bible faith for your healing or just sitting back with the attitude thy will be done? The latter is NOT Bible faith for healing. Jesus wants you well and has provided it for you.
This link will help as well: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=49100&highlight=
And this one: http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=49107&highlight=

The bolded part is the most important thing. Jesus taught us that that is how we are to pray to the Father, so I do not see how one can set that against biblical faith, as though they are opposed. The simple fact is that sometimes God heals now, sometimes he heals later where some of those times will be in the next age. One simply cannot, and should not, go about saying that it is due to someone's lack of faith that they are not healed.

It should be said that God also works through the medical system and that is a legitimate way of having illness addressed and dealt with, showing no lack of faith in God.

As for sickness, one cannot say that it is all cause by Satan or sin. We are continually exposed to chemicals and waves of all sorts throughout each and every day, not to mention what we eat. There are any number of things that cause sickness and death apart from Satan and sin. It's just life in a fallen world.

 

[RachelKeeth]

The bolded part is the most important thing. Jesus taught us that that is how we are to pray to the Father, so I do not see how one can set that against biblical faith, as though they are opposed. The simple fact is that sometimes God heals now, sometimes he heals later where some of those times will be in the next age. One simply cannot, and should not, go about saying that it is due to someone's lack of faith that they are not healed.

It should be said that God also works through the medical system and that is a legitimate way of having illness addressed and dealt with, showing no lack of faith in God.

As for sickness, one cannot say that it is all cause by Satan or sin. We are continually exposed to chemicals and waves of all sorts throughout each and every day, not to mention what we eat. There are any number of things that cause sickness and death apart from Satan and sin. It's just life in a fallen world.

I completely agree, with everything!

 

[Deborah13]

Lesjude, I am not offended but just so you know, you might want to be very careful on this subject because you could greatly hurt and offend those who are sick, especially those who have a chronic illness.

What you said about Satan causing sickness is wrong, the Lord is completely sovereign and nothing happened that He does not allow. There are also many reasons people are sick. I know people who are living in sin yet they are perfectly healthy, and I know Christians who are doing their best to serve the Lord yet are chronically ill. The Lord can use our sickness for His glory and our good though! With our sickness He can help us grow closer to Him in many ways, and we can help others due to the trials we have been through, and there are so many other ways He can use our illness for His good even if we can not always see why. The Lord is sovereign.

Also, there is nothing in the Bible about medicine being evil, of the devil, wrong, etc. Paul told Timothy to take some wine for his stomach. And Luke was a physician.

I have had a person that barely knows me come to me and tell me that my chronic illness must be caused by sin, but that is wrong to assume. We have no way of knowing why the Lord causes someone to be ill, and it is certainly not Satan causing it because he is not in control, the Lord is in control.

When did sin enter the world? When did sickness enter the world?

Is it God's will that man be sinful? Is it God's will that man be sick?

Jesus blood was shed for our sin and our sickness. If one is saved by grace through faith in the shed blood of Jesus surely he can be made well by this same grace through faith in the shed blood of Jesus.

"By His stripes ye WERE healed."

 

[RachelKeeth]

When did sin enter the world? When did sickness enter the world?

Is it God's will that man be sinful? Is it God's will that man be sick?

Jesus blood was shed for our sin and our sickness. If one is saved by grace through faith in the shed blood of Jesus surely he can be made well by this same grace through faith in the shed blood of Jesus.

"By His stripes ye WERE healed."

A lot of things changed when sin came into the world. By following your logic when a woman gives birth she should only have labor pains if she is living in sin.

Things are nothing like they were originally supposed to be. That does not mean that it can't be the Lord's will to use sickness for our good and His glory. When we are weak we are made strong by Him. When we go through trials we lean closer to Him. So yes, if someone is sick it is the Lord's will. If it was not the Lord's will they would not be sick, and saying anything other than that is denying that He has absolute sovereignty.

Yes, we can be made well by the Lord, but only if it is His will.

 

[farouk]

A lot of things changed when sin came into the world. By following your logic when a woman gives birth she should only have labor pains if she is living in sin.

Things are nothing like they were originally supposed to be. That does not mean that it can't be the Lord's will to use sickness for our good and His glory. When we are weak we are made strong by Him. When we go through trials we lean closer to Him. So yes, if someone is sick it is the Lord's will. If it was not the Lord's will they would not be sick, and saying anything other than that is denying that He has absolute sovereignty.

Yes, we can be made well by the Lord, but only if it is His will.

Rachel:

Yes, I agree pretty well with most of what you say; just to add as well that some young people feel called of God to go into medicine and alleviate suffering and this also gives them opportunities for the Gospel, too.

Blessings.

 

[RachelKeeth]

Rachel:

Yes, I agree pretty well with most of what you say; just to add as well that some young people feel called of God to go into medicine and alleviate suffering and this also gives them opportunities for the Gospel, too.

Blessings.

Yes! Actually one of my best friends is currently trying to become a nurse for this reason. I on the other hand do not do so well with flesh injuries with blood. I usually don't have a problem with just seeing blood but if I see an injury with blood I do not do so well.

 

[farouk]

Yes! Actually one of my best friends is currently trying to become a nurse for this reason. I on the other hand do not do so well with flesh injuries with blood. I usually don't have a problem with just seeing blood but if I see an injury with blood I do not do so well.

Rachel: yes, well, you need to have an aptitude for such work, ideally, anyway. Like if a person faints at the sight of blood (not saying you do), then maybe better not to work at a clinic; or if you can't stand seeing ears pierced, don't work at Claire's! etc.

Blessings.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Rachel:

Yes, I agree pretty well with most of what you say; just to add as well that some young people feel called of God to go into medicine and alleviate suffering and this also gives them opportunities for the Gospel, too.

Blessings.

I agree that we are healed if it is Gods' will.

But there are different types of medicine.

There is organic natural medicine and there is witch doctor medicine.

If a doctor said that he needed to inject poison into my veins (chemotherapy), I would tell him, "begone satan"!