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Some of the best NT verses threatening loss of salvation

Walpole said:
Anti-Trinitarians also think the Scripture does an excellent job of supporting their position.

My point is that you cannot arrive at an orthodox Trinitarian theology or Christology via sola Scriptura. This was evidenced at Nicea.

Great point.
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Your first paragraph is correct.
It took early theologians to arrive at the concept of the Trinity.
It can be found in scripture,,,but it would have been difficult to deduce it only from that.

Was Jesus a man?
Was He divine?
How much of Him was human/how much divine?
What does I AM mean?
What does The Son of Man mean?

etc.
 
Walpole said:
I'm trying not to miss any of the posts directed at me.

No, not all Protestants oppose Arius / Arianism. Many early heresies such as Arianism come back and are re-branded as something else. For example, ever hear of the Jehovah's Witnesses? They are neo-Arians.

Ever hear of a popular Evangelical pastor named John MacArthur? He fell into Arianism when he embraced something called "Incarnational Sonship". He has since rejected this view, but he embraced it for quite a while.
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The JW's?
Ha!

We have mainline churches that are splitting off because they don't believe Jesus is God.

I don't know what Incarnational Sonship is,,,but it sounds like Jesus was created by God Father to come to earth.

We have many strange ideas floating around in churches today. I'm afraid the CC is also being infected...and I don't mean by the parishioners....

I think McArthur is Calvinist?
And we could thank Augustine for putting the idea in the head of the reformers....
 
Walpole said:
Now here is my point: Why would Protestants accept the Creed of the Church it rejects?
Click to expand...
First, you need to rephrase your question. I (we) do not reject the Church (capital "C") nor the Creed of the Church for we are part of the Church. We reject some of the modern Roman Catholic church doctrines and traditions, which are not of the same church that it was when the creed was written. I (we) believe the RCC has strayed from what it was in 325 A.D. I won't go any further into this for I believe Reverend Martin Luther already expressed it.
 
wondering said:
My last too:

Every church that is CHRISTIAN MUST believe in the Nicene Creed...otherwise it is NOT Christian.

Catholic only means universal...it was the universal church then...sometimes I see universal in parenthesis.

The creed is not describing a church.....
it's describing a creed...
A credo....
Something we believe in as Christians.

It doesn't matter what church made it up....it's our faith.
If the mormons had a very good creed, we might even use that (but they wouldn't of course).

creed
/kriːd/
noun

  1. a system of religious belief; a faith.
    "people of many creeds and cultures"
    synonyms:faith, religion, religious belief(s), religious persuasion, religious conviction, religious group, faith community, church; More
    • a formal statement of Christian beliefs, especially the Apostles' Creed or the Nicene Creed.
      noun: Creed; noun: the Creed
      "the godparents will then swear that they believe in the Creed and the Commandments"
      synonyms:system of belief, set of principles, statement of beliefs, profession of faith; More
    • a set of beliefs or aims which guide someone's actions.
      "liberalism was more than a political creed"
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But the Creed DOES describe a Church and professes a belief in it.

"...I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church."

The very Church described by the words of the Creed is the Church Protestants positively reject. The Nicene Creed was composed by Catholic bishops defending the faith of the Catholic Church.
 
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wondering said:
Your first paragraph is correct.
It took early theologians to arrive at the concept of the Trinity.
It can be found in scripture,,,but it would have been difficult to deduce it only from that.

Was Jesus a man?
Was He divine?
How much of Him was human/how much divine?
What does I AM mean?
What does The Son of Man mean?

etc.
Click to expand...


It took the successors of the Apostles to declare the faith of the Church. Here is the Doctor of Trinitarian orthodoxy describing it...

"See, we are proving that this view has been transmitted from father to father; but you, O modern Jews and disciples of Caiaphas, how many fathers can you assign to your phrases? Not one of the understanding and wise; for all abhor you, but the devil alone ; none but he is your father in this apostasy, who both in the beginning sowed you with the seed of this irreligion, and now persuades you to slander the Ecumenical Council [Nicea], for committing to writing, not your doctrines, but that which from the beginning those who were eye-witnesses and ministers of the Word have handed down to us. For the faith which the Council has confessed in writing, that is the faith of the Catholic Church; to assert this, the blessed Fathers so expressed themselves while condemning the Arian heresy; and this is a chief reason why these apply themselves to calumniate the Council. For it is not the terms which trouble them, but that those terms prove them to be heretics, and presumptuous beyond other heresies." - St. Athanasius, De Decretis, VI, 27
 
wondering said:
The JW's?
Ha!
Click to expand...

Yes, the JW's, Ha.

There are others, such as Oneness Pentecostals as well.

wondering said:
We have mainline churches that are splitting off because they don't believe Jesus is God.
Click to expand...

Very true and very sad. I find many are unable to answer the most important question ever posed: "Who do men say that I am?"

wondering said:
I don't know what Incarnational Sonship is,,,but it sounds like Jesus was created by God Father to come to earth.
Click to expand...

It is Arianism rebranded. MacArthur has since recanted of this belief, but nonetheless he held it, taught it and mislead countless followers.

"There was a time when he was not." - Arius

"His sonship began in a point of time, not in eternity. His life as Son began in this world." - John MacArthur (Source

wondering said:
We have many strange ideas floating around in churches today. I'm afraid the CC is also being infected...and I don't mean by the parishioners....
Click to expand...

Very true.

wondering said:
I think McArthur is Calvinist?
And we could thank Augustine for putting the idea in the head of the reformers....
Click to expand...

MacArthur is indeed a Calvinist.

And no, St. Augustine was most certainly not a proto-Calvinist.
 
WIP said:
First, you need to rephrase your question. I (we) do not reject the Church (capital "C") nor the Creed of the Church for we are part of the Church. We reject some of the modern Roman Catholic church doctrines and traditions, which are not of the same church that it was when the creed was written. I (we) believe the RCC has strayed from what it was in 325 A.D. I won't go any further into this for I believe Reverend Martin Luther already expressed it.
Click to expand...

Protestants reject the very Church which is described by the words of the Creed. The Nicene Creed was composed by Catholic bishops defending the faith of the Catholic Church. I posted this in an earlier thread, but here are some of the things this very Church which composed the Creed also did at the very same Council...

- Declared Christ as the same substance (ὁμοούσιον, consubstantialem) of the Father - contra sola Scriptura (Ecthesis of the Council)
- Supported the discipline of celibacy and clerical continence (Canon 3)
- Instructed on preserving valid Apostolic succession by requiring three bishops present for the consecration of subsequent bishops (Canon 4)
- Declaring Rome as the authority to grant jurisdiction to other Churches (Canon 6)
- Ruled on ordaining men to the priesthood (Canons 9 & 10)
- Instructed on giving viaticum to the dying (Canon 13)
- Instructed regarding catechumens (Canon 14)
- Affirmed the ordained episcopate, priesthood and deaconate (Canon 18)
- Explicitly referred to the Eucharist as the literal “Body of Christ" (Canon 18)
- Explicitly referred to the priests and bishops as they who "offer" the Eucharistic sacrifice. (Canon 18)


These are but a few examples, all of which are rejected by Protestants.

I am just trying to understand the logic in using a Creed composed by a Church with which one protests.
 
Walpole said:
Protestants reject the very Church which is described by the words of the Creed. The Nicene Creed was composed by Catholic bishops defending the faith of the Catholic Church. I posted this in an earlier thread, but here are some of the things this very Church which composed the Creed also did at the very same Council...

- Declared Christ as the same substance (ὁμοούσιον, consubstantialem) of the Father - contra sola Scriptura (Ecthesis of the Council)
- Supported the discipline of celibacy and clerical continence (Canon 3)
- Instructed on preserving valid Apostolic succession by requiring three bishops present for the consecration of subsequent bishops (Canon 4)
- Declaring Rome as the authority to grant jurisdiction to other Churches (Canon 6)
- Ruled on ordaining men to the priesthood (Canons 9 & 10)
- Instructed on giving viaticum to the dying (Canon 13)
- Instructed regarding catechumens (Canon 14)
- Affirmed the ordained episcopate, priesthood and deaconate (Canon 18)
- Explicitly referred to the Eucharist as the literal “Body of Christ" (Canon 18)
- Explicitly referred to the priests and bishops as they who "offer" the Eucharistic sacrifice. (Canon 18)


These are but a few examples, all of which are rejected by Protestants.

I am just trying to understand the logic in using a Creed composed by a Church with which one protests.
Click to expand...
In the same way I can believe and put my faith and trust in the one and only Lord of lords, Blessed Savior, King of Kings, Wonderful Counselor, Lamb of God, Messiah, Redeemer, Good Shepherd, the Way, the Truth, the Life, Bread of Life, Prince of Peace, Mighty God, Jesus of Nazareth.
 
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WIP said:
Just as easily as I can believe and put my faith and trust in the one and only Lord of lords, Blessed Savior, King of Kings, Wonderful Counselor, Lamb of God, Messiah, Redeemer, Good Shepherd, the Way, the Truth, the Life, Bread of Life, Prince of Peace, Mighty God, Jesus of Nazareth.
Click to expand...


I think that would be better than paying lip service to a Creed you actually don't believe. Simply reciting a Creed without knowing the context and meaning of the words in which it was composed is illogical. The first words of the Creed state, "I believe..." But if you don't actually believe it, but instead actually reject the Church which composed it and which it describes, why exactly are you reciting it?
 
I don't reject the Church that composed it. The Church that composed it is not the same Church claiming the title Roman Catholic church of today.
 
WIP said:
I don't reject the Church that composed it. The Church that composed it is not the same Church claiming the title Roman Catholic church of today.
Click to expand...

You don't reject the authority of Rome over the Church universal?

You don't reject the Eucharist as the actual body of Christ?

You don't reject the Catholic priesthood?

You don't reject a celibate priesthood?

You don't reject Catholic Apostolic succession?

These are all things the Church which composed the Creed also affirmed at the very same Council. If you don't accept these things, you reject the Church that composed the Creed you recite.
 
Walpole said:
It took the successors of the Apostles to declare the faith of the Church. Here is the Doctor of Trinitarian orthodoxy describing it...

"See, we are proving that this view has been transmitted from father to father; but you, O modern Jews and disciples of Caiaphas, how many fathers can you assign to your phrases? Not one of the understanding and wise; for all abhor you, but the devil alone ; none but he is your father in this apostasy, who both in the beginning sowed you with the seed of this irreligion, and now persuades you to slander the Ecumenical Council [Nicea], for committing to writing, not your doctrines, but that which from the beginning those who were eye-witnesses and ministers of the Word have handed down to us. For the faith which the Council has confessed in writing, that is the faith of the Catholic Church; to assert this, the blessed Fathers so expressed themselves while condemning the Arian heresy; and this is a chief reason why these apply themselves to calumniate the Council. For it is not the terms which trouble them, but that those terms prove them to be heretics, and presumptuous beyond other heresies." - St. Athanasius, De Decretis, VI, 27
Click to expand...
Is the above Athenasias?
 
Walpole said:
Yes, the JW's, Ha.

There are others, such as Oneness Pentecostals as well.



Very true and very sad. I find many are unable to answer the most important question ever posed: "Who do men say that I am?"



It is Arianism rebranded. MacArthur has since recanted of this belief, but nonetheless he held it, taught it and mislead countless followers.

"There was a time when he was not." - Arius

"His sonship began in a point of time, not in eternity. His life as Son began in this world." - John MacArthur (Source



Very true.



MacArthur is indeed a Calvinist.

And no, St. Augustine was most certainly not a proto-Calvinist.
Click to expand...
Yes, the most important question ever posed to a person...and which we each need to answer for ourselves.
I also see Arianism alive and living...I think I mentioned this in my post.

You don't think Augustine was a prototype of Calvinism?
They love to point to him for their belief that everything is predestined and Augustine is the first one to INVENT this idea.

It's not the same as calvinism --- they made it much more extreme and I'm not sure I can even explain the difference...Augustine said God is responsible for everything, even sin. This is true in the sense that nothing happens unless God wants it to. But He certainly is not the author of sin or evil --- as some think quoting that verse in Isaiah,
Isaiah 45:7

I just looked and can't find anything that explains what Augustine believed very well.

Would you want to check this out:

https://philnotesblog.wordpress.com/2017/08/24/theological-determinism/
 
WIP said:
I don't reject the Church that composed it. The Church that composed it is not the same Church claiming the title Roman Catholic church of today.
Click to expand...
I have to say that the CC is much better today.
I don't know what you cannot accept about it today that was not present in the 4th century.
 
wondering said:
Yes, the most important question ever posed to a person...and which we each need to answer for ourselves.
I also see Arianism alive and living...I think I mentioned this in my post.

You don't think Augustine was a prototype of Calvinism?
They love to point to him for their belief that everything is predestined and Augustine is the first one to INVENT this idea.

It's not the same as calvinism --- they made it much more extreme and I'm not sure I can even explain the difference...Augustine said God is responsible for everything, even sin. This is true in the sense that nothing happens unless God wants it to. But He certainly is not the author of sin or evil --- as some think quoting that verse in Isaiah,
Isaiah 45:7

I just looked and can't find anything that explains what Augustine believed very well.

Would you want to check this out:

https://philnotesblog.wordpress.com/2017/08/24/theological-determinism/
Click to expand...

I’ll read your link and comment later when I have some free time.

Really enjoying the discussion.

God bless.
 
Walpole said:
St. Athanasius, yes.

—> https://books.google.com/books?id=IYLYAAAAMAAJ&dq=St. Athanasius, De Decretis&pg=PA168#v=onepage&q&f=false
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There's a 10 volume set of the ECF, anti-Nicene, that I wish I could get. I have to try one of these days.

Are you familiar with it?
I live in Italy but I'm American and can read Italian but don't retain it. If you speak another language you know what I mean.

It has all the writings of the most important ECF.

There are some reasons we should be paying more attention to them,,,

When I bring them up, I'm often told they weren't inspired.
Not so much on this forum the way it's set up now. Happily.
 
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