John 6 is a great passage that shows the faithfulness of Jesus in contrast to the shepherds before him who abandoned their sheep. He won't reject anyone who comes to him. He won't allow anyone or anything to snatch a Christian out of his hand and take away his salvation. That means if you believe in Jesus and live for him then nothing can get in the way. God always makes his grace available so that those who follow Jesus can live for him. However, John 6 is about Jesus' faithfulness. Whether Christians can chose to leave Jesus on their own isn't addressed in this passage.
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Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches
- Thread starter John Zain
- Start date
John 6 is a great passage that shows the faithfulness of Jesus in contrast to the shepherds before him who abandoned their sheep. He won't reject anyone who comes to him. He won't allow anyone or anything to snatch a Christian out of his hand and take away his salvation. That means if you believe in Jesus and live for him then nothing can get in the way. God always makes his grace available so that those who follow Jesus can live for him. However, John 6 is about Jesus' faithfulness. Whether Christians can chose to leave Jesus on their own isn't addressed in this passage.
Deborah13
Member
I agree with your statement. I also see this scripture this way.
My posts have all been directed to eternal security. I believe that if someone is truly born again they can be sure of their salvation.
IF they can reject the blood of Christ Hebrews 6, is the only scripture that would support this.
In Hebrews the author (probably Paul but it's not sure) is talking to Christian Jews. It's all about not turning back. Right after his statement in 6 he immediately goes forward with showing them once again who Jesus is. I believe in 6:4-10 some were or were being told that they needed to still perform blood sacrifices there by trampling on the blood of the Savior. This would a total rejection of His blood covering their sin, in it's redemptive power.
Thus my belief that if one were to totally reject Christ, (no longer believe at ALL) that Jesus is Savior and Lord, raised from the dead, it would be for them as spoken of in 6:4-10. But no born again believer needs to be fearful if they have sinned, backslidden, doubted their salvation, etc. that they have lost their salvation. Because if they still want to repent then they have NOT done what Hebrews 6:4-10 is talking about. The Holy Spirit is still working with/on them to draw them therefore, they have not lost their salvation because this scripture says "they cannot be brought to repentance" it is over, done.
John Zain
Member
#1 -- Being confident doesn't guarantee results. Paul does a LOT of edifying & encouraging.
#2 -- The finisher of our faith, i.e. da faith of us ones who still carry on with it.
#3 -- Are we talking about Jesus casting anyone out?
No, we all know better ... we'ze talking about people casting themselves out.
"No man is able to pluck them from my Father's hand" (John 10.29).
Does this include Satan and the believer himself/herself?
IMO, no!
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John Zain
Member
Thou art ignoring several devastating passages,
which talk of ANYONE who is into habitual sin!!!
And I'm being liberal here,
because not much mention is made about them being habitual sins.
However, I hope this is the meaning ... because it will bode better for all of us!
Long lists of sins are given, which will succeed in keeping one out of
the kingdom of God/Heaven, the City of Jerusalem, the Book of Life, etc.
1 Cor. 6:9-10 … Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,
nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners
will inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal. 5:19-21 … Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions,
dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand,
just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Eph. 5:3-6 … But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you,
as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting,
but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man,
who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you
with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Rev. 21:7-8 … He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and
all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
Rev. 21:27 … But there shall by no means enter it (the New Jerusalem, 21:10 ) anything that defiles,
or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
Rev. 22:14-15 … Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to
the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers
and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
IMO, this is what all of the talk is about re:
being sanctified (unto some semblance of holiness).
“Pursue … holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.” (Hebrews 12:14)
Note
I have special revelation re: LYING, which God calls an abomination twice in Prov. 6:16-19.
(And there are other devastating passages about lying ... see above.)
The Lord had me preach on this to a congregation of 500 in Bulgaria.
(Lying is VERY BIG TIME in many cultures, which don't have our Puritanical heritage.)
Warning: Do not be deceived ...
habitual, unrepented of, sin will shut born-again Christians out of Heaven!
God has a history of leaving His disobedient "chosen people"
scattered all over the desert floor!
But, if you don't have a desert close by, you'll be okay.
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Deborah13
Member
So would You say that any born again Christian who got a divorce for any reason other than adultry and then later remarried are in habitual sin and going to hell?
"No man is able to pluck them from my Father's hand" (John 10.29).
Jesus does not say "No man, except your self, is able to pluck them from my Father's hand"
Jesus does not say "No man, except your self, is able to pluck them from my Father's hand"
John Zain
Member
IMO, this is a very special case of adultery.
Jesus was strong against it.
Paul was more liberal about it.
My wife was given the go-ahead by the Lord Himself.
farouk
Member
reba: I think the whole matter needs to be seen in connection with the believer's need to keep 'looking unto Jesus' (Hebrews 12.2). This is always a sound doctrinal perspective.
Blessings.
Agreed
farouk
Member
Agreed
I was just thinking that a Biblical doctrine, however regarded, needs to be regarded as revolving around the Person and work of Christ.
It's so easy to revert to navel gazing, but looking up instead is the key. Heavenward rather than navel-ward. A navel-ward perspective is kind of saying: How can I make myself the exception to God's doctrinal rule? The heavenward, looking to Him, says, Amen, so be it. Aesthetically a navel barbell might hypothetically be worthwhile...but navel-ward doctrinal thinking never is.
(My remaining two cents.')
Deborah13
Member
1 Peter 4:8
King James Version (KJV)
8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
I use this scripture as a reference to God's grace in our lives. That if a person loves God and their brothern God's grace is sufficient. He looks at the heart and gives grace.
If a person is caught up in some sin whether it be lying, gossiping, any sin they need to judge themselves as to 'did they really Jesus as their Lord.' If they can honestly say they have then they are saved forever. They have been sealed by the Holy Spirit. So what then...
We only see what people are doing and judge but we cannot always know why. Yes people need to know what sin against God is so that they can repent (change their mind about it) but overcoming somethings can be very difficult. Please indulge me with this example.
At one time I was helping to raise a little girl who was not my own. She had a terrible habit of lying about all kinds of things. But what I noticed was that it was especially when she was afraid of getting in trouble but not with a normal fear, it was terror. I also noticed that her grandparents would indulge her even when she lied.
Her terror came from such overwhelming fear of her violent father who did not love her and her grandparents indulged her because they tried to make up for her relationship with her father. I did not punish her for lying. Each time it would raise it's ugly head I would take her aside and explain to her why she shouldn't lie and she would apologize and we'd go on. As time went by she lied less and less and became stronger and stronger. A few years ago she came 2300 miles to visit me and her sister. She told her sister that she used to be a liar but she had learned not to from me through love. By giving her grace the grace to overcome.
This is what I believe our Lord does in the lives of the worst of us. He does not desert us, He lifts us up out of the muddy clay, cleans us up, and keeps loving us.
You are correct in that not all people who say they are born again truly are but if they are (which we cannot know without talking to them and maybe not even then) then we need to trust God that He is working in their lives and pray for them.
Deborah13
Member
Abraham lied to save his life (was he trusting God in that situation)?
Did God punish Him? No God knew Abraham's heart.
God rescued both him and Sarah and then blessed them by the King giving them flocks, etc.
Did he get blessed because he lied? No
God spoke and the King out of fear gave and Abraham got blessed.
Abraham was God's faithful servant and God called him Friend and God gave him grace.
Did God punish Him? No God knew Abraham's heart.
God rescued both him and Sarah and then blessed them by the King giving them flocks, etc.
Did he get blessed because he lied? No
God spoke and the King out of fear gave and Abraham got blessed.
Abraham was God's faithful servant and God called him Friend and God gave him grace.
vocalyocal
Member
Great list put together John, not sure how anyone doesn't understand that any Christian who lives in such sins thinks that somehow God will overlook blatant rejection of His commands as anything other than lack of belief and lack of faith, and lack of love for the God they hoped would save their rebellious soul
then again I think most of these who won't hear these teachings merely say anyone who does them weren't really saved to begin with, Its such a weak response
That's an interesting situation that happens more often than it should. I think marriage is for life and doesn't end (even in the case of adultery) until the death of one spouse. If there is adultery, abuse, or other valid reasons then I think it isn't a sin to get a legal divorce. However, in God's eyes, the couple is still married so I believe it would be a sin to remarry as long as the spouse is still alive. If the marriage was never valid (for example, if a couple went to Las Vegas and got married while drunk) then I think a person can get the marriage annulled and would be free to marry someone else.
To answer your question, I don't think anyone can judge another person's salvation so I can't say the person would definitely go to Hell. I don't think a person would lose salvation unless the sin is serious (divorce and remarriage is definitely a serious sin) and the sin was committed deliberately (in this case it would be) and the person knew he was committing a serious sin. If a person was unaware he was disobeying God then I think the person could still be saved. God won't take away someone's salvation if he unknowingly sinned.
The reason salvation would be lost is for rejecting God. That's why I think a person has to be aware a sin is serious and deliberately disobey God by committing it.
I definitely agree. Saying the person was never saved is problematic because it would mean that some people who believe and put their faith in Jesus are never saved. The response to this is usually that the person never really believed but only pretended to believe. But why would anyone ever pretend to believe? There's no incentive. The reply I get to this is the person believed but not enough, he had faith but not the right kind of faith. The problem with this is it makes it difficult for anyone to know with any certainty whether he is saved because how would anyone know whether he had enough faith or the right kind of faith. I was taught this and whenever I sinned I had to question whether I really believed or had enough of the right kind of faith. No one who believes this can have any assurance that he is saved.
Deborah13
Member
I appreciate your view however I don't want to turn this into a thread about adultery. That was an example I thought of being serious sin that would be perpetual sin if taken by a legalist. I will say this, that Jesus at least in the case of the woman at the well did not see marriage to be for life. Divorce ended the marriage. Which is Jewish law even today.
What did he say to her, that she had had five husbands and that the man she was now with was not her husband.
John Zain
Member
Of course, He doesn't desert us ... this is about who deserts Him.
Please Deb, just what list of commands, laws, etc, did olde Abe have to go on?
I.E. Did he know lying was a sin? I betcha NO.
Deborah13
Member
Well I'm pretty sure that he did.
God destroyed S & G for sexual sins and they didn't have any laws to go by either.
And what about Lot's son and Lot's nakedness.
I'm pretty sure there was a knowledge of good and evil.
thisnumbersdisconnected
Member
Ooooh! Wrong answer!
Let's see ... what was the name of that tree God told Adam not to eat of, in the Garden? Himmm ... tip of my tongue ...
Deborah13
Member
This is what I understand of your theology.
1. If a truly born again believer breaks the law and have some sin in their life that they haven't overcome they lose their salvation.
2. If a person (re. Abraham) has a close relationship with God and a concious but they do not have a llist of rules they won't know God's will as to sin.
3. A born again person that has a list of rules can willfully break the rules because God gave them the go-ahead and not lose their salvation. (re. your wife and YOU)
I can just hear it now, " but God the woman said she got the go-ahead from you and I believed her, not my fault, it's hers. The garden all over again.
I have tried my darnest to be gracious to you even by not mentioning this post perviously but I have nothing more to say to you.
Your theology reminds me of the people who have the very same list of rules that they are intent on shoving on the rest of the world. But their god gives them a special go-ahead to murder thousands of innocent people by airplane and it's not really murder. They hate grace, they have the OT, they are even OK with the 4 Gospels (Jesus the Prophet) but they hate Paul, because they read Paul they can even see the grace he preached and they deny it.