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Sins of the flesh

P

paulo75

Guest
Not sure where to post this, but I have a hypothetical question.

Let's suppose we have two guys, Gary and Bob. Gary has accepted Christ into his life, but, much like King David, his suffers from sins of the flesh, so Gary hasn't been faithful to his wife.

Bob, on the other hand, has been faithful to his wife his entire life. However, while he may believe in God, he has not accepted Jesus.

Who goes to Heaven?
 
Gary goes to heaven. Why, because there is only one way and that is through Jesus Christ. He is the way, truth, and life.



Peace, Golfjack
 
paulo75 said:
Not sure where to post this, but I have a hypothetical question.

Let's suppose we have two guys, Gary and Bob. Gary has accepted Christ into his life, but, much like King David, his suffers from sins of the flesh, so Gary hasn't been faithful to his wife.

Bob, on the other hand, has been faithful to his wife his entire life. However, while he may believe in God, he has not accepted Jesus.

Who goes to Heaven?

What is not told above is that Bob is planning to be a suicide bomber and kill many children in the local school district. At least he does not cheat on his wife. Of course Bob thinks he has earned his salvation because he does not cheat on his wife.

On the other hand, Gary eventually repents of his sin and returns to his broken family and wife. He must life the rest of his life with this failure. He definately learns spiritual humitity and knows what he deserves--->eternal damnation. He is so grateful for the grace of God that he never again cheats on his wife.
 
paulo75 said:
Not sure where to post this, but I have a hypothetical question.

Let's suppose we have two guys, Gary and Bob. Gary has accepted Christ into his life, but, much like King David, his suffers from sins of the flesh, so Gary hasn't been faithful to his wife.

Bob, on the other hand, has been faithful to his wife his entire life. However, while he may believe in God, he has not accepted Jesus.

Who goes to Heaven?

I don't think there is enough information known to pronounce a declaration on where they are in the after life.

If it is the same story as the prodigal(father)son I think it would be more clear. The brother wasted the inheritance but repented and came back, the older son obeyed the law but never gave his heart. If this man gave his heart to God it's possible for him to be "saved" through Jesus even if he didn't know him. Gary must continue to allow God s grace to move him to not sinning in this way and if he messes up again he will have to ask forgiveness...so there are alot of factors
 
mondar said:
What is not told above is that Bob is planning to be a suicide bomber and kill many children in the local school district. At least he does not cheat on his wife. Of course Bob thinks he has earned his salvation because he does not cheat on his wife.

On the other hand, Gary eventually repents of his sin and returns to his broken family and wife. He must life the rest of his life with this failure. He definately learns spiritual humitity and knows what he deserves--->eternal damnation. He is so grateful for the grace of God that he never again cheats on his wife.

Interesting. Am I to believe that if one does not accept Jesus into their lives, they become a suicide bomber or something similar, while the one who accepts Jesus never cheats on his wife?

:roll:

Many people have died thinking they were executing the will of God (Jesus) while killing others in cold blood, while still others became apostate after accepting the Lord...

Accepting Jesus 20 years ago is not the same thing as accepting Him TODAY. Today is the only thing that matters. How am I with God today?

As Biblecatholic said, there is not enough info here. "Accepting Jesus as one's Lord and Savior" is not enough to enter the Kingdom. That formula is not even FOUND within the Scriptures...

Now, if you say "faith working in love", you might have something there.

Regards
 
mondar said:
On the other hand, Gary eventually repents of his sin and returns to his broken family and wife.

And if Gary never tells his wife?
 
Golfjack says that there is only one way for man to enter heaven and that is through Christ - and I agree. But as for saying that one or the other or even both will or will not go there is not up to unrighteous man to judge.
 
francisdesales said:
Interesting. Am I to believe that if one does not accept Jesus into their lives, they become a suicide bomber or something similar, while the one who accepts Jesus never cheats on his wife?

:roll:

Many people have died thinking they were executing the will of God (Jesus) while killing others in cold blood, while still others became apostate after accepting the Lord...

Accepting Jesus 20 years ago is not the same thing as accepting Him TODAY. Today is the only thing that matters. How am I with God today?

As Biblecatholic said, there is not enough info here. "Accepting Jesus as one's Lord and Savior" is not enough to enter the Kingdom. That formula is not even FOUND within the Scriptures...

Now, if you say "faith working in love", you might have something there.

Regards

Of course the suicide bomber that blew up the local school district also kept a few children alive to later torture. He is a sadist. When the law finally caught up with him, he killed a few policemen. After a long life of crime and violence, he finally received last rights and went to heaven because he was baptized Catholic.
 
paul75,
Sounds like the I have a friend story. Stop cheating on your wife if you are Gary. And accept Jesus as your savior first if you are Bob.


One needs to repent, the other has not yet reached the point that he will receive eternal life regardless of how good he is.:)
 
mondar said:
Of course the suicide bomber that blew up the local school district also kept a few children alive to later torture. He is a sadist. When the law finally caught up with him, he killed a few policemen. After a long life of crime and violence, he finally received last rights and went to heaven because he was baptized Catholic.
Praise God for putting to use James ch 5 in your scenario. It's good to see him accepting Jesus as Lord ans Savior on his death bed by asking for the anointing, and it's good to see he repented so his baptism wasn't wasted. It would be a bummer to be in baptized in Christ and still go to hell...
 
Not sure where to post this, but I have a hypothetical question.

Let's suppose we have two guys, Gary and Bob. Gary has accepted Christ into his life, but, much like King David, his suffers from sins of the flesh, so Gary hasn't been faithful to his wife.

Bob, on the other hand, has been faithful to his wife his entire life. However, while he may believe in God, he has not accepted Jesus.

Who goes to Heaven?

Well hopefully that's not the end of the story! We would trust that Jesus who abides by the Spirit in Gary will prompt Gary's conscience until he can't stand it, lest Gary develop a calloused conscience and fall from grace. And we hope that Romans 1 holds out for Bob that he would see that his morals must amount to something in light of the ever present evidence that God is real and that he must escape God's wrath on all sinners.

But lets imagine two different twists/continuances of your current scenario where Bob and Gary meet:

Good outcome:

Bob meets Gary one day at the book store and sees him looking in the Bible section. Bob, curious, walks over and strikes up a conversation with Gary about whether or not he really believes that tired religious stuff. Gary witnesses to him and in the process begins to tell Bob his life story. They both find that they have much in common, including past hurts and tragedies, and they begin to have a very deep discussion. They soon find themselves confessing more initimate details of their life to one another, and in a moment of honesty by Gary, Bob finds out Gary has recently been an unfaithful husband. But with the broken humbleness with which Gary suddenly realizes the results of his actions as he was witnessing (as burdened by the Spirit), he confesses in front of Bob that he has been wrong and sinful against God and is in need of a Savior even more than ever. Bob is touched and dumbfounded, and seeing the sincerity and humbleness in Gary and the beauty and simplicity of the Gospel: Bob becomes saved. Gary makes up with his wife and Bob and Gary become life long friends, brothers in the faith, edifying one another and fight the good fight to the very end.

Bad outcome:

Bob and Gary meet one day at a coffee shop and Bob sees Gary reading a Christian magazine and sits down near him, sipping a mocha frappe, and asks him if he really believes in that "tired religious stuff". Gary begins to talk with Bob and they begin to discuss Christian morals and in the process Gary becomes increasingly defensive. Gary at one point says snidely, in a momentary sense of superiority, how Christian marriages are more blessed and enjoyable than an unbelievers marriage could possibly be. Then Bob having a moment of whit notices that Gary, amidst his unfaithful excursions, has taken off his wedding ring (having dropped it in his pocket so the 'girlfriend' wouldn't see), so Bob retorts, "If Christian's marriages are so great then why don't you have your wedding ring on?" Gary turns red with anger, slaps his magazine closed, calls the man a unregenerate heathen, and storms out the coffee shop. Bob goes on to believe all Christian men are concieted and was offended by the flaunting of "moral superiority", and develops a bitterness in his heart against Christ and the Church ("and all that hogwash"). Gary goes on down his self-righteous, inconsiderate, selfish path of hedonism and suffers shipwreck of his marriage and his faith, having nothing left he becomes a homeless alcoholic, despondent and regretful.

-------------------------------------------------------

Which one is more likely to happen in today's society? How can we learn from the possible reactions and interactions between Bob and Gary? It seems both have the same propensity to wind up in the same place, depending on whether they will just be real with each other and God, or if they will rather both continue in self-conciet and pride of the flesh.

This is your life, you choose the outcome.

God Bless,

~Josh
 
mondar said:
Of course the suicide bomber that blew up the local school district also kept a few children alive to later torture. He is a sadist. When the law finally caught up with him, he killed a few policemen. After a long life of crime and violence, he finally received last rights and went to heaven because he was baptized Catholic.

Are you saying that God cannot forgive this man, if he asks God for forgiveness?

I was under the impression that God can and will forgive ANY sins, as long as the repentance is sincere.

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
mondar said:
Of course the suicide bomber that blew up the local school district also kept a few children alive to later torture. He is a sadist. When the law finally caught up with him, he killed a few policemen. After a long life of crime and violence, he finally received last rights and went to heaven because he was baptized Catholic.

Are you saying that God cannot forgive this man, if he asks God for forgiveness?

I was under the impression that God can and will forgive ANY sins, as long as the repentance is sincere.

Regards
God can forgive anyone he pleases, but he did not forgive this man because he did not come by faith. His faith was in his his baptism, not the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
 
mondar said:
God can forgive anyone he pleases, but he did not forgive this man because he did not come by faith. His faith was in his his baptism, not the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

Faith in baptism presumes faith in Christ, because baptism links one to Christ.

Romans 6:1-10

Regards
 
By baptism (referring to that which saves) of course water baptism is not meant, for that does not save. At any rate, hopefully the extended scenario(s) I gave shows how indeed they could find forgiveness together.
 
cybershark5886 said:
By baptism (referring to that which saves) of course water baptism is not meant, for that does not save. At any rate, hopefully the extended scenario(s) I gave shows how indeed they could find forgiveness together.

the Church baptizes in Water and the Spirit, just as Christ told the first Christians - who continue to bring people into the Church through this "ritual", a perfection of the baptism of repentance of John.

Of course the water doesn't save - but the Spirit comes during the water baptism.

Regards
 
cybershark5886 said:
By baptism (referring to that which saves) of course water baptism is not meant, for that does not save. At any rate, hopefully the extended scenario(s) I gave shows how indeed they could find forgiveness together.
Protestant early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly writes, "From the beginning baptism was the
universally accepted rite of admission to the Church. . . . As regards its significance, it was always held to convey the remission of sins . . . we descend into the water ‘dead’ and come out again ‘alive’; we receive a white robe which symbolizes the Spirit . . .the Spirit is God himself dwelling in the believer, and the resulting life is a re-creation. Prior to baptism . . . our heart was the abode of demons . . . [but] baptism supplies us with the weapons for our spiritual warfare" (Early Christian Doctrines, 193–4).
 
Protestant early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly writes, "From the beginning baptism was the
universally accepted rite of admission to the Church. . . . As regards its significance, it was always held to convey the remission of sins . . . we descend into the water ‘dead’ and come out again ‘alive’; we receive a white robe which symbolizes the Spirit . . .the Spirit is God himself dwelling in the believer, and the resulting life is a re-creation. Prior to baptism . . . our heart was the abode of demons . . . [but] baptism supplies us with the weapons for our spiritual warfare" (Early Christian Doctrines, 193–4).

I did not mean to turn this into a baptism debate thread, so lets not get too side tracked on this, but the physical water is not necessary, as is evidenced by the theif on the cross. I actually did make a thread in the debate forum on baptism if you'd like to continue this discussion with me. But I know for a fact that water baptism is not necessary for salvation, as my Dad is a living testimony. He confessed with his mouth before a large crowd of people at his work by the conviction of the Spirit that he had accepted Jesus as Lord, even though they scoffed at him, and the the Bible clearly shows confession coupled with belief as the requirement to be saved. Men do not live godly lives, raise their children steeped in the Word of God (in the way they should go), demonstrate the fruits of the Spirit in kindness and meekness, intercede on behalf of the Church, and speak in tongues apart from the Spirit of God. My Dad is one of the godliest men I know (and an example to me in the image of Christ) and he was never water baptized, and he has been a leader and teacher in our Church before. Not to mention the Bible says no one can confess Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. Only a legalistic dogma would deny the salvation of my Dad, and as the Bible says "by their fruits you shall know them", and I have seen those fruits. All I mean to say is, the water isn't everything, although it does serve as a mode for public testimony (confession) as the Bible requires (which my Dad did with his mouth before a room full of unbelievers: not an easy thing to do).

God Bless,

~Josh
 
cybershark5886 said:
...I did not mean to turn this into a baptism debate thread, so lets not get too side tracked on this
..I sense a "but" coming
cybershark5886 said:
:)
cybershark5886 said:
...the physical water is not necessary, as is evidenced by the theif on the cross....
We have a saying: We are bound by the sacraments but God is not. I'm sure you can figure that out without me explaining it.
 
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