[_ Old Earth _] Some of the books which changed an atheist's view...

[Gary]

Anthony Flew is no longer Anthony the fool.
Psalm 14:1

Even though he doesn't believe in your God?

Gary: Some people take longer to get to the truth. I pray that he finds the true, living God as experienced by billions of people in their relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ.

Not so long ago he was a raging atheist; saying that he could NEVER see himself believing in a Creator. That has changed. This is one step in the right direction. Now he says he cannot see himself accepting Christianity. Note his comments about our Lord Jesus Christ....... THAT is how people eventually get to understand God.

Even "clever" people can get to experience God IF they are honest seekers...

HABERMAS: C. S. Lewis explained in his autobiography that he moved first from atheism to theism and only later from theism to Christianity. Given your great respect for Christianity, do you think that there is any chance that you might in the end move from theism to Christianity?

FLEW: I think it’s very unlikely, due to the problem of evil. But, if it did happen, I think it would be in some eccentric fit and doubtfully orthodox form: regular religious practice perhaps but without belief. If I wanted any sort of future life I should become a Jehovah’s Witness. But some things I am completely confident about. I would never regard Islam with anything but horror and fear because it is fundamentally committed to conquering the world for Islam. It was because the whole of Palestine was part of the land of Islam that Muslim Arab armies moved in to try to destroy Israel at birth, and why the struggle for the return of the still surviving refugees and their numerous descendents continue to this day.

HABERMAS: I ask this last question with a smile, Tony. But just think what would happen if one day you were pleasantly disposed toward Christianity and all of a sudden the resurrection of Jesus looked pretty good to you?

FLEW: Well, one thing I’ll say in this comparison is that, for goodness sake, Jesus is an enormously attractive charismatic figure, which the Prophet of Islam most emphatically is not.

http://www.biola.edu/antonyflew/page6.cfm

Dear Friends:
The following is an exclusive interview that will be published in the Winter 2004 issue of “Philosophia Christi†the journal of the Evangelical Philosophical Society (http://www.biola.edu/philchristi). “Philosophia Christi†is one of the top circulating philosophy of religion journals in the world and we are pleased to offer up the definitive interview on this breaking story of global interest.

Prof. Antony Flew, 81 years old, is a legendary British philosopher and atheist and has been an icon and champion for unbelievers for decades. His change of mind is significant news, not only about his personal journey, but also about the persuasive power of the arguments modern theists have been using to challenge atheistic naturalism.

The interviewer is Dr. Gary Habermas, a prolific philosopher and historian from Liberty University who has debated Flew several times. They have maintained a friendship despite their years of disagreement on the existence of God.

Sincerely,
Craig J. Hazen, Ph.D.
Professor of Comparative Religion, Biola University
Editor, “Philosophia Christiâ€Â

DR. ANTONY FLEW
Professor of Philosophy
Former atheist, author, and debater

DR. GARY R. HABERMAS
Professor Philosophy and Theology
Editorial Board for “Philosophia Christiâ€Â

Antony Flew and Gary Habermas met in February 1985 in Dallas, Texas. The occasion was a series of debates between atheists and theists, featuring many influential philosophers, scientists, and other scholars. (1)

A short time later, in May 1985, Flew and Habermas debated at Liberty University before a large audience. The topic that night was the resurrection of Jesus. (2) Although Flew was arguably the world’s foremost philosophical atheist, he had intriguingly also earned the distinction of being one of the chief philosophical commentators on the topic of miracles. (3) Habermas specialized on the subject of Jesus’ resurrection. (4) Thus, the ensuing dialogue on the historical evidence for the central Christian claim was a natural outgrowth of their research.

Over the next twenty years, Flew and Habermas developed a friendship, writing dozens of letters, talking often, and dialoguing twice more on the resurrection. In April 2000 they participated in a live debate on the Inspiration Television Network, moderated by John Ankerberg. (5) In January 2003 they again dialogued on the resurrection at California Polytechnic State University–San Luis Obispo. (6)

During a couple telephone discussions shortly after their last dialogue, Flew explained to Habermas that he was considering becoming a theist. While Flew did not change his position at that time, he concluded that certain philosophical and scientific considerations were causing him to do some serious rethinking. He characterized his position as that of atheism standing in tension with several huge question marks.

Then, a year later, in January 2004, Flew informed Habermas that he had indeed become a theist. While still rejecting the concept of special revelation, whether Christian, Jewish or Islamic, nonetheless he had concluded that theism was true. In Flew’s words, he simply “had to go where the evidence leads.†(7)

The following interview took place in early 2004 and was subsequently modified by both participants throughout the year. This nontechnical discussion sought to engage Flew over the course of several topics that reflect his move from atheism to theism. (8) The chief purpose was not to pursue the details of any particular issue, so we bypassed many avenues that would have presented a plethora of other intriguing questions and responses. These were often tantalizingly ignored, left to ripen for another discussion. Neither did we try to persuade each another of alternate positions.

Our singular purpose was simply to explore and report Flew’s new position, allowing him to explain various aspects of his pilgrimage. We thought that this in itself was a worthy goal. Along the way, an additional benefit emerged, as Flew reminisced about various moments from his childhood, graduate studies, and career.

http://www.biola.edu/antonyflew/index.cfm
http://www.biola.edu/antonyflew/page2.cfm
http://www.biola.edu/antonyflew/page3.cfm
http://www.biola.edu/antonyflew/page4.cfm
http://www.biola.edu/antonyflew/page5.cfm
http://www.biola.edu/antonyflew/page6.cfm



One step at a time........

 

[Asimov]

Atheism is for the foolish at heart.

According to scripture it is a dead give away that someone is a fool.

Finality is very sobering.

Psalms 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

It is a good place to start.

Wake up Anthony!

Ah, the Hebrew word used in Psalms 14 leans more towards one who is immoral, wicked, or vile, not unintelligent. Obviously untrue, unless you're berean.

Although, you misrepresent atheism, berean, atheism is merely a lack of disbelief, not an absolute statement on the existence of God.

 

[reznwerks]

sales

Atheism is for the foolish at heart.
Not really. Lacking belief in something that has no evidence is not foolish it's normal. Believing in that which the mind and body know deep down is not possible is dishonest to ones self.

According to scripture it is a dead give away that someone is a fool.
The "scripture" has been shown time and time again to not be reliable nor accurate. The scripture is not a textbook as it cannot be relied on in most cases. In order for anyone to understand the book one must interpret, let others interpret, and convince themselves that what is written is not really what is meant.
Finality is very sobering.

Psalms 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.


It is a good place to start.

Wake up Anthony! Well if you all want to embrace Flew's new found awakening why don't embrace his concept as well? This brilliant man flat out said he doesn't believe in the revealed Gods of Christianity and Islam and that is after he read all those books. What does he know that you don't? This man is far more learned than anyone on this board and the best he could come up with is that it appears life may have an intelligent originator. Again note that this is only an opinion as even Flew offerered no evidence to confirm his belief of which I don't have a problem with. If he wants to look at the complexities of life and infer a creator that is a deduction based on logical thinking.By what rational do you base your belief in the bible God considering we have no evidence whatsoever for the real life existance of Jesus, his promises , his miracles etc?

 

[bibleberean]

I don't want to embrace Anthony Flew's new found Philosophy.

I stated that he took a step up.

He went from "fool" to a man who finally had to admit that this universe was created by intelligence.

All Atheists are fools according to scripture. :D

 

[keebs]

All Atheists are fools according to scripture.

It's a good thing scipture is nothing but a fairytale to me...

 

[Asimov]

I don't want to embrace Anthony Flew's new found Philosophy.

I stated that he took a step up.

He went from "fool" to a man who finally had to admit that this universe was created by intelligence.

All Atheists are fools according to scripture. :D

That may be so, but all Theists are morons.

 

[Gary]

..... but all Theists are morons.

Gary: I have enjoyed reading, admiring their works, their art and listening to the music of these theist "morons".... Paul, John, Augustine, Aquinas, Anselm, Bonaventura, Scotus, Luther, Calvin, Descartes, Pascal, Leibniz, Berkeley, Galileo, Copernicus, Kepler, Newton, Newman, Lincoln, Pasteur, Kierkegaard, Shakespeare, Dante, Chesterton, Lewis, Solzhenitsyn, Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, Tolkien, da Vinci, Michelangelo, T. S. Eliot, Dickens, Milton, Spenser, Bach.....

(List courtesy of Peter Kreeft)

:wink:

 

[will]

I think its fantastic that this man is opening his mind to god. The bible says that if someone seeks the truth they will find it and this man seems to be seeking. We should be praying for him. :D

 

[reznwerks]

god

I think its fantastic that this man is opening his mind to god. The bible says that if someone seeks the truth they will find it and this man seems to be seeking. We should be praying for him. :D

He's not opening his mind to the bible god.

 

[will]

Re: god

I think its fantastic that this man is opening his mind to god. The bible says that if someone seeks the truth they will find it and this man seems to be seeking. We should be praying for him. :D

He's not opening his mind to the bible god.

Are you and he one?....nope :wink:
Whats going on in his head only he knows. And from what hes said hes not dead against christ. If he is truly seeking he will find. That no amount of hope on your part can stop. I belive god trys to call us all some hear it some a little and some are deaf. I think you have heard it a little as well other wise you wouldnt be here. I think that perhaps the reason you are trying to dis prove christ so much is that you are battling against what is calling you. You think if you can proove to us there is nothing then it will stop. There is no other reason for you to be here posting unless you are threatned by god in some way. Lets face it you aint here trying to make the blind see after all if there is nothing after death why would you care about christianity you would see it as a total non factor.

 

[Asimov]

Re: god

And from what hes said hes not dead against christ.

"I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins," he said. "It could be a person in the sense of a being that has intelligence and a purpose, I suppose."

I'd say that's about as dead against as you can get.

 

[will]

Re: god

And from what hes said hes not dead against christ.

"I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins," he said. "It could be a person in the sense of a being that has intelligence and a purpose, I suppose."

I'd say that's about as dead against as you can get.

Hmm its nice to see a atheist thinking about god.

Anyways. What hes saying there is most peoples opinion on god. If god gave only one rule some would still call him a dictator. It takes time for people to fully awake to god sometimes. Lets just wait and see how this goes.

 

[Asimov]

Re: god

And from what hes said hes not dead against christ.

"I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins," he said. "It could be a person in the sense of a being that has intelligence and a purpose, I suppose."

I'd say that's about as dead against as you can get.

Hmm its nice to see a atheist thinking about god.

Anyways. What hes saying there is most peoples opinion on god. If god gave only one rule some would still call him a dictator. It takes time for people to fully awake to god sometimes. Lets just wait and see how this goes.

Or you could just shift the goalposts one more time....that's a lot of fun.

 

[Gary]

will wrote to reznwerks: I believe God tries to call us all. Some hear it, some a little and some are deaf. I think you have heard it a little as well otherwise you wouldn't be here. I think that perhaps the reason you are trying to disprove Christ so much is that you are battling against what is calling you. You think if you can prove to us there is nothing then it will stop. There is no other reason for you to be here posting unless you are threatened by God in some way. Let's face it... you ain't here trying to make the blind see; after all if there is nothing after death, why would you care about Christianity? You would see it as a total non-factor.

Gary: Well said.

 

[Gary]

Re: god

And from what he's said, he's not dead against Christ.

"I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins," he said. "It could be a person in the sense of a being that has intelligence and a purpose, I suppose."

I'd say that's about as dead against as you can get.

Gary: Not really. He does not (yet) realise that it is Christ who attracts believers. Read again what Flew said about Jesus Christ

• GARY HABERMAS: I ask this last question with a smile, Tony. But just think what would happen if one day you were pleasantly disposed toward Christianity and all of a sudden the resurrection of Jesus looked pretty good to you?
  
  ANTONY FLEW: Well, one thing I’ll say in this comparison is that, for goodness sake, Jesus is an enormously attractive charismatic figure, which the Prophet of Islam most emphatically is not.

Gary: Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Him.

 

[Asimov]

Re: god

And from what he's said, he's not dead against Christ.

"I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins," he said. "It could be a person in the sense of a being that has intelligence and a purpose, I suppose."

I'd say that's about as dead against as you can get.

Gary: Not really. He does not (yet) realise that it is Christ who attracts believers. Read again what Flew said about Jesus Christ

• GARY HABERMAS: I ask this last question with a smile, Tony. But just think what would happen if one day you were pleasantly disposed toward Christianity and all of a sudden the resurrection of Jesus looked pretty good to you?
  
  ANTONY FLEW: Well, one thing I’ll say in this comparison is that, for goodness sake, Jesus is an enormously attractive charismatic figure, which the Prophet of Islam most emphatically is not.

Gary: Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Him.

Oh wow, now I see the light.

Finally, an ignore feature.

Good talkin to ya Gary.

 

[reznwerks]

Re: god

. Lets face it you aint here trying to make the blind see after all if there is nothing after death why would you care about christianity you would see it as a total non factor.

You have it backwards. It's Christianities influence in the hear and now that I am concerned with. Fundamentalists are trying to teach myth as fact and teach fact as myth. They are trying to influence politics that reflects what they think God is thinking.

 

[keebs]

If god gave only one rule some would still call him a dictator.

I call him a dictator...

 

[will]

Re: god

. Lets face it you aint here trying to make the blind see after all if there is nothing after death why would you care about christianity you would see it as a total non factor.

You have it backwards. It's Christianities influence in the hear and now that I am concerned with. Fundamentalists are trying to teach myth as fact and teach fact as myth. They are trying to influence politics that reflects what they think God is thinking.

The bible preaches a message of peace and love (how we are meant to love TODAY) so how could you be worried by that. Does it worry you if the people belive in what jesus says and want others to take it on board. What jesus taught if everyone belived would bring a peaceful world. As im sure you can see this is not a peaceful world and you cannot disagree that the further socity moves away from christianity the more dangerous and evil humnity becomes. Theres more rape more murders more thefts major drug issues and more. Cant you see the more we depend on ourselfs to move forward the harder we are falling. This world is in a bad way because people reject god they reject good they welcome selfishness and chase only what can get them further in socity.

Of course we are trying to infulence politics we can see whats going on. We know socity needs to draw close to god again we know that people need him. But we are losing that battle and the ironic thing is that in the end we will lost on that front but win the war. Christ will return and fix the mess that is being made right now.

 

[Asimov]

Re: god

The bible preaches a message of peace and love (how we are meant to love TODAY) so how could you be worried by that.
Does it worry you if the people belive in what jesus says and want others to take it on board. What jesus taught if everyone belived would bring a peaceful world. As im sure you can see this is not a peaceful world and you cannot disagree that the further socity moves away from christianity the more dangerous and evil humnity becomes. Theres more rape more murders more thefts major drug issues and more. Cant you see the more we depend on ourselfs to move forward the harder we are falling. This world is in a bad way because people reject god they reject good they welcome selfishness and chase only what can get them further in socity.

Of course we are trying to infulence politics we can see whats going on. We know socity needs to draw close to god again we know that people need him. But we are losing that battle and the ironic thing is that in the end we will lost on that front but win the war. Christ will return and fix the mess that is being made right now.

What does this have to do with science?