The gift of healing

[Dave...]

So , you would separate the gifts of the Holy Spirit into categories ? Sign gifts and just what is the other categorie(s) ?
Cessation always seems to make up it's own rules , oddly enough .
I don't see the bible making a distinction , it just says gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1Cor12 . I don't see the word sign .

Hi Hawk. I did post scripture with the word 'sign' speaking of specific gifts. Quite a few actually. You'll have to refer to my previous posts. And as I stated already in the OP, the Apostles were listed as part of the Church in that day also (1 Cor. 12 below). There are no longer apostles. Remember, the sign of the apostles, right? The reason for the sign had passed long ago.

Remember, the Jews always wanted a sign, so God gave them signs, these were signs of Judgment. These signs ushered in many things. One was that the Gentiles were grafted in. That was the jews judgment, and our blessing. It was official at the birth of the Church. Remember Peters reaction in Acts? Salvation has come to the Gentiles also (also see Romans 11:11-12). Tongues, or languages were also a sign of Judgement on many layers. Undoing the confusion set by God that was the judgment from the tower of Babel when He confused their languages. At the birth of the Church, the stage was being set for the gospel to go everywhere. A lot of things were happening. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit was an answer to Jesus' prayer that we would all be one. We are all placed into the body through that baptism. Lots of stuff happening there.

Just because there were benefits beyond the primary purpose, doesn't mean that the extras stay when the sign is no longer needed. A person can pray for it, even asking other to do the same, but ultimately, it's God's will be done. There is no promise or guarantee of heath in exchange for a "pure faith". This is the faith healers redefining it as was stated in the OP.

The non sign gifts that are still operational today is this. Anything good that come from us is an undeserved gift from God. Teaching, praying sweeping the church front step, it's from the Holy Spirit, a gift from God, as this scripture below that you posted states. It's not a magic list. If it's from God, it's a gift.

1 Cor. 12:28-29 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?

Dave

 

[hawkman]

The non sign gifts that are still operational today is this. Anything good that come from us is an undeserved gift from God. Teaching, praying sweeping the church front step, it's from the Holy Spirit, a gift from God, as this scripture below that you posted states. It's not a magic list. If it's from God, it's a gift.

Since I am 100% sure the gift of tongues and a gift of word of knowledge is still in evidence today why would I say any other gift of the Holy Spirt is no longer active ? Because we don't observe evidence of a gift of the Holy Spirit does not mean it is no longer in operation in the world today .

 

[Dave...]

Since I am 100% sure the gift of tongues and a gift of word of knowledge is still in evidence today why would I say any other gift of the Holy Spirt is no longer active ? Because we don't observe evidence of a gift of the Holy Spirit does not mean it is no longer in operation in the world today .

Hawk

Your argumentation is a bit of a straw man. I've been meaning to say it, but was hoping it would stop from both of you before I had to.

When someone is making the claims that they are, all Christians have a right and are encouraged, expected, and obligated to test it to Scripture by Scripture. The Bereans tested what Paul had said to the OT, and He commended them for it. He's an Apostle. And of course, it helps if it's actually happening. Test all things, and hold onto what is good.

Why? Because peoples lives are being destroyed, for one. Peoples faith is being destroyed. That's reason enough.

I'm starting a thread on tongues eventually, when I get around to it. I'll try to post more on the judgment aspect of it with Biblical context.

BTW, word of knowledge, I'm guessing is the gift of prophecy? I'll start a thread on that too. It just means speaking before. Not in time, but before people. There was a revelatory aspect to it when the Bible, the NT was being written. Prophecy today just means sharing the Bible, or the Gospel as we all know it. That's the gift of prophecy today. If God was giving new revelation, it should be added to the Bible. He's not, and we have the faith once for all delivered.

Dave

It's old but

A question for those who claim tongues for today.

Apart from the primary purpose of tongues, which Paul said was to be a sign to unbelievers (Jews), the secondary uses ( which were necessary so God would not be the author of confusion while the sign was being given ) for tongues serve no benefit above and beyond that which we all can accomplish...

christianforums.net

 

[hawkman]

BTW, word of knowledge, I'm guessing is the gift of prophecy? I'll start a thread on that too. It just means speaking before. Not in time, but before people. There was a revelatory aspect to it when the Bible, the NT was being written. Prophecy today just means sharing the Bible, or the Gospel as we all know it. That's the gift of prophecy today. If God was giving new revelation, it should be added to the Bible. He's not, and we have the faith once for all delivered.

Knowledge for the here and now that had to come from God . It can come through a dream or a word given . Example below .
I was shown in a dream a man I had never seen before sitting up in bed and next to him was someone covered completely in the bed . I was there to pray for them and comfort them but I could tell the man was ok so it was the person covered up in bed that need the prayer more .
The very next day a member on a Christian forum that I am on changed his avatar to a picture of himself and there he was , much to my shock , the unknown man in my dream ! I contacted him and told him about the dream , he then told me his wife had recently lost a relative she was very close to and it had hit her very hard .

 

[Dave...]

Knowledge for the here and now that had to come from God . It can come through a dream or a word given . Example below .
I was shown in a dream a man I had never seen before sitting up in bed and next to him was someone covered completely in the bed . I was there to pray for them and comfort them but I could tell the man was ok so it was the person covered up in bed that need the prayer more .
The very next day a member on a Christian forum that I am on changed his avatar to a picture of himself and there he was , much to my shock , the unknown man in my dream ! I contacted him and told him about the dream , he then told me his wife had recently lost a relative she was very close to and it had hit her very hard .

Hi Hawk

I didn't see a point in it. Also, it's unverifiable. Muslims and Hindus make the same claims. They have all the same experiences and feel just a strongly about them as you do. All that does is validify them in their false religions. Nothing gained. But much can be lost. This is why those things mean nothing to me.

You might want to read Jeremiah 23:16-30 for a different perspective. There are lines that shouldn't be crossed. The "Oracles of God" in the OT was new revelation. The oracles of God in the NT is speaking of the OT, not new revelation (1 Peter 4:10-11). At a glance it may sound like a miraculous gift of new revelation, but it's not. Today, when we as Christians quote scripture, we are quoting, or speaking the oracles of God, Both NT and OT.

I just wanted to add, look at this verse in 1 Corinthians. The "gifts of healings" is plural and separate from "miracles". Interesting, right?

1 Cor. 12:28-29 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?

Dave

 

[Christ_empowered]

When my grandfather was on his deathbed in his early 80s, my great uncle visited him anointed him with oil and prayed for healing. He bounced back and was healthy and of sound mind until he died in his late eighties. And so…

I believe God heals. I also believe that God heals not our faith or the individual who prays over us. And…

Physical healing is amazing but temporary. Scripture tells us that life is fleeting. In my grandfather’s life I hope he used his time on earth after being healed to get closer to Jesus Christ and prepare for the end of his life on earth.

 

[Dave...]

Hey C

Amen.

We all have a right to call out to God in prayer for these things. And sometimes He answers it. Mostly through providence (non miraculous means), and sometimes even by a miracle. But ultimately, it's only temporary. The healing in the atonement happens after we die. Imagine having a body the way God had originally intended before the fall, with no flaws that can never die. As we are all spiritually resurrected in Christ now, the physical part comes after we die and are physically resurrected.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

Just wanted to add another problem that I see with this idea about a "pure faith" that the faith healers require. That would mean that children who are incapable of coming to a saving faith are either all disqualified, or, that qualification doesn't apply and all are qualified. If the latter were true, that would mean that every child should be healed by the faith healers.

Dave