Slaying sacred cows-- the myth of essential Christian beliefs

[TMal3]

Must Jesus be Lord,
or must He be GOD?

With the possible exceptions of Roman 9.5, John 1.1, & Thomas' proclamation "my Lord and my God" in John, the early church used "God" to designate 'God the Father,' and "Lord" to designate 'God the Son'/Christ. In this context, Lord still means God, and corresponds to the same names used of God in the OT. Elohim (usually translated "God") and Adonai (in place of the sacred name Yawheh; and usually translated "LORD" in all caps in the OT at least with ESV Bible translation) are both used of God in the OT.

But the real 'smoking gun', however, is the substitution of Christ for God in OT passages.

For example, the Pre-Pauline "Christ Hymn" in Phillipians 2.6-11 believed to be an early Christian hymn that Paul is quoting:

Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

The hymn in turn quotes from Isaiah 45, which emphasizes monotheism and attributes such high praise to God and God alone.

5 I am the Lord, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.

23 By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.
24 They will say of me, ‘In the Lord alone
are deliverance and strength.’”

So, in the Isaiah 45 passage where Yaweh alone is the one "every knee will bow to" and "every tongue confess," this early Christian hymn substitutes Jesus Christ, making it unmistakably clear that by Lord, the early Christians did, in fact, mean Jesus is God.

 

[TMal3]

I know the didache.
Scholars now date it at about 70 to 90AD.

I like it. It's simple and direct
And yes, 1 Corinthians 15 is often referred to as The Gospel message, but I agree that it's not complete. Although Christianity does rest on the resurrection.

Thanks.

Oops, I should have been more clear. Didache is the written work to which you refer (and yes, I like it too). But I simply meant the Greek word *didache* for "teaching" used in the NT.

 

[GodsGrace]

With the possible exceptions of Roman 9.5, John 1.1, & Thomas' proclamation "my Lord and my God" in John, the early church used "God" to designate 'God the Father,' and "Lord" to designate 'God the Son'/Christ. In this context, Lord still means God, and corresponds to the same names used of God in the OT. Elohim (usually translated "God") and Adonai (in place of the sacred name Yawheh; and usually translated "LORD" in all caps in the OT at least with ESV Bible translation) are both used of God in the OT.

But the real 'smoking gun', however, is the substitution of Christ for God in OT passages.

For example, the Pre-Pauline "Christ Hymn" in Phillipians 2.6-11 believed to be an early Christian hymn that Paul is quoting:

Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

The hymn in turn quotes from Isaiah 45, which emphasizes monotheism and attributes such high praise to God and God alone.

5 I am the Lord, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.

23 By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.
24 They will say of me, ‘In the Lord alone
are deliverance and strength.’”

So, in the Isaiah 45 passage where Yaweh alone is the one "every know will bow to" and "every tongue confess," this early Christian hymn substitutes Jesus Christ, making it unmistakably clear that by Lord, the early Christians did, in fact, mean Jesus is God.

Having a discussion with a witness.
I brought up Titus 1:13
OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST.

She says it's referring to 2 different persons.
So much could be said. In the OT God declares HE will save His people. Ezekiel.

There's also a couple of verses in Isaiah that are great to show Jesus is God, but I need my bible...
I'll try to find it on here...

 

[GodsGrace]

Oops, I should have been more clear. Didache is the written work to which you refer (and yes, I like it too). But I simply meant the Greek word *didache* for "teaching" used in the NT.

It's Isaiah 9:6

A Son will be given...
His name will be Mighty God.

So if God Father exists
And The Son will be called Mighty God..

Without the Trinity, that would make 2 Gods.

 

[TMal3]

Having a discussion with a witness.
I brought up Titus 1:13
OUR GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST.

She says it's referring to 2 different persons.
So much could be said. In the OT God declares HE will save His people. Ezekiel.

There's also a couple of verses in Isaiah that are great to show Jesus is God, but I need my bible...
I'll try to find it on here...

Of course by the Granville Sharp Rule Titus 2.13 "God and Lord" both have to refer to Jesus. The reference to the Parousia second coming ("appearing") of Christ strengthens that conclusion

 

[Hidden In Him]

You ain't killing this one...
The resurrection.

I agree. Was he questioning the resurrection in another thread perhaps? I recognize the argument he was trying to present, and I'm curious, but his posts can no longer be traced due to being banned.

Just curious.

 

[TMal3]

wondering

Regarding the convo you mentioned w/the JW, I like the late Larry Hurtado's approach to Christology (Also, had a friend who studied and got his his doctorate under Hurtado, arguing that Romans 9.5 is calling Jesus God). Instead of focusing on debates over the meaning of christological titles like the 'Son of God' and such (although important and his work does cover this too), Dr. Hurtado spent over forty years studying the devotional practices of early Christians as they are evidenced in the NT. The fact that Christ is worshipped and prayed to---practices only reserved for Yawheh in 2nd Temple Judaism---is strong evidence that this was not some later development, but that the earliest Christians worshipped Jesus as God from the beginning after the crucifixion-resurrection.

Here's a few selections from one of his books.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering

Regarding the convo you mentioned w/the JW, I like the late Larry Hurtado's approach to Christology (Also, had a friend who studied and got his his doctorate under Hurtado, arguing that Romans 9.5 is calling Jesus God). Instead of focusing on debates over the meaning of christological titles like the 'Son of God' and such (although important and his work does cover this too), Dr. Hurtado spent over forty years studying the devotional practices of early Christians as they are evidenced in the NT. The fact that Christ is worshipped and prayed to---practices only reserved for Yawheh in 2nd Temple Judaism---is strong evidence that this was not some later development, but that the earliest Christians worshipped Jesus as God from the beginning after the crucifixion-resurrection.

Here's a few selections from one of his books.

Hi T,
Thanks for the above.
I saved the highlighted information and have some reading to do!

It's pretty funny.
They try to convert me, and I try to convert them!
Very friendly, of course.
Their big problem is the fellowship.
Everyone they know is a witness, AND it's so difficult to leave the organization.