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Sola Scriptura?

Oh, so you aren't even Orthodox??? Then pray tell why YOU still refuse to enter into an Apostolic Church when you know it is teaching the true Gospel? What are you waiting for?
True. I am not baptized yet. That makes me not fully Orthodox not yet. But if you say FILIOQUE, you are not Orthodox either. I have just stopped saying FILIOQUE, that is all. I do need to do more and actually get to Church as soon as possible. Maybe I will just quite posting on this website for now. You obviously believe the pope can't fall into heresy, and so when someone says Filioque is heresy and the pope teaches Filioque, you do not WANT to listen to this. I do not know WHY.
 
Dear francisdesales, The Filioque is a clarification of nothing. It obscures and FALSIFIES Scripture and the WORDS OF JESUS CHRIST.

Considering you are not even an Orthodox, I would have to say your opinion on the matter is not worth much, it is just more polemics from someone raised to hate Rome. And why do you continue to ignore Sacred Scriptures???

You have given absolutely NO PROOF for your position. You just state it as if that was enough. Pope Scott speaks...

Nowhere does the Bible state that the Spirit proceeds ONLY from the Father. It specifically states that the Son sends the Spirit, as well. He breathed upon the Apostles, confering the Holy Spirit!!!

As a Protestant, I would THINK you would have more respect for the Bible. Apparently, you don't. You should ask God for forgiveness and wisdom to open your heart to the fact that you are wrong.

And we return to my very first post to you... Those who refuse the Filioque are not interested in Scriptures, they are interested in polemics against the "affront" that the Catholic Church did against the Orthodox, how dare they...

I've had this discussion before, in MUCH more depth than you could hope to provide or understand. I am utterly convinced that the Greek position stands solely upon the fact that they feel they were left out of the discussion in defining the doctrine. Thus, they must attempt to refute it, ignore the Scriptures, even though their greatest Fathers agreed with it, as I already mentioned. I am convinced the whole affair is a big misunderstanding that stems from the Greeks unwilling to listen to the Catholic explain their position.

Regards
 
1 Corinthians 4:6
I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

Deuteronomy 4:2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

If "solo scriptura" is not the intent of God, why does Jesus rebuke the pharisees when they went "beyond what is written?"

Mark 7:1-13

1Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.

2And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.

3For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.

4And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

5Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

6He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men
, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

10For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

11But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.

12And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

If you add to the Word of God by traditions and extra-Biblical authority, then you are guilty of doing what the Jews do. The Jews which hold their midrash and talmud and other contradicting and blasphemous writings of the scribes and sages.

They pronounce the talmud as superior to the Word of God revealed by Moses openly, but all who reject sola scriptura declare the same subtly, supposing man knows better than God; that "church fathers" so called may perfect on the testimony of the prophets and apostles.
 
Requiring money as a penance to build St. Peter's cathedral?
That is a distinction without a difference.

Wrong. You would have to understand how Confession works in the Apostolic Churches, Rome and the Orthodox. A person's sins are forgiven when he confesses them to our Lord through the priest. Forgiveness for sin is not dependent upon conducting the penance. We don't go back to the priest and report on the success of fulfilling the penance. The problem, again, is your lack of understanding on Catholic theology (in this case, Orthodox theology, as well).
 
True. I am not baptized yet.

Now you have me confused. I thought you said you were Christian. That presumes you already were baptized. If your baptism was validly performed (most Protestants baptize with water in the name of the trinity, as the Church intends), you are Christian and don't have to be baptized again, whether you enter the Latin or the Orthodox Church, that shouldn't matter.

That makes me not fully Orthodox not yet. But if you say FILIOQUE, you are not Orthodox either.

No, I am Catholic, I am not Greek Orthodox.

I have just stopped saying FILIOQUE, that is all. I do need to do more and actually get to Church as soon as possible. Maybe I will just quite posting on this website for now. You obviously believe the pope can't fall into heresy, and so when someone says Filioque is heresy and the pope teaches Filioque, you do not WANT to listen to this. I do not know WHY.

Please address the Scriptures I have posted. Stop living in your little comfort zone where Scott is his own bishop and come back into reality. THe Bible itself says that the Son of God sends forth the Spirit. Why do you continue to ignore this? I sense you need to do some serious prayer.
 
What church has the deeds of the Nicolaitanes? (Conquer the Laity/people) What church eats things sacrificed the graven images, and adorns their assembly with such idols? What church is also known to have good works?

Oh, I haven't heard that for awhile. Did you ever wonder that "Nicolatians" can mean quite the opposite, "the lay people conquer the clergy whom God has placed over His people???"

All Christians have good works - otherwise, their faith cannot save. James makes that very clear.

Regards
 
Oh, I haven't heard that for awhile. Did you ever wonder that "Nicolatians" can mean quite the opposite, "the lay people conquer the clergy whom God has placed over His people???"

All Christians have good works - otherwise, their faith cannot save. James makes that very clear.

Regards

without agreeing with you, what evidence do you have to support that it DOES mean the people conquer the clergy as opposed to "maybe possibly"?
 
More of the same "begging the question". Here, let me correct your statement...

Some Greeks disobeyed God the Holy Spirit, and refused to listen to their bishops that returned from Florence, stating "I WILL NOT SERVE THE LORD"... The Scriptures clearly state that the Son of God also sends the Spirit. But you refuse to address it, prefering your faulty logic of "I said so"...



Impossible. Rome was never in heresy. Constantinople's patriarchs had a tradition of being in heresy, not the Bishop of Rome. Look to the greatest Eastern saints - who did they turn to when their own patriarchs attempted to force them from the faith once given? Athanasius, Maximus the Confessor, John Chrysostom, the Cappadocians. I am going from memory, but I think the Patriarch of Constantinople was accused and removed from office for heresy nearly 20 times in 1000 years. The Eastern Church was OFTEN in schism, even before 1000 AD. It appears that people in the East just don't want to listen to authority, unless it is their own.



Ever consider it was the other way around, that God allowed the Greeks to suffer because the Greeks THEMSELVES refused to listen to their own bishops, men who were speaking for God??? :chin



Yawn...

And John 20 speaks of the Lord Jesus Christ confering the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles without the Father. Really, Scott, you need to read my posts, I already addressed this several times. The Scriptural witness is against the Orthodox. As a former Protestant, you should be able to understand what that means.

Regards
Dear francisdesales, In the middle ages, there were "three popes". Also, every bishop of the early church was called "pope", papa, "Father".
You don't like to refer to St. Leo III and he obeyed God by forbidding FILIOQUE.
How could someone forbid something if it is truly CATHOLIC?
You dodge this question.
What about St. Leo III? He FORBAD the FILIOQUE. Later popes DEFENDED THE FILIOQUE AND INSISTED ON IT. Which pope is it? Later popes, of Pope Saint Leo III. Which pope is without heresy?
Someone must be wrong when popes contradict each other.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
 
If "solo scriptura" is not the intent of God, why does Jesus rebuke the pharisees when they went "beyond what is written?"

Read Mark 7 more carefully. The problem is not traditions in of themselves, since Jesus Himself followed Traditions. The problem is when they attempted to circumvent the Law. Note the example Jesus gives - it is an attempt to hide one's money in the Temple (like a bank) so that this person didn't have to support their parents (a commandment of God). Thus, this teaching is at odds with the Torah. Jesus never rebukes the Pharisees for going "beyond what's written", because midrash and other oral tradition was part and parcel of the Jewish faith.

Btw, the Jews do NOT hold their traditions as above written Scriptures. This is a blatant error. I would say there are few religions who respect Sacred Scriptures more than the Orthodox Jew. Their EXTENSIVE midrash is commentary on that same Scriptures.

Regards
 
i have met all of my jewish family through fb and none of them are orthodox, as most synagouges aren orthodox but reformed. if they are true orthodox then they will vote with us on these moral issues.

alas, seldom in my family do i see that.
 
without agreeing with you, what evidence do you have to support that it DOES mean the people conquer the clergy as opposed to "maybe possibly"?

If one was to take the root of the word, it can be interpreted either way in the Greek. There is no evidence from the word itself what is meant without context. And quite frankly, there is no commentary on the exact nature of this heresy by any Christian writing. Thus, it is pure conjecture to make your statement. We do know that it was a relatively unimportant heresy, because there seems to be no more said about it by the Church Fathers, besides its mention in Revelation. All we have is some speculation from a couple of them. This indicates that even they (hardly removed, time-wise) didn't really know what the Nicolatians believed or was about.

Regards
 
Dear francisdesales,

Scott, until you address the Scriptures that I have already noted on the Filioque, is there really any point of making yourself look more desperate and foolish than already is apparent? Your refusal to even consider those Scriptures says volumes...

So until then, I will ignore your weak attempts to bring down the Catholic Church.
 
[/B]

Scriptures, please?

[/B]

Paul thinks otherwise. He over and over tells Church communities about the authority that he has over them... So does Jesus, for example, Matt 16 and Matt 18...




Paul says otherwise in 2 Thess 2:15, for example. The Word of God is not confined to written words. The Word of God is a PERSON - and Jesus told His Apostles to teach EVERYTHING I taught (which was not at that time written, nor has it been ALL written in Scriptures afterwards).



You are presuming that traditions are all naturally contradicting the Sacred Scriptures. Traditions that contradict the Word of God are not truly traditions of the Apostolic Church.

Regards
Dear francisdesales,

What you say about patron saints makes some sense. The Orthodox also have patron saints, and they ask the Saints for their intercession with Christ, especially the Blessed Theotokos. But the Romanists go too far with their doctrine of immaculate conception of Mary. If Mary were that, she would be a fourth member of the Godhead, and that is impossible. Whatever is conceived without sin is God. If Mary were that, she would be divine. Mary had the ancestral sin, as the Orthodox church states it. Not original sin or original guilt, there is no guilt for the sin of Adam, each soul is responsible for its own sins (Ezekiel 18, q.v.).
Mary the Blessed Mother of God and ever-virgin THEOTOKOS was the first Christian to be saved by Jesus Christ our Lord God and Saviour. In Erie Scott Harrington

PS It's just that I'm just one man, and have no way of putting in icons, if it matters. I am only human. I could use a patron saint to pray for me. I have been very sinful, and I need God's forgiveness in Christ, and Christ's prayers, and the Virgin's prayers, and the Saints' prayers.
:praying
 
Scott, until you address the Scriptures that I have already noted on the Filioque, is there really any point of making yourself look more desperate and foolish than already is apparent? Your refusal to even consider those Scriptures says volumes...

So until then, I will ignore your weak attempts to bring down the Catholic Church.
Dear francisdesales, You falsely accuse me of something I am not attempting to do. The popes of Rome concede much to the Orthodox when they recite the Creed without the Filioque. If they are truly Catholic, they should have always done that, and not needed the Orthodox Church to remind them of the truth. Since they fell into ERROR BECAUSE OF CHARLEMAGNE, we are not talking about the same CATHOLIC CHURCH. CHARLEMAGNE WAS A FRANK, and rent asunder the BODY OF CHRIST. He taught the FILIOQUE HERESY. It is largely due to CHARLEMAGNE that the POPE OF ROME SINCE 1014 AD IS IN HERESY AND SCHISM. THE POPES RESISTED THE FILIOQUE UNTIL 1013-14 AD, WHEN THEY FELL INTO ERROR.
In Erie Scott Harrington
PS It is you, not me, who is refusing to take John 15:26 seriously.I take all the Scriptures seriously, especially the words of Jesus Christ, which speak against the people who say "FILIOQUE".
You can't use other Scriptures to CONTRADICT our LORD GOD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST.
Sending from does not mean the same thing as proceeding from. Send from means send from. Proceed from means proceed from. That is THE GOSPEL.
:praying
 
semantics.

i proceed to do something

vs i send to something

delineate proceed from the father.
 
Dear francisdesales,

What you say about patron saints makes some sense. The Orthodox also have patron saints, and they ask the Saints for their intercession with Christ, especially the Blessed Theotokos. But the Romanists go too far with their doctrine of immaculate conception of Mary.

Perhaps you are not familiar with the ToS of this site regarding Catholic doctrine?

3 -...Discussion of Catholic doctrine will be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum and End Times forum only. Do not start new topics elsewhere or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is Catholic in nature.

4 - No Trolling:

You will not post anything that disrupts the peace and harmony of this forum. Don't make inflammatory remarks just to get a response. This will also include posts that put down Christianity in general or any posts considered as blasphemy by staff (this is a CHRISTIAN FORUMS site).


I tire of your shotgun approach. Why don't you stick to the Filioque and show me the Scriptures. Now, if you continue, I'm afraid I'll have to notify the Moderators, because it is quite obvious you are not interested in discussing theology by your ignoring of the Bible verses I posted on the Filioque. You are interested in polemics and your constant postings show your heart.

Regards
 
Dear francisdesales, In the middle ages, there were "three popes". Also, every bishop of the early church was called "pope", papa, "Father".
You don't like to refer to St. Leo III and he obeyed God by forbidding FILIOQUE.
How could someone forbid something if it is truly CATHOLIC?
You dodge this question.
What about St. Leo III? He FORBAD the FILIOQUE. Later popes DEFENDED THE FILIOQUE AND INSISTED ON IT. Which pope is it? Later popes, of Pope Saint Leo III. Which pope is without heresy?
Someone must be wrong when popes contradict each other.
In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington
Dear francisdesales, You seem just to have not heard the real story of the Council of Florence. Saint Mark of Ephesus stood up for the truth, and refused to sign a union with the pope of Rome. See: THE LIVES OF THE PILLARS OF ORTHODOXY. Holy Apostles Convent, Buena Vista, CO, copyright 1990. See also: Nicholas Ostroumoff, A History of the Council of Florence. Boston, MA: Holy Transfiguration Monastery, q.v.
As for the Filioque, the following logical statements need to be discussed and considered. We read [Siecienski (2010)]: "Photius's chief arguments, which became the foundation upon which the Orthodox case against the "filioque" was built, can be summarized as follows:
1. If "the Father is one source of the Son and the Holy Spirit, and the Son is another source of the Holy Spirit, the monarchy of the Holy Trinity is transformed into a dual divinity.
2. "If his [that is, the Spirit's] procession from the Father is perfect and complete -- and it is perfect, because he is perfect God from perfect God -- then why is there also a procession from the Son?"
3. "If the Son participates in the quality or property of the Father's own person, then the Son and the Spirit lose their own personal distinctions. Here one falls into semi-Sabellianism."
4. "Because the Father is the principle and source, not because of the nature of the divinity but because of the property of his own hypostasis ... the Son cannot be a principle or source".
5. "By the teaching of the procession from the Son also, the Father and the Son end up being closer to each other than the Father and the Spirit, since the Son possesses not only the Father's nature but also the property of his person [that is, of being a principle or source of the Spirit]."
6. The procession of the Spirit from the Son makes the Son a father of the Spirit's being; thus "it is impossible to see why the Holy Spirit could not be called a grandson!" (page 101. A. Edward Siecienski. THE FILIOQUE: History of a Doctrinal Controversy. Oxford Studies In Historical Theology. New York: Oxford University Press).
See: Photios, The Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit (English translation). Farrell, Joseph P. , trans. (1987). Brookline, MA: Holy Cross Orthodox Press.

GOD SAVE ALL OF US. In Erie Scott Harrington
:praying
 
Perhaps you are not familiar with the ToS of this site regarding Catholic doctrine?

3 -...Discussion of Catholic doctrine will be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum and End Times forum only. Do not start new topics elsewhere or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is Catholic in nature.

4 - No Trolling:

You will not post anything that disrupts the peace and harmony of this forum. Don't make inflammatory remarks just to get a response. This will also include posts that put down Christianity in general or any posts considered as blasphemy by staff (this is a CHRISTIAN FORUMS site).


I tire of your shotgun approach. Why don't you stick to the Filioque and show me the Scriptures. Now, if you continue, I'm afraid I'll have to notify the Moderators, because it is quite obvious you are not interested in discussing theology by your ignoring of the Bible verses I posted on the Filioque. You are interested in polemics and your constant postings show your heart.

Regards


Dear francisdesales, What did I do wrong?
As for FILIOQUE, If you want to believe it, you are going to have to explain why Jesus did not say that in John 15:26. Jesus can speak for Himself, but in the Bible we hear what Jesus says, and why is it that you do not hear Him say "from the Father"? KJV, etc. Any English translation. I am not the ignoring any Bible verses. You repeatedly ignore what Christ says in John 15:26. Why?
Scott R. Harrington
There is not one verse that teaches that Spirit "of" the Son means the same as Spirit "from" the Son? Where are the words in the NT, "who proceeds from the Son"?
:praying
 
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