Sola Scriptura?

[Scotth1960]

"Sola Scriptura is the concept of using Scripture alone to know God and learn about life in Christ. That is, there exists no need for assistance by the two-thousand-year-old Church to interpret Scripture.
"The Bible a "Personal" Matter
"Protestantism's Sola Scriptura insists that interpretation of the Bible is a personal matter. This is a position that not only demands a departure from what has been universally and consistently believed by Christianity since the time of Christ but which also contradicts the Bible itself: "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation" (2 Pe. 1:20).
"The "dogma" of Scripture alone was a product of the Protestant Reformation's opposition to abuses committed by the Western Church at Rome under Pope Leo X in the early sixteenth century. Because the criticisms lodged by Martin Luther failed to result in corrective action, Protestant Reformers had no choice but to turn from organized religion and the Church's authority. This was a course that severed any and all reliance on apostolic teaching, the Church, and the Church Fathers.
"There was another alternative to the split with Rome. Protestant Reformers could have returned to the Church that had been established by the Lord Jesus Christ in the first century. Unfortunately, that avenue was not pursued and without any connection to the historical New Testament Church Protestantism was left at sea in an every-man-for-himself-dilemma.
"The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth (Jn. 14:26 & Jn. 16:13), is the dwelling place of God in Spirit (Eph. 2:22), and is the pillar and ground of truth (1 Tim. 3:15). As such the Church serves as the keeper and protector of apostolic teaching (which, in part, involves written Scripture). Thus, to turn from the Church must also result in departing from what the Body of Christ has always believed, a replacing of that corporate belief with personal opinion. And in turn this undermines the authority of the Bible because if one doesn't trust the tradition that produced it, one can hardly trust the Bible. ..."
[pp. 18-19: Anthony. (2006). WEST OF JESUS: The Bible's Answer to Protestant Departure from Orthodox Belief. Salisbury, MA: Regina Orthodox Press.].
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In Erie PA In search of Truth (John 16:13, etc.), Scott R. Harrington SCOTTH1960

 

[craigmn3]

"The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth (Jn. 14:26 & Jn. 16:13), is the dwelling place of God in Spirit (Eph. 2:22), and is the pillar and ground of truth (1 Tim. 3:15). As such the Church serves as the keeper and protector of apostolic teaching (which, in part, involves written Scripture). Thus, to turn from the Church must also result in departing from what the Body of Christ has always believed, a replacing of that corporate belief with personal opinion. And in turn this undermines the authority of the Bible because if one doesn't trust the tradition that produced it, one can hardly trust the Bible. ..."
[

The BELIEVER is guided by the Holy Spirit. God never intended for anything to come between Him and His People. When Jesus died the veil the temple seperating man and God was torn assunder.
Do not place, man, a church or "holy tradition" between man and God...ever

 

[Alabaster]

"The Bible a "Personal" Matter
"Protestantism's Sola Scriptura insists that interpretation of the Bible is a personal matter. This is a position that not only demands a departure from what has been universally and consistently believed by Christianity since the time of Christ but which also contradicts the Bible itself: "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation" (2 Pe. 1:20).

2 Peter 1:20 Amplified
[Yet] first [you must] understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is [a matter] of any personal or private or special interpretation (loosening, solving).

Therefore the 'personal' attribute is not true of those who hold to Sola Scriptura.

 

[Scotth1960]

The BELIEVER is guided by the Holy Spirit. God never intended for anything to come between Him and His People. When Jesus died the veil the temple seperating man and God was torn assunder.
Do not place, man, a church or "holy tradition" between man and God...ever

Dear craigmn3: If one comes to God "by oneself", it is only oneself that is keeping a man from coming to God. If one is one's own teacher, one begins to teach oneself error. Christ founded "THE BODY" of Christ (the Church: Matthew 16:18). He didn't promise that the gates of hell wouldn't prevail against us as individuals. The mouths of heretics won't prevail against our souls only if we become members together of Christ's body, His Church. If one can bring oneself to God, one can baptize oneself, give oneself communion, read the Bible "for oneself", preach to oneself, even "pray to oneself" by oneself, I gather. We need a Church we can trust. No man should dare to trust himself. The Church does not separate us from God. What separates us from God is OUR OWN PERSONAL SINS which KEEP US FROM JOINING THE CHURCH THAT CHRIST FOUNDED. Each man BECOMES HIS OWN PERSONAL POPE, HIS OWN "MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN", HIS OWN MINISTER, HIS OWN PASTOR, HIS OWN BISHOP, HIS OWN PRIEST. Ultimately, one will have to get his understanding of the Bible from SOMEONE ELSE OTHER THAN "JUST ONESELF ALONE WITH THE BIBLE". In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[Alabaster]

"The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit into all truth (Jn. 14:26 & Jn. 16:13), is the dwelling place of God in Spirit (Eph. 2:22), and is the pillar and ground of truth (1 Tim. 3:15). As such the Church serves as the keeper and protector of apostolic teaching (which, in part, involves written Scripture). Thus, to turn from the Church must also result in departing from what the Body of Christ has always believed, a replacing of that corporate belief with personal opinion. And in turn this undermines the authority of the Bible because if one doesn't trust the tradition that produced it, one can hardly trust the Bible. ..."

The 'Church' is made up of individuals who are led by the Holy Spirit, and taught by Him. Do not make the mistake of believing that the Church is an institution. Scripture does not speak to it.

The bible is the authority we have next to Jesus Christ Himself. The Church is not an authority...it is the Bride of Christ, loved and led by Him. Tradition has no authority next to the word of God.

If one trusts tradition, then one is trusting it over the scriptures, which lends to one being led astray.

 

[craigmn3]

Dear Scotth1960

If you let a Church set your beliefs then you find yourself wandering off the road of righteousness and praying to dead people.

You start seeking men istead of God

According to the Catholic Cathechism the Catholic Church sets it theology on equal parts of Scripture and "Holy Tradition"....and all of the flaws in the RCC are found in that "Holy Tradition"


Now I did not come here to cut into a fellow believer, so peace...out

 

[Scotth1960]

The 'Church' is made up of individuals who are led by the Holy Spirit, and taught by Him. Do not make the mistake of believing that the Church is an institution. Scripture does not speak to it.

The bible is the authority we have next to Jesus Christ Himself. The Church is not an authority...it is the Bride of Christ, loved and led by Him. Tradition has no authority next to the word of God.

If one trusts tradition, then one is trusting it over the scriptures, which lends to one being led astray.

Friends, If one trusts ONESELF to TELL ONESELF what the BIBLE MEANS, one is trusting a TRADITION that may DISAGREE with the BIBLE. One cannot read the Bible "for oneself", by oneself. One will necessarily read the Bible ACCORDING TO SOME TRADITION. It is only a QUESTION of whether one's tradition COMES FROM GOD or whether one's tradition COMES FROM MEN, OR FROM ONESELF. If it COMES FROM ONESELF, IT COMES FROM MEN, AND NOT FROM GOD.
NOT EVERYTHING we need to know IS IN THE BIBLE ALONE. The Bible says, "So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter" 2 THESSALONIANS 2:15 ESV.
This shows there is UNWRITTEN APOSTOLIC TRADITION that came from St. Paul, St. Peter, and all the other NT apostles of Christ, that was handed down to early Christians ALONG WITH THE WRITTEN NT AND THE OT.
We need an institution, or else each of us AS INDIVIDUALS becomes an institution in his/her own "rite" ("right"?), INTERPRETING THE SCRIPTURES ACCORDING TO OUR OWN PRIVATE INTERPRETATION. THIS Scripture itself FORBIDS. In Erie PA USA SCOTTH1960 Scott R. Harrington

 

[Alabaster]

Friends, If one trusts ONESELF to TELL ONESELF what the BIBLE MEANS, one is trusting a TRADITION that may DISAGREE with the BIBLE. One cannot read the Bible "for oneself", by oneself. One will necessarily read the Bible ACCORDING TO SOME TRADITION. It is only a QUESTION of whether one's tradition COMES FROM GOD or whether one's tradition COMES FROM MEN, OR FROM ONESELF. If it COMES FROM ONESELF, IT COMES FROM MEN, AND NOT FROM GOD.
NOT EVERYTHING we need to know IS IN THE BIBLE ALONE. The Bible says, "So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter" 2 THESSALONIANS 2:15 ESV.
This shows there is UNWRITTEN APOSTOLIC TRADITION that came from St. Paul, St. Peter, and all the other NT apostles of Christ, that was handed down to early Christians ALONG WITH THE WRITTEN NT AND THE OT.
We need an institution, or else each of us AS INDIVIDUALS becomes an institution in his/her own "rite" ("right"?), INTERPRETING THE SCRIPTURES ACCORDING TO OUR OWN PRIVATE INTERPRETATION. THIS Scripture itself FORBIDS. In Erie PA USA SCOTTH1960 Scott R. Harrington

Holy Spirit living in us teaches us all things, through His word and through His people placed in our lives by God Himself.

The bible is the source of all we need to know about God and righteousness.

The so-called Catholic belief about the apostolic tradition is nothing more than the grapevine effect. We all know how it unravels.

Nowhere does the bible tell us we need an institution to dispense truth. We have the word of God and the Holy Spirit that Jesus sent us to teach us all things.

John 14:26 NLT
But when the Father sends the Advocate as my representative—that is, the Holy Spirit—he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you.

 

[Scotth1960]

Dear Scotth1960

If you let a Church set your beliefs then you find yourself wandering off the road of righteousness and praying to dead people.

You start seeking men istead of God

According to the Catholic Cathechism the Catholic Church sets it theology on equal parts of Scripture and "Holy Tradition"....and all of the flaws in the RCC are found in that "Holy Tradition"


Now I did not come here to cut into a fellow believer, so peace...out

Dear craig, The RCC departed from the tradition(s) of the early Catholic Church. The RCC is not the Catholic Church. The Church that is truly Catholic and universal is the (Greek) Orthodox Church. It's called Greek because the original language of the NT was Greek. In Greek. Greek-speaking Christians.
The popes of Rome departed from the teaching of the Bible according to the Tradition that GAVE US THE BIBLE, the ORTHODOX TRADITION, of the ORTHODOX CHURCH, and it is THE CHURCH that is "the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 TIMOTHY 3:15). I TIMOTHY 3:15 is in your Bible, and it says THE CHURCH is the basis of the truth, not "the Bible alone". With the "Bible alone" approach, you INTERPRET THE BIBLE ANY WAY YOU WANT TO, ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN SELF-INTERPRETATION, MAN-MADE TRADITION.
In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington PS RCC means Roman "Catholic" (sic) "Church" (sic). Papal Rome today is neither catholic nor the true church.

 

[jasoncran]

the nt was originally in aramiac as that was what the lord spoke alot of the time, and also so did the early church in some parts.
do we know if all the apostles spoke greek?

paul did. but i doubt peter and john did.

 

[francisdesales]

The bible is the authority we have next to Jesus Christ

Scriptures, please?

The Church is not an authority...

Paul thinks otherwise. He over and over tells Church communities about the authority that he has over them... So does Jesus, for example, Matt 16 and Matt 18...

it is the Bride of Christ, loved and led by Him. Tradition has no authority next to the word of God.

Paul says otherwise in 2 Thess 2:15, for example. The Word of God is not confined to written words. The Word of God is a PERSON - and Jesus told His Apostles to teach EVERYTHING I taught (which was not at that time written, nor has it been ALL written in Scriptures afterwards).

If one trusts tradition, then one is trusting it over the scriptures, which lends to one being led astray.

You are presuming that traditions are all naturally contradicting the Sacred Scriptures. Traditions that contradict the Word of God are not truly traditions of the Apostolic Church.

Regards

 

[farouk]

'Thy Word is truth' (John 17.17). The Lord Jesus Himself said it. In the same context He spoke of the Word's sanctifying effect.

If we can't read and understand and follow the truth without a religious leader as an intermediary, then it's as if God has spoken through religious leaders rather than through the Scriptures.

John spoke of elders as 'fellow helpers to the truth', (3 John 8) which is different idea entirely from that of a supposed clerical mediator.

 

[Alabaster]

[/B]

Scriptures, please?

2 Timothy 3:15-17 NLT
15 You have been taught the holy Scriptures from childhood, and they have given you the wisdom to receive the salvation that comes by trusting in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. 17 God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work.


Scripture was even the authority that Jesus used repeatedly over Satan in the wilderness encounter.

Paul thinks otherwise. He over and over tells Church communities about the authority that he has over them... So does Jesus, for example, Matt 16 and Matt 18...

God sets in spiritual authorities over us, and He establishes local church fellowships for us all for our benefit, but the Church of Jesus Christ is the people. There is no organization that controls Christendom. Catholics believe this, but that is a totally extra-biblical belief and is only self-serving.

Paul says otherwise in 2 Thess 2:15, for example. The Word of God is not confined to written words. The Word of God is a PERSON - and Jesus told His Apostles to teach EVERYTHING I taught (which was not at that time written, nor has it been ALL written in Scriptures afterwards).

He doesn't say what you think. We are to listen to those in spiritual authority over us and what they teach us, but if it doesn't match up with the word of God, out it goes.

What has been written is what we have and nothing else, except for the inspiration the Holy Spirit gives to each of us individually FROM HIS WORD, in His own creative ways.

You are presuming that traditions are all naturally contradicting the Sacred Scriptures. Traditions that contradict the Word of God are not truly traditions of the Apostolic Church.

Regards

Many do, and many err. People focus on them rather than the word of God.

 

[francisdesales]

2 Timothy 3:15-17 NLT
15 You have been taught the holy Scriptures from childhood, and they have given you the wisdom to receive the salvation that comes by trusting in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. 17 God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work.

Where does this passage say that the Bible is of any authority next to Jesus Christ? The Bible has authority only because the Church RECOGNIZES where it came from, not because the Bible itself tells us its authority.

God sets in spiritual authorities over us, and He establishes local church fellowships for us all for our benefit, but the Church of Jesus Christ is the people. There is no organization that controls Christendom. Catholics believe this, but that is a totally extra-biblical belief and is only self-serving.

Authority is not for the purpose of "controlling" anything. However, ALL organizations require some such central authority if it hopes to present the Gospel fully unblemished. A decentralized "church" can never hope to do this.

If I recall, Jesus established ONE Church, one community of followers who would go out to the world as one organization.

He doesn't say what you think. We are to listen to those in spiritual authority over us and what they teach us, but if it doesn't match up with the word of God, out it goes.

Who decides, you??? You seem to be using American individualism as the paradigm of the Church instituted by Christ. In reality, we trust that God is protecting the Church as an entity, just as He promised He would. There is absolutely no provision in Scriptures for "deciding for myself" whether the Church is teaching the true Gospel. If we have located the True Church, it follows that we have the Truth, since Paul wrote that the CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of the Truth. Find the Church and you have found the Truth. YOU don't decide whether the Church teaches truth. You trust that God guards it, inhabits it, guides it to all truth.

Paul indeed says ALL that I taught you is to be followed. It teaches just what I think.

What has been written is what we have and nothing else, except for the inspiration the Holy Spirit gives to each of us individually FROM HIS WORD, in His own creative ways.

Where does the Bible say that only what is written is what we are to believe???

THis fact destroys the entire concept of sola scriptura. It is nowhere found in the Scriptures, thus making the whole idea self-defeating...

Many do, and many err. People focus on them rather than the word of God.

Yes, the first would be the invention of sola scriptura. Another would be the invention of sola fide...

Regards

 

[Alabaster]

Where does this passage say that the Bible is of any authority next to Jesus Christ? The Bible has authority only because the Church RECOGNIZES where it came from, not because the Bible itself tells us its authority.

The Body of Christ, believers are the Church. WE accept scripture as authoritative.

Authority is not for the purpose of "controlling" anything. However, ALL organizations require some such central authority if it hopes to present the Gospel fully unblemished. A decentralized "church" can never hope to do this.

If I recall, Jesus established ONE Church, one community of followers who would go out to the world as one organization.

The Body of Christ does use organizational means within its own local fellowships. I am not speaking denominationally, as I am non-denominational after the pattern of the New Testament church, but as there is a line of authority there, we have it here. But there is no central body such as the Roman Catholic church maintains.

Who decides, you??? You seem to be using American individualism as the paradigm of the Church instituted by Christ. In reality, we trust that God is protecting the Church as an entity, just as He promised He would. There is absolutely no provision in Scriptures for "deciding for myself" whether the Church is teaching the true Gospel. If we have located the True Church, it follows that we have the Truth, since Paul wrote that the CHURCH is the pillar and foundation of the Truth. Find the Church and you have found the Truth. YOU don't decide whether the Church teaches truth. You trust that God guards it, inhabits it, guides it to all truth.

Paul indeed says ALL that I taught you is to be followed. It teaches just what I think.

Holy Spirit's job is to maintain unity among the brethren in opening our hearts and minds to the truth about Jesus Christ and about how to live. He does the job well as we are open to His lead. Whether He leads us through our personal devotions and our daily walk with Him, or through the instruction of our leaders, it is all Him--not us as individuals. It has nothing to do with individualism.

Where does the Bible say that only what is written is what we are to believe???

THis fact destroys the entire concept of sola scriptura. It is nowhere found in the Scriptures, thus making the whole idea self-defeating...

It was the Body of Christ who compiled the canon of scripture in accordance to the will of God. We, the Body of Christ declare it as our authority.

Yes, the first would be the invention of sola scriptura. Another would be the invention of sola fide...

Regards

I don't even give those terms a thought. Never heard them before I came to internet forums and began talking to people from the Catholic church who seem to have either coined the terminology or use it a lot.

 

[francisdesales]

Dear craig, The RCC departed from the tradition(s) of the early Catholic Church. The RCC is not the Catholic Church. The Church that is truly Catholic and universal is the (Greek) Orthodox Church.

What a bunch of baloney. Such a statement shows an utter lack of reality.

Ask yourself, Scott, can this "truly Catholic and universal (Greek) Orthodox Church" convoke an Ecumenical Council? Have they, in 1000 years?

CAN THEY???

No, even the Greeks admit they cannot.

Why? Because they are not the universal Catholic Church but are in partial schism. If the Greeks cannot call an Ecumenical Council, they cannot define doctrine or defend the faith in a definitive way. Thus, they cannot be THE Catholic Church, since part of the power of the Catholic Church IS to bind and loosen for Christians. THe Greeks cannot do this. At all. THey are just a collection of national churches - apostolic and of lecit orders, but in schism, nonetheless.

Regards

 

[Alabaster]

The Authority of Scripture

Affirmation: God has all authority, and we accept the Bible as the primary authority by which God communicates to us what God wants us to believe and to do. The New Testament clarifies and sometimes supersedes the Old Testament guidance on faith and life.3 The primary purpose of the Bible is its message about salvation, and that is its primary sphere of authority. It is a sufficient guide that tells us how we might be given eternal life with God. Those who believe the biblical revelation about God's grace and Jesus Christ will be saved; those who do not believe will not be saved (John 3:18; 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 John 5:11-12). This message of salvation is essential.

The Bible also reveals divine commands and principles regarding the way we ought to live. A genuine faith in Christ as Lord and Savior transforms our lives and minds, with the result that our lives are brought progressively into greater submission to the will of God. Biblical instructions give us authoritative guidance on the will of God concerning how we should live and think and interact with one another.

The Bible is an authoritative revelation of truths about God, and we want to worship our Creator with as much understanding as possible. Moreover, we want to obey God's commands, not only to honor God but also because we believe that our all-wise and perfectly loving Creator has given us the best possible commands and guidance for life. Therefore, we want to understand the written message of God as best we can. But this is not always easy.

Humans are limited beings, and our minds are corrupted by sin, so even at our best we know only in part (1 Cor 13:12). Thus we find that the authority of God in the Bible is not only mediated by human language but also by our ability to understand its truths. Although our understanding is imperfect, the Bible is the standard by which our misunderstandings are corrected. God is able to give us sufficient understanding of biblical truths for us to have a saving relationship with God.

Inspiration, Authority, and Reliability of Scripture | Grace Communion International

 

[francisdesales]

The Authority of Scripture

Affirmation: God has all authority, and we accept the Bible as the primary authority by which God communicates to us what God wants us to believe and to do. The New Testament clarifies and sometimes supersedes the Old Testament guidance on faith and life.3 The primary purpose of the Bible is its message about salvation, and that is its primary sphere of authority. It is a sufficient guide that tells us how we might be given eternal life with God. Those who believe the biblical revelation about God's grace and Jesus Christ will be saved; those who do not believe will not be saved (John 3:18; 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 John 5:11-12). This message of salvation is essential.

The Bible also reveals divine commands and principles regarding the way we ought to live. A genuine faith in Christ as Lord and Savior transforms our lives and minds, with the result that our lives are brought progressively into greater submission to the will of God. Biblical instructions give us authoritative guidance on the will of God concerning how we should live and think and interact with one another.

The Bible is an authoritative revelation of truths about God, and we want to worship our Creator with as much understanding as possible. Moreover, we want to obey God's commands, not only to honor God but also because we believe that our all-wise and perfectly loving Creator has given us the best possible commands and guidance for life. Therefore, we want to understand the written message of God as best we can. But this is not always easy.

Humans are limited beings, and our minds are corrupted by sin, so even at our best we know only in part (1 Cor 13:12). Thus we find that the authority of God in the Bible is not only mediated by human language but also by our ability to understand its truths. Although our understanding is imperfect, the Bible is the standard by which our misunderstandings are corrected. God is able to give us sufficient understanding of biblical truths for us to have a saving relationship with God.

Inspiration, Authority, and Reliability of Scripture | Grace Communion International

Alabaster,

I don't want to sound like I am arguing against the inspiration and authority of the Bible. I love reading and studying the Bible. The Catholic Church reveres the Bible, and at the end of the day, we are indeed "prima scriptura", all doctrines must in some way correspond to what we find and have been taught from Scriptures.

The problem is when some of my brothers go too far and say that the Bible is the SOLE source of our faith, when clearly, it is not, nor was it ever intended to be the sole source of the Christian faith. ONE case in point is the Church's decision to not bind Gentile Christians to circumcise before becoming Christians (Acts 15). Note, there is absolutely no Scriptural warrant in 50 AD do make such a statement. Nevertheless, the Church did what she was led to do by the Spirit. The Church today operates under the same guidelines. She considers Divine Revelation, from whatever its source, oral or written, as from God. Thus, the ancient Church - and today - cannot comprehend or back the idea of "sola scriptura". It is unbiblical and was not practiced by the early Church.

Regards

 

[Alabaster]

Sorry, but I am part of the Church of Jesus Christ. There is no organization that controls the faithful, nor is the authority over all Christians. That is Jesus' position.

You are right when you say that the Bible isn't the sole source of our faith, because it isn't the source at all. It is Jesus, whose Spirit moves us by faith. It is Holy Spirit who teaches us things that we haven't even read from scripture yet. It is He who infuses us with His knowledge and His prophetic word outside of biblical text, but scripture supports it all...and must.

Jesus considered scripture authoritative. There are many times recorded where He would say, "Have you not read...?"

 

[jasoncran]

the catholics do condiser the bible as authorative just not as the only source of authority.