So educate me...

[wayseer]

lol Can of worms or what.

I could tell you all about my wife, show you photo's of her and tell you her favourite colour, food music etc. I don't think that all that would mean that you know her as much as someone who has spent time with her and built up a relationship with her.
I'm not afraid of studying theology. I'm sure that there is much to be learned about God by studying the thoughts and writings of godly men, but there are a great many christians who don't have the time, education or (to be brutally honest) the intellect to get to grips with deeper theology. What about them? are they to be relegated to some kind of second class christianity where they are not qualified to talk about God? What about testimony? How does received knowledge (received from man, that is), compare with your actual experience of how God has dealt with you personally?
I got baptised in the spirit while riding my motorbike two weeks after receiving Christ. I was overcome by laughter and had to stop at the side of the road while I cried with laughter for a whole 10-15 minutes. I had never heard of the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the church I was at didn't preach it, and it was ten years before the whole Toronto thing even happened. It was God. I laughed a whole load of filth and corruption out of my soul.
I can already guarantee that there are going to be at least four different rationalisations of my experience, one offer of deliverance ministry, one condemnation for heresy, a couple of halleluja's and possibly an offer of employment at a vineyard church.

If you are looking for the fast tract to God try Islam. No study required. Just attend prayers and carry out ablutions and look up the odd ruling to make sure you're on track.

 

[Hitch]

it amazes me that we christians think that unity in christ must mean also uniformity in christ.




​

 

[jasoncran]

it amazes me that we christians think that unity in christ must mean also uniformity in christ.




​

the modern army has manuals that are used to train and its not taken kindly taken when regs arent followed. yet some seem to want that mentality in church. thank god NO. by that i mean if i train you to know what to do and its in the book that is the only way YOU do it.

 

[God's_gift]

Hi. I have this question to ask and it's really bugging me.
How necessary is it to have all or some of the following in order to understand the bible? And what order, from the most important to least.
A) A formal theological education
B) An understanding of classical languages (Greek, Hebrew, Latin whatever).
C) Revelation from the Holy Spirit and a teachable heart.
D) the "right" version of the bible.
I only ask because so often arguments and divisions arise among believers because of splitting theological hairs. I believe, (and forgive me if this is heresy) that God is actually quite a clever chap, and is able to communicate His will and message in spite of our education or lack thereof. That He is well able to use and bless and save using any version of the bible that has been published in good conscience by believing men (or women), and that actually, He has little regard for theology in general, given it's propensity to cause division and strife among people who should be loving one another in true christian fellowship.
Just thought I'd ask...

this : C) Revelation from the Holy Spirit and a teachable heart. then the rest will follow

 

[childeye]

it amazes me that we christians think that unity in christ must mean also uniformity in christ.




​

Well said, the body of Christ exists not apart from the head and the Holt Spirit orchestrates.

 

[andyboylester]

it amazes me that we christians think that unity in christ must mean also uniformity in christ.




​

I don't so much have a problem with differences in theology. The problem is when two brethren disagree on a (sometimes esoteric) point of theology and fall into animosity over it. That is NOT unity in Christ.

 

[andyboylester]

If you are looking for the fast tract to God try Islam. No study required. Just attend prayers and carry out ablutions and look up the odd ruling to make sure you're on track.

I don't think you read my post at all. I said nothing about works or obedience to rules, I was talking about cultivating a relationship with God, through studying the bible, prayer, and fellowship with your brethren. Where is my error in this? Don't you think it's important to pray? As for study, as others have said study does NOT guarantee revelation or saving faith. I bet a better percentage of muslims know thier holy book better than Christians know the bible. Certainly most Jews are thoroughly well versed in the Torah, but that won't save them. Study in and of itself is useless, and must be combined with a living relationship with Jesus, and if you can't manage both, for whatever reason, Jesus comes first.

 

[Drew]

But it is his own words that say that God reveals to mere children what He hides from the learned and scholarly.

I think you are misreading what Jesus is saying. And I believe you are making the age-old mistake of thinking that hard, serious, intentional study on the part of a believer constitutes "man's thinking". Another false either / or.

When Jesus says what He says about truth being hidden from the wise, He is most certainly not in any sense denigrating the careful, scholarly, pursuit of Biblical knowledge. He is instead engaged in a pointed critique of those who have an over-blown sense pride in themselves and the knowledge they possess.

To criticize a man who is proud in his knowledge is hardly the basis to suggest that we can give up the challenging task of humbly studying the Bible is careful, scholarly manner.

With all due respect, at the end of the day I think the problem here is one where people seek a Biblical rationalization to avoid doing hard work. Again, not everyone has the time, the natural ability, or the education to do this.

But we should value, endorse, and otherwise support those scholars who carefully, methodically, and assiduously pursue a deeper understanding of the Biblical texts.

 

[Drew]

Christ is a simple Truth that even children who can't read can comprehend.

True, but deeply misleading.

Yes, one can understand the "basics" of the Christian faith even as a simple child. But that is hardly a justification for not then going on to plumb the deeper riches that are there in scripture.

I politely suggest you are, perhaps implicitly, embracing "shortcut" theology - the notion that its OK to not do the hard work of struggling with the Scriptures.

Paul was once Saul a very well versed theologian. This did not open his eyes to God however.

Bringing up Paul does not help your case at all. One Paul was converted, he used his scholarly knowledge to lay out a sophisticated story about how Jesus fulfills the covenant. This is important stuff, and to grasp it requires a lot of hard work and study.

The important thing about Paul: If he had not done all that hard study of the Old Testament before his conversion, he would never have been in a position to write many of the letters that he did.

 

[Sparkey]

"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me." - (Mat 18:1-5 KJV)

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (Jhn 14:16 KJV)

"But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." - (Jhn 14:26 KJV)

 

[Drew]

"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me." - (Mat 18:1-5 KJV)

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (Jhn 14:16 KJV)

"But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." - (Jhn 14:26 KJV)

Clearly things are not this simple.

Did the Holy Spirit teach people to translate from Hebrew to English and from Greek to English? Unless someone did the hard work of learning - yes through serious academic study - how to translate from one language to another, none of us would have a Bible today.

Did the Holy Spirit teach us that the Jews were exiled from Rome in about 50 AD, enabling us to make sense of the pastoral purpose of the book of Romans? No. This had to be learned by hard work and study.

Did the Holy Spirit teach us that, in Roman culture, the term "evangelion" (gospel) was used to announce the ascendancy of a new Emperor to the throne, thereby helping us to understand that Paul, steeped in the Roman world, is using the term "gospel" to refer to Jesus' kingship?. No. This was learned through history / archeology.

Did the Holy Spirit teach us that the Jews of Jesus' day used fanciful end of the world language (the stars will fall from the sky) in a metaphorical mode to refer to socio-political change? No. This was learned from serious historical research. Of course, most Christians don't know about this, not least because of the unhealthy rejection of serious scholarly work. And so they radically misunderstand such language and expect stars to literally fall to earth. And so on.

I could go on and on and on.

It is a patent fantasy to expect that all the knowledge we need to develop a full and rich understanding of the Christian faith is "downloaded" by the Holy Spirit into the minds of believers.

 

[Sparkey]

Clearly things are not this simple.

Did the Holy Spirit teach people to translate from Hebrew to English and from Greek to English? Unless someone did the hard work of learning - yes through serious academic study - how to translate from one language to another, none of us would have a Bible today.

Did the Holy Spirit teach us that the Jews were exiled from Rome in about 50 AD, enabling us to make sense of the pastoral purpose of the book of Romans? No. This had to be learned by hard work and study.

Did the Holy Spirit teach us that, in Roman culture, the term "evangelion" (gospel) was used to announce the ascendancy of a new Emperor to the throne, thereby helping us to understand that Paul, steeped in the Roman world, is using the term "gospel" to refer to Jesus' kingship?. No. This was learned through history / archeology.

Did the Holy Spirit teach us that the Jews of Jesus' day used fanciful end of the world language (the stars will fall from the sky) in a metaphorical mode to refer to socio-political change? No. This was learned from serious historical research. Of course, most Christians don't know about this, not least because of the unhealthy rejection of serious scholarly work. And so they radically misunderstand such language and expect stars to literally fall to earth. And so on.

I could go on and on and on.

It is a patent fantasy to expect that all the knowledge we need to develop a full and rich understanding of the Christian faith is "downloaded" by the Holy Spirit into the minds of believers.

Drew, I'm not saying that studying the Bible is evil or wrong or that it has no merit. But I am quoting the words of our Lord. They are not to be dismissed. You state that it is a fantasy to expect that all the knowledge we need ... is downloaded by the Holy Spirit into the minds of believers.

I would counter by stating the obvious and hope that you can agree that knowledge in itself will do nothing to redeem us. Knowledge will not join us together. We have the lesson of the Tree of Knowledge itself and "know" the difference between good and evil, yet the Tree of Life is our Christ, and it is by His life and by His Spirit that we are given life.

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing."
- (Jhn 15:1-5 KJV)

Apart from the Spirit of God knowledge can do nothing. And yet your point is well made: "Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because [they have] no knowledge: and their honourable men [are] famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst." - (Isa 5:13 KJV) Please do not try to cast your concepts about "shortcuts" or "fantasy" onto all. I'm not saying that knowledge isn't a priceless thing, but only that if we are not guided by the Holy Spirit in its use, we are not able to benefit from it.

 

[Free]

Clearly things are not this simple.

Did the Holy Spirit teach people to translate from Hebrew to English and from Greek to English? Unless someone did the hard work of learning - yes through serious academic study - how to translate from one language to another, none of us would have a Bible today.

Did the Holy Spirit teach us that the Jews were exiled from Rome in about 50 AD, enabling us to make sense of the pastoral purpose of the book of Romans? No. This had to be learned by hard work and study.

Did the Holy Spirit teach us that, in Roman culture, the term "evangelion" (gospel) was used to announce the ascendancy of a new Emperor to the throne, thereby helping us to understand that Paul, steeped in the Roman world, is using the term "gospel" to refer to Jesus' kingship?. No. This was learned through history / archeology.

Did the Holy Spirit teach us that the Jews of Jesus' day used fanciful end of the world language (the stars will fall from the sky) in a metaphorical mode to refer to socio-political change? No. This was learned from serious historical research. Of course, most Christians don't know about this, not least because of the unhealthy rejection of serious scholarly work. And so they radically misunderstand such language and expect stars to literally fall to earth. And so on.

I could go on and on and on.

It is a patent fantasy to expect that all the knowledge we need to develop a full and rich understanding of the Christian faith is "downloaded" by the Holy Spirit into the minds of believers.

Something I have often pointed out is that each person who has said "all we need is the Holy Spirit," or something similar, has a different "Holy Spirit given interpretation" from each other person who has said "all we need is the Holy Spirit."

Clearly, choosing 'C' as the only answer is not correct.

 

[Sparkey]

Hi. I have this question to ask and it's really bugging me.










How necessary is it to have all or some of the following in order to understand the bible? And what order, from the most important to least.

• A) A formal theological education

• B) An understanding of classical languages (Greek, Hebrew, Latin whatever).

• C) Revelation from the Holy Spirit and a teachable heart.

• D) the "right" version of the bible.

I only ask because so often arguments and divisions arise among believers because of splitting theological hairs.
...

For those of us who have had a formal theological education the concept of selecting the one best answer to a multiple choice question does not mean that the other answers are necessarily wrong, but only that from the given choices there is one (and only one) that will be scored correct by the administrator of the test. If this wasn't the intent of the OP, then the answer, "A, B & C are all correct" or "All of the Above" may have been included in the multiple-choice alternatives.

The order (from most to least important) that I would assign would be
C) Revelation from the Holy Spirit and a teachable heart. I especially like the part about a teachable heart.

Then I'd go outside of the given responses to list "E: Prayerful fellowship with other Christians and Group Study" as the next important.

"A) A formal theological education," could mean an education given by any religious group and I don't know how to evaluate it as stated.

B) An understanding of classical languages (Greek, Hebrew, Latin whatever) would be helpful but in modern times is not as crucial as answer "C". [EDIT BY SPARROWHAWKE]: As I read this again it occurs to me that being a scribe, even a bi-lingual, or multi-linqual scribe or technical translator who can cite chapter and verse for every screwy doctrine imaginable isn't all that helpful. The language skills are excellent of themselves and clearly needed but apart from the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, given that we might know the things of God, well, if all we have is the "Spirit of world" and all we can see are the natural things of the world then these linguistic skills are of little personal value.

Regarding Answer "D": Given that "C" is the case, and we have the Guidance of the Holy Spirit combined with a teachable heart, comparing multiple versions seems prudent while studying and applying the Word of God to our lives, but it would be classified by me as being of less importance. I don't know of any "right" version. It would seem though that for those who considered this to be of vital importance, there should be a direct correlation between the value given to this answer and the value given to answer "B".

 

[wayseer]

I don't think you read my post at all. I said nothing about works or obedience to rules, I was talking about cultivating a relationship with God, through studying the bible, prayer, and fellowship with your brethren. Where is my error in this? Don't you think it's important to pray? As for study, as others have said study does NOT guarantee revelation or saving faith. I bet a better percentage of muslims know thier holy book better than Christians know the bible. Certainly most Jews are thoroughly well versed in the Torah, but that won't save them. Study in and of itself is useless, and must be combined with a living relationship with Jesus, and if you can't manage both, for whatever reason, Jesus comes first.

As I said, you sound like a Muslim.

Muslims may well know the Qur'an better than most Christians know the Bible but we have the Word of God - not a book we have to keep referring to or a list of 'must dos'.

I am not suggesting you are necessarily wrong - just that you sound as if you think that study is not important.

 

[andyboylester]

As I said, you sound like a Muslim.

Muslims may well know the Qur'an better than most Christians know the Bible but we have the Word of God - not a book we have to keep referring to or a list of 'must dos'.

I am not suggesting you are necessarily wrong - just that you sound as if you think that study is not important.

Ok, this is why I don't do "theology". Read again what I said, that study (or knowledge of the bible) DOES NOT guarantee saving faith, but only a living relationship with Jesus. Jesus is the Word of God (See John chap 1), I believe I stated, if not expressly, then by implication, that adherence to rules WILL NOT SAVE YOU.

I think I need to clarify myself.
We are saved by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works.
Works are the outpouring of the life of the holy Spirit in us, and are the "proof" of our faith.
Study is works, but is dangerous because "knowledge puffs up, but love builds up" 1 Corinthians 8:1
Study is good, and is commanded in scripture, but it can be a cause of spiritual pride, which is bad. for example:
When Christian brethren find themselves at odds over the correct interpretation of a particular passage of scripture, they should make all efforts to resolve the question in love with humility. Perhaps even with reference to a third party. if the question is unresolvable, they should agree to disagree, and respectfully allow each other to get on with it. Do they? try posting a thread stating your belief in the correct mode of baptism, and see how much love you experience if you try to defend it. Whatever it is.

 

[Sparrowhawk1161]

JUst seeing if this post goes through becasue my other one did not!

 

[Sparrowhawk1161]

OK.. let's try this again...


Much abreviated:


Versions of the Bible are all over the place. Concepts is what I see. What the Bible is telling us as a whole.

The Vine and The branches: We all do something!

If someone is Islamic in their religion? Love them... Befriend them... and stick by your friendship...and never let it go! They might ask why, as a christian you are doing such things? Because the Lord told me too, but, really, you are a great person and I like you... YOU ARE A GREAT FRIEND. Why? Because they are?

You are allowing the Holy Spirit to do the work! Jesus said, do not worry abnout what you will say... the Holy Spirit will do that for you!"

It's possible... just possible that they might ask about why you are the way you are... and the Holy Spirit will fill you with the words to say!

The Bible has been translated many times... but, we read it how we want take it how we feel. That is the nature of the Bible. We as individuals learn from it. One's version is different to anothers interpretation, even as you read it now.

It's the concepts of what is being read that is important.

I know this is blunt, but, for some odd reason my post didn't get through, like the more elequent stuff I wrote... well just seeing if it goes through. BUt the message is the same

 

[zeke]

The Bible has been translated many times... but, we read it how we want take it how we feel. That is the nature of the Bible. We as individuals learn from it. One's version is different to anothers interpretation, even as you read it now.

Clarification please – are you saying Christians cannot read the Bible and come to the same doctrinal interpretation?

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
(2Ti 3:16)​

 

[Sparrowhawk1161]

OK...I tried...I am new here. I spent so much time tryint to just answer this question. I tried to answer your question... lot's of time too.

Is there a character limit for trying to post things on this site?