Sin, Sickness, and the Medical System

[lesjude]

I know what would be helpful to me to understand what you believe, as well as others I believe, would be to take the scriptures that you are using and explain what you interpret them as saying. Listing scripture and giving a short statement just doesn't do it for me. I still don't understand. And as I was most graciously corrected in another thread tonight, I need to ask and give you a chance to explain your beliefs and not to assume or jump to conclusions. Would you do this please in simple terms as possible? Thank you.

I am not sure what you want me to address. If it is sin and sickness it is quite simple. If one sins willfully God is under no obligation to give repentance Acts 5:1-11.

If all of His other measures fail to bring correction sickness is the last resort Hebrews 12:3-11 with 1 Corinthians 1:10-17, 1 Corinthians 3:1-4, 1 Corinthians 10:14-22 culminating in 1 Corinthians 11 :27-34 with the result of all these sins and others stated in 1 Corinthians 11:30. Note verse 30 in the context of the rest of 27-34. It clearly refers to more than one type of sin.

1 Corinthians 5:1-8 is a separate issue but clearly states sickness and death can be the result of sin. However God granted repentance.

Here is a VERY clear statement on the issue:
John 5:16-17
New King James Version (NKJV)
<sup class="versenum">16 </sup>If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

Grace does NOT exempt Christians from obedience or chastening to bring correction IF they are sons.

 

[farouk]

I am not sure what you want me to address. If it is sin and sickness it is quite simple. If one sins willfully God is under no obligation to give repentance Acts 5:1-11.

...

Are you saying that using a medical doctor when a person is sick, is a willful sin which God may not give repentance for?

 

[lesjude]

Are you saying that using a medical doctor when a person is sick, is a willful sin which God may not give repentance for?

Of course NOT. God is under no obligation to grant forgiveness for ANY willful sin which does not mean He will not. I have burned all my medical bridges long ago and have lived and seen 35 years of God's tender care of ourselves, our family, and many others. It is not even a consideration for me to go to the medical system and would be gross unfaithfulness on my part. As they say, there it is.

 

[farouk]

Of course NOT. God is under no obligation to grant forgiveness for ANY willful sin which does not mean He will not. I have burned all my medical bridges long ago and have lived and seen 35 years of God's tender care of ourselves, our family, and many others. It is not even a consideration for me to go to the medical system and would be gross unfaithfulness on my part. As they say, there it is.

Oh. Thank-you for your answer, anyway.

So if your kids are or were seriously ill, you wouldn't take them to the doctor?

 

[lesjude]

Oh. Thank-you for your answer, anyway.

So if your kids are or were seriously ill, you wouldn't take them to the doctor?

We have gone to the Physician we live closest to for everything for 35 years including the birth of 5 of our 7 grown children. "Serious" is no issue for Jesus. If you have read "Our Testimony/Normal Christianity" it will give a few examples. I realize few see this as "normal". As I have said medical mind control is a VERY powerful demon.

 

[farouk]

Lesjude: So for example, according to your view, would cancer be so un-serious, or irrelevant to medicine, that this too would not be reason to go to a doctor?

 

[lesjude]

Lesjude: So for example, according to your view, would cancer be so un-serious, or irrelevant to medicine, that this too would not be reason to go to a doctor?

Yes, in my view. We have prayed for 3 people who were healed by Jesus of terminal cancer to the amazement of their doctors. FYI the cure rate for cancer since "war" on it was declared by President Nixon in '71 is the same now as it was then. It seems there is some evidence that the same corporations that produce chemo drugs also make many of the chemicals that cause them. Quite an interesting business plan if verified. Oh well....

 

[Deborah13]

I am not sure what you want me to address. If it is sin and sickness it is quite simple. If one sins willfully God is under no obligation to give repentance Acts 5:1-11.

If all of His other measures fail to bring correction sickness is the last resort Hebrews 12:3-11 with 1 Corinthians 1:10-17, 1 Corinthians 3:1-4, 1 Corinthians 10:14-22 culminating in 1 Corinthians 11 :27-34 with the result of all these sins and others stated in 1 Corinthians 11:30. Note verse 30 in the context of the rest of 27-34. It clearly refers to more than one type of sin.

1 Corinthians 5:1-8 is a separate issue but clearly states sickness and death can be the result of sin. However God granted repentance.

Here is a VERY clear statement on the issue:
John 5:16-17
New King James Version (NKJV)
<sup class="versenum">16 </sup>If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

Grace does NOT exempt Christians from obedience or chastening to bring correction IF they are sons.

You have still failed to give YOUR interpretation of all the scriptures you have cited. I have read them and know what my interpretation is but I will not try to figure out YOUR"S and give them to you for you to tell me if I have understood the way YOU think.
So in my opinion I do not see you as an instructor in the Word but more as a Psychlogist that plays the what do you think game. You have left me with no way to respond to your theology.

 

[Mitspa]

No, to all three. I have not taken anything out of context when I gave you 1 and 2 Corinthians, Acts 5, and Matthew 7:21-27 in regard to sin and sickness/death. You choose to discount what these scriptures say to make me into a legalist. Have at it.

Well again I do not accept your understanding of those scirptures you have taken them out of the light of the gospel and made them death to others.
So you say "sin" is not a transgression of the law of moses?
You do understand that most of those you are trying to "help" understand healing do IN FACT see "sin" as a transgression of the law? So again I make the point that you are not teaching NEW Covenant healing but are just adding to their confussion. If you really understood healing you would understand that a "believer" has complete legal right based upon the sinless Blood and broken Body of Christ.
We are healed because we have no sin against us!
"Sin" for the believer is walking contrary to the Spirit (the law written upon the heart) Teach them to walk in agreement with the spirit and they will accept healing as a part of being a Christian.
let me say it this way? if you really know you are healed? you know that healing is based upon COMPLETE forgivness you have in Christ.
Now I say that because some do not see God heal all they pray for? They start looking for an excuse as to why? Then they find a few scriptures and take them out of the Light of gospel, and start making up reason why its not working like they think it should. Its all false doctrine, and it helps no one!

No! go lay the sure foundations! Then healing is as natural as eating from the Tree of Life.

 

[Mitspa]

You have still failed to give YOUR interpretation of all the scriptures you have cited. I have read them and know what my interpretation is but I will not try to figure out YOUR"S and give them to you for you to tell me if I have understood the way YOU think.
So in my opinion I do not see you as an instructor in the Word but more as a Psychlogist that plays the what do you think game. You have left me with no way to respond to your theology.

Yes Deb, I agree with your points.
I am trying to understand how one who claims to promote healing is ready to use any scripture "out of context" to disqualify those they claim should believe?
"The letter kills but the Spirit GIVES life"
It is very interesting to see all the doctrines that are produced apart from the light of the gospel?
All the promises of God are yes and amen, IN HIM!
when we see a doctrine that attempts to break this relationship and our position IN HIM, we know "the spirit of error" is at work.

Blessings upon all who have died with Him and live IN HIM. -Mitspa

 

[Deborah13]

Yes Deb, I agree with your points.
I am trying to understand how one who claims to promote healing is ready to use any scripture "out of context" to disqualify those they claim should believe?
"The letter kills but the Spirit GIVES life"
It is very interesting to see all the doctrines that are produced apart from the light of the gospel?
All the promises of God are yes and amen, IN HIM!
when we see a doctrine that attempts to break this relationship and our position IN HIM, we know "the spirit of error" is at work.

Blessings upon all who have died with Him and live IN HIM. -Mitspa

Yes, and when one seems to go back and forth with what they say they teach how can they be taken seriously, especially when they are so insistant that they are correct.
All three questions you asked were answered with ( NO ) and yet that does not seem that answer was consistent with their teaching. When asked to clarify their answers it still appears to me to be unclear.
To tell a believer who is saved by grace through faith that they do not qualify to receive healing from the Healer is like signing a sickness, death warrant for them. Not just for faith for physical healing but could damage their view of the nature of their loving Savior and what He did at the cross for them.
Just my view of things.

 

[iLOVE]

Sometimes God will heal you, sometimes He will use others to heal you, and sometimes He will use a symbol of a bronze snake to heal you! This is how the Great I Am gets His glory!

 

[lesjude]

Sometimes God will heal you, sometimes He will use others to heal you, and sometimes He will use a symbol of a bronze snake to heal you! This is how the Great I Am gets His glory!

The bronze snake became an idol and had to be destroyed. It was a type of Christ. You will notice God did not take away the fiery serpents, but provided healing. Also note that only those with faith and obedience to look at the bronze serpent alone were healed.

 

[Deborah13]

Yes Deb, I agree with your points.
I am trying to understand how one who claims to promote healing is ready to use any scripture "out of context" to disqualify those they claim should believe?
"The letter kills but the Spirit GIVES life"
It is very interesting to see all the doctrines that are produced apart from the light of the gospel?
All the promises of God are yes and amen, IN HIM!
when we see a doctrine that attempts to break this relationship and our position IN HIM, we know "the spirit of error" is at work.

Blessings upon all who have died with Him and live IN HIM. -Mitspa

lesjude seems to think I am WoF because a posted 2 Corinth. 5:21 which makes me wonder what he would think if I posted Romans 4:1-8
I am not WoF. I am GotG- Gospel of the Grace - the almost too good to be true news AND
That DOESN"T mean you can just run round sinning and expect to get away with it, there are consequences for sin.

Our Father wants us to be in good health, fit to deliver the Gospel of Jesus Christ, fit to go where He tells us to.
Our Father loves us and it is not His perfect will for us to be sick.
He forgives our sin based on what Jesus did at the cross.
We can be in rightstanding with Him only because of what Jesus did at the cross.
He heals our sickness based only on what Jesus did at the cross.

 

[Mitspa]

The bronze snake became an idol and had to be destroyed. It was a type of Christ. You will notice God did not take away the fiery serpents, but provided healing. Also note that only those with faith and obedience to look at the bronze serpent alone were healed.

The bronze serpent represented the "sin in the flesh" being judged in the body of Christ. For He became sin that we might be made the righteousness of God In Him.
The point and truth of that type was to see THE BODY of Christ as having been judged for us who look to Him.
It was in fact "sin" being judged on His Cross.
So again until one understands the Body of the Lord they should not try to teach others about reasons that some become sick or are not healed! One needs to learn the gospel and then heal and teach from its light.

 

[Mitspa]

lesjude seems to think I am WoF because a posted 2 Corinth. 5:21 which makes me wonder what he would think if I posted Romans 4:1-8
I am not WoF. I am GotG- Gospel of the Grace - the almost too good to be true news AND
That DOESN"T mean you can just run round sinning and expect to get away with it, there are consequences for sin.

Our Father wants us to be in good health, fit to deliver the Gospel of Jesus Christ, fit to go where He tells us to.
Our Father loves us and it is not His perfect will for us to be sick.
He forgives our sin based on what Jesus did at the cross.
We can be in rightstanding with Him only because of what Jesus did at the cross.
He heals our sickness based only on what Jesus did at the cross.

Who wants to sin? No one who is looking to Christ and His Glory!
Those who have this focus upon sin are in some part still under law? "For the strength of sin is the law" and the law produces evil desires in their flesh. Because they have these desires they cannot understand that grace free us from these lust! The legalistic mind is a carnal mind that has the veil of the flesh as a witness against the truth of who they are in Christ.
"As He is, so are we in this world" is far from their understanding. The flesh blinds them to who they are in spirit.
The law points to the flesh, grace empowers the spirit!

 

[lesjude]

The bronze serpent represented the "sin in the flesh" being judged in the body of Christ. For He became sin that we might be made the righteousness of God In Him.
The point and truth of that type was to see THE BODY of Christ as having been judged for us who look to Him.
It was in fact "sin" being judged on His Cross.
So again until one understands the Body of the Lord they should not try to teach others about reasons that some become sick or are not healed! One needs to learn the gospel and then heal and teach from its light.

Isaiah 53:4-5

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">4 </sup>Surely He has borne our sicknesses
And carried our pains;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
<sup class="versenum">5 </sup>But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.

 

[Mitspa]

Isaiah 53:4-5

New King James Version (NKJV)

<sup class="versenum">4 </sup>Surely He has borne our sicknesses
And carried our pains;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
<sup class="versenum">5 </sup>But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.

Amen and again I say that the reason the church has failed to receive healing by those stripes is because of the law being laid upon their hearts and minds, blinding them to the truth of His Work. So again I say the issue in teaching healing unto the believer is not to point sin, but to minister righteousness.
This goes back to the issues I have with your doctrines that work contrary to the Truth of the gospel. To teach healing apart from the righteousness that is its legal foundation, is to teach doctrines of error.

 

[lesjude]

Amen and again I say that the reason the church has failed to receive healing by those stripes is because of the law being laid upon their hearts and minds, blinding them to the truth of His Work. So again I say the issue in teaching healing unto the believer is not to point sin, but to minister righteousness.
This goes back to the issues I have with your doctrines that work contrary to the Truth of the gospel. To teach healing apart from the righteousness that is its legal foundation, is to teach doctrines of error.

Righteousness is NEVER imputed to anyone apart from Faith. Faith acts just as Abraham did. Righteousness is finding out God's will and DOING IT by grace through faith. It begins by repentance and receiving Christ and then is a walk of holiness and obedience by grace through faith. The Bible teaches nothing else. I have never taught healing apart from righteousness. However we have seen the unsaved healed and delivered. Jesus did it for the same types often.

 

[lesjude]

Who wants to sin? No one who is looking to Christ and His Glory!
Those who have this focus upon sin are in some part still under law? "For the strength of sin is the law" and the law produces evil desires in their flesh. Because they have these desires they cannot understand that grace free us from these lust! The legalistic mind is a carnal mind that has the veil of the flesh as a witness against the truth of who they are in Christ.
"As He is, so are we in this world" is far from their understanding. The flesh blinds them to who they are in spirit.
The law points to the flesh, grace empowers the spirit!

The gentiles were NEVER under bondage to the law. They were/are under bondage to the lies of paganism like xmas and easter, their culture which worships medical science, the cult of nationalism, and education to name just three things, materialism and indebtedness, humanism i.e. freedom, democracy, man the measure of all things, and doctrines of religion. They are children of God but are bound to those things I have listed that prevent them from walking in mature sonship. They have it all but refuse to believe it. Very sad.