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Slavery
- Thread starter lucasdwi
- Start date
jasoncran
Member
slavery wasnt the slavery that we know back then, the verse that contain the words on slavery would better suited to be closer indentured servitude. most people that were slaves sold themselves into slavery in order to pay debt and were realeased after seven yrs.lucasdwi said:
though one could choose that life
for violating the year of the jubilee the lord judged both isreal and judea.
just a quick post on slavery and now we shouldnt practice now.
Drew
Member
I am not sure what you are asking. Do you assune that instructions on how to treat slaves means that slavery is some kind of timeless value that Christians are to buy into? I doubt that it is. Yes, there was slavery. And yes, Paul does not, perhaps, explicitly tell us to abolish slavery. But if Paul, or other Bible authors, were to try to set down in writing a comprehensive set of instructions on how to live, the Bible would be ten thousand pages long.
I think that Christians should, following in the steps of, say, William Wilberforce, work for the abolition of all forms of slavery.
I think that Christians should, following in the steps of, say, William Wilberforce, work for the abolition of all forms of slavery.
Drew,
I have some concerns about your last post here.
You say:
Let's look at the sources directly:
- When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
- If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
- Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
- Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
And regarding sexual slavery into which the act of selling one's daughters is specifically condoned so long as they are clothed and fed: When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
And all you have to say is "Yes, there was slavery"?
The Christian bibles are widely considered by Christians to represent the source for moral guidance in the universe, yet they get the very simple moral question of slavery, including the sexual slavery of our daughters so terribly wrong. It seems to me that this ought to be a serious source of consternation and cognitive dissonance for intelligent Christians like you Drew, but instead, you just glide over it with blithe commentary
As far as excusing the Christian bibles from failing to condemn slavery because doing so would be just too much to ask of these books, all I can do is illustrate with an example of just how far out to lunch you are. It would be as if my daughter, doing a school project on Adolf Hitler, asked me who he was and what his role in history was, and my response to her was that he was a highly patriotic vegetarian German leader who commissioned the construction of the Autobahn and the VW Beetle. A few weeks later, when she'd be finished her project, she would surely approach me and ask her why I didn't mention his quest for world domination and the Holocaust, and I would have to think that you would be quite proud of me if I just told her that that expectation of me was just too high as there is only so much historical information that I can meter out.
These books aren't too busy filling us with good information on other topics more important than slavery: they specifically discuss slavery at length! What they say about it, and more importantly, what they don't say about it, reveal these books to be abject failures as sources of moral clarity.
Slavery, among the greatest cruelties and injustices that is simultaneously so obviously immoral to anyone honestly concerned with the welfare of others, should have been explicitly outlawed by these books, that instead, instruct us with nonsensical details such as that we should not eat pork or shellfish before the time of Jesus, and that they are just fine for consumption afterwards, or that we can kill our slaves as long as they take a few days to die.
I have some concerns about your last post here.
You say:
Drew said:
Let's look at the sources directly:
- When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
- If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)
- Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
- Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)
And regarding sexual slavery into which the act of selling one's daughters is specifically condoned so long as they are clothed and fed: When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
And all you have to say is "Yes, there was slavery"?
The Christian bibles are widely considered by Christians to represent the source for moral guidance in the universe, yet they get the very simple moral question of slavery, including the sexual slavery of our daughters so terribly wrong. It seems to me that this ought to be a serious source of consternation and cognitive dissonance for intelligent Christians like you Drew, but instead, you just glide over it with blithe commentary
As far as excusing the Christian bibles from failing to condemn slavery because doing so would be just too much to ask of these books, all I can do is illustrate with an example of just how far out to lunch you are. It would be as if my daughter, doing a school project on Adolf Hitler, asked me who he was and what his role in history was, and my response to her was that he was a highly patriotic vegetarian German leader who commissioned the construction of the Autobahn and the VW Beetle. A few weeks later, when she'd be finished her project, she would surely approach me and ask her why I didn't mention his quest for world domination and the Holocaust, and I would have to think that you would be quite proud of me if I just told her that that expectation of me was just too high as there is only so much historical information that I can meter out.
These books aren't too busy filling us with good information on other topics more important than slavery: they specifically discuss slavery at length! What they say about it, and more importantly, what they don't say about it, reveal these books to be abject failures as sources of moral clarity.
Slavery, among the greatest cruelties and injustices that is simultaneously so obviously immoral to anyone honestly concerned with the welfare of others, should have been explicitly outlawed by these books, that instead, instruct us with nonsensical details such as that we should not eat pork or shellfish before the time of Jesus, and that they are just fine for consumption afterwards, or that we can kill our slaves as long as they take a few days to die.
jasoncran said:
Perhaps we should take the Holocaust in the context of the time and the audience ... in the context of the irrational dogma of antisemitism. After all, the Church and millions of "good" Christians were complicit.
You're right, the Holocaust was what it was: a bunch of good people just doing what they thought was their best in life.
Here's how it seems to me: You are guilty of a double standard, for you judge the Christian bibles as good sources of moral direction/clarity when you agree with what they say, but you claim that you can't judge them because of context when you don't.
jasoncran
Member
the holocaust was evil and dont put a bunch of words that i didnt say, even though i was in a grey area, are you hebrew, did you lose relatives there, did your jewish-american relatives volunteer to fight. mine did. i am a christian but carry the hebrew dna.AAA said:
apples and oranges, dont think that i dont struggle with concept of slavery.drew has a point about wilberforce, aaa name one aethist that has done that for a society
jasoncran said:
Apples and oranges? Here's what it looks like you're saying: the holocaust was evil, but slavery as condoned in the Christian supernatural books was terrific.
Oh yeah, that's exactly what you must be saying, and that's exactly how it must be for your world view to hold up isn't it?
Both the holocaust and the slavery condoned in the Christian supernatural books, as well as many other messages in the Christian supernatural books are all patently evil. Gassing humans and treating them like farm equipment or sex toys, wiping out entire populations including children is all pure evil. Full stop.
Christians can't be the champions of "objective morality" and then argue that the moral wisdom of their supernatural books is subject to the times and the context.
Besides, according to Christian supernatural books, the Christian deity is evil (Isaiah 45:7).
Slavery is continually generating into a new form even as the old form is passing away.
Slavery is alive and stronger and much more intellectualized and thereby more fully self-justified than in the more primitive form of slavery of the body.
Even some of those who are angry at the old form, are the leaders in the abuse in the new manifestation.
Joe
Slavery is alive and stronger and much more intellectualized and thereby more fully self-justified than in the more primitive form of slavery of the body.
Even some of those who are angry at the old form, are the leaders in the abuse in the new manifestation.
Joe