Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[Ryan]

David was before the Cross of Christ, in the OLD Covenant.
We have a New Covenant, based upon the Blood of Christ. David did not have what we have! Jesus said that the least in the Kingdom is greater than any that had come before.

The only biblical way to be "cut off" or to fall from grace? Is to turn back into the law of moses "the ten commandments etc.."
Half under law and half under grace is the "lukewarm" church.
This is proven throughout scripture.

The hardest thing for some to believe is that the strength of sin, is the law. That the law produces sinful desires. Only grace gives a believer power over sin. Most of the warnings of scripture are to those who love to warn others. Just as the pharisee who enjoyed to condemn others with warnings about Gods Anger! They who have shown no mercy will receive no mercy. Mercy rejoices over judgment.

Please Mitspa, let's not go here. What did David have? He had salvation and a good dose of the Holy Spirit. Is that all a man really needs? And you did nothing to even respond to my comments. You just turned it into something that isn't even being discussed.

 

[Deborah13]

My own thoughts. Once you become saved, does one automatically become part of the ekklesia, called out ones, church? If you are then saved, and part of the larger commonwealth of saved ones, how could one who was considered part of the church be vomited out as per Revelations 3:16? One could only be a member of the church if they were saved right? So why the warning for those who are saved? Unless ekklesia means something else.

I take King David's words literally when he says after his sin of murder.

Psalms 51
Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
And sustain me with a willing spirit.

To me this is pretty clear David was not in right standing with God and he knew this and cried out to him with a broken and repentant heart.

When one becomes saved "born again" yes they become a part of Jesus church, the family of God.
These churches were and I believe are real conditions in real churches and individuals. There are always unbelievers in a church, those that may appear to be truly saved but are not.

Many also quote the scripture where Jesus says "I never knew you." Notice the NEVER, they were never one of His. They did things in His name and He allowed it but He never knew them because they never knew Him. IMHO

 

[Mitspa]

Please Mitspa, let's not go here. What did David have? He had salvation and a good dose of the Holy Spirit. Is that all a man really needs? And you did nothing to even respond to my comments. You just turned it into something that isn't even being discussed.

Well Ryan, if you make a point that is not based upon the truth of scripture, what kind of point is that? Did Jesus not say that among men born of a women, that none were greater that John the baptist, but that the very least in the Kingdom of God is greater than him? Did He not also say that we have more glory than solomon?
Is not also written that those saints and phophets longed and desired to have what we have in Christ? They did not have what we have, it was a different covenant "contract" based upon types and shadows. we have the very substance of what they desired. We have a New Covenant, based upon a more sure foundation and having better promises.

These things are basic biblical knowledge that every believer should know and understand. If you dont get the two covenants right? It is IMPOSSIBLE to get any biblical truth right.

I do not want you to think I am trying to condemn or cast doubt upon your love for Christ, or His great love for you, I am only showing you the truth, according to clear and evident scripture. Nothing I have posted to you is but the scripture in plain words.

 

[vocalyocal]

You do realize spirit beings have no soul and are not subject either to redemption or condemnation, right?

Not true. Salvation cannot be "lost," as you've been pointedly and repeatedly reminded many times on this forum. The rebukes were a call to repentance, not to restore salvation (no where in those passages can it be said they were threatened with "becoming lost") but to be restored to fellowship, which is all that is "lost" ("broken" being a much more accurate term) when sin is persistent in a believer's life.

No one has said that, and it isn't true. 1Corinthians 3:10-15 describes the Bema Seat, the Judgment Seat of Christ, where the works of believers will be judged and rewards given based on those works on behalf of the Kingdom. Look at the end of that passage.

1 Corinthians 3 NASB
14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
​

Ever been around someone rescued from a fire? Or a firefighter who just came out of a burning building? The smell of smoke on them is the equivalent of the scent of escape from judgment on the unproductive believer. Only by the blood of Christ does he/she gain admission to heaven.

I may have said this to your before, so forgive me if I'm repeating myself. I've felt the need to say it so often lately, I can't remember to whom I've addressed it. Heaven is not our reward. Heaven is our home, our native land, it is where we are from, as believers. That can't be changed. Our reward as believers is based on the work we do for the advancement of the Kingdom.

Matthew 6
19 "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.
20 "But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;
21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."
​

Sin cannot separate us from our homeland. It can and does interrupt the communication we have with our home. And it can cost us our treasure in heaven, which is something we cannot begin to understand or fathom, but it is the only thing we can "lose" in our relationship with Jesus.

to many things to address, how about start simple and prove to me from scripture that the spirits of angels and satan do not have souls

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

to many things to address, how about start simple and prove to me from scripture that the spirits of angels and satan do not have souls

Angels are individuals, spiritual beings who have intelligence, emotions, and free will. This is true of both the good and evil angels, Satan and those angels who joined him in rebellioni Angels possess intelligence (see Matthew 8:29; 2 Corinthians 11:3; 1 Peter 1:12), show emotion (see Luke 2:13; James 2:19; Revelation 12:17), and exercise free will (see Luke 8:28-31; 2 Timothy 2:26; Jude 6). Angels are spirit beings (see Hebrews 1:14) without true physical bodies. Although they do not have physical bodies, they are still personalities.

Because they are created beings, their knowledge is limited. This means they do not know all things as God does (see Matthew 24:36). They do seem to have greater knowledge than humans, however, which may be due to three things. First, angels were created as an order of creatures higher than humans. Therefore, they innately possess greater knowledge. Second, angels study the Bible and the world more thoroughly than humans do and gain knowledge from it (see James 2:19; Revelation 12:12). Third, angels gain knowledge through long observation of human activities. Unlike humans, angels do not have to study the past. They have actually live it. Therefore, they know how others have acted and reacted in situations and can predict with a greater degree of accuracy how we may act in similar circumstances.

Though they have wills, angels, like all creatures, are subject to the will of God. Good angels are sent by God to help believers (see Hebrews 1:14). Here are some activities the Bible ascribes to angels:

They praise God (see Psalm 148:1-2; Isaiah 6:3). They worship God (see Hebrews 1:6; Revelation 5:8-13). They rejoice in what God does (see Job 38:6-7). They serve God (see Psalm 103:20; Revelation 22:9). They appear before God (see Job 1:6; 2:1). They are instruments of God's judgments (see Revelation 7:1; 8:2). They bring answers to prayer (see Acts 12:5-10). They aid in winning people to Christ (see Acts 8:26; 10:3). They observe Christian order, work, and suffering (see 1 Corinthians 4:9; 11:10; Ephesians 3:10; 1 Peter 1:12). They encourage in times of danger (see Acts 27:23-24). They care for the righteous at the time of death (see Luke 16:22).

The Bible does not specifically address the issue of fallen angels having an opportunity to repent, but we can gain some insight from what the Bible does say. First, Satan (Lucifer) was one of the highest angels, perhaps the highest (see Ezekiel 28:14). Lucifer -- and all the angels -- were continually in God’s presence and had knowledge of the glory of God. Therefore, they had no excuse for rebelling against God and turning away from Him. They were not tempted, as man is tempted by them now. Lucifer and the other angels rebelling against God despite what they knew was the utmost evil. In other words, the rebelled knowing full well what they were doing, and if man has no excuse before a loving and just God, what hope do fallen angels have? None.

Second, God did not provide a plan of redemption for the angels as He did for mankind. This is likely because, as creatures created with intimate and full knowledge of God and His character, they have no soul. They would not need one, first being a spirit being and second having full knowledge of the glory of God from their personal contact with Him. The fall of the human race necessitated an atoning sacrifice for sin, and God provided that sacrifice in Jesus Christ. In His grace, God redeemed the human race and brought glory to Himself. God revealed Himself through Christ to all men. He did not need to reveal Himself to angels, who have known Him from the outset.

Therefore, no atoning sacrifice was planned for the angels. In addition, God referred to those angels who remain faithful to Him as His “elect angels” (see 1 Timothy 5:21). We know from the biblical doctrine of election that those whom God elects to salvation will be saved, and nothing can separate them from God’s love (Romans 8:38-39). Clearly, those angels who rebelled were not “elect angels” of God. Angels are the only individuals spoken of as elect. The doctrine of election as it relates to man calls nations (people groups) "elect" -- not individuals.

Finally, the Bible gives us no reason to believe that angels would repent even if God gave them the chance (see 1 Peter 5:8). The fallen angels seem completely devoted to opposing God and attacking God's people. The Bible says that the severity of God’s judgment varies according to how much knowledge a person possesses see (see Luke 12:48). The fallen angels, then, with the great knowledge they possessed, are greatly deserving of God’s wrath.

 

[vocalyocal]

My own thoughts. Once you become saved, does one automatically become part of the ekklesia, called out ones, church? If you are then saved, and part of the larger commonwealth of saved ones, how could one who was considered part of the church be vomited out as per Revelations 3:16? One could only be a member of the church if they were saved right? So why the warning for those who are saved? Unless ekklesia means something else.

I take King David's words literally when he says after his sin of murder.

Psalms 51
Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
And sustain me with a willing spirit.

To me this is pretty clear David was not in right standing with God and he knew this and cried out to him with a broken and repentant heart.

I agree David was a great prophet even in the old testiment he understood salvation happens on the day of judgement, when you will either be saved from the wrath of God or you won't, at the present we are being saved, in the process of being made to the image of Christ, His righteousness is what covers us in this process, even David was smart enough to know that rejecting God in disobedience could have eternal ramifications

 

[vocalyocal]

When one becomes saved "born again" yes they become a part of Jesus church, the family of God.
These churches were and I believe are real conditions in real churches and individuals. There are always unbelievers in a church, those that may appear to be truly saved but are not.

Many also quote the scripture where Jesus says "I never knew you." Notice the NEVER, they were never one of His. They did things in His name and He allowed it but He never knew them because they never knew Him. IMHO

please think about this!.......Is it your belief that unsaved people without the Holy Spirit can SAFELY cast out demons, can they prophecy in the Spirit of God? can they perform MIRACLES! in HIS NAME! by what power do they do such things? does satan now cast out his own demons through false prophets?

was not Judas one of the twelve disciples, was he not filled with the Holy Spirit and sent out with the twelve, casting out demons, healing the sick?

we also know from scripture that the sons of sceva tried to cast out demons in Jesus's name and were severely beaten
but now your going to say that it can be done without risk or danger

I've witnessed a demon possessed girl less than 100 lbs soaking wet, two 250lb plus linebacker sized men had all they could do just to hold onto her they were thrown back and forth like rag dolls, this was not a theatric done exorcism, it was behind closed doors...........If you think unbelievers can cast out demons, they better have a bigger demon in them to do it

 

[vocalyocal]

Angels are individuals, spiritual beings who have intelligence, emotions, and free will. This is true of both the good and evil angels, Satan and those angels who joined him in rebellioni Angels possess intelligence (see Matthew 8:29; 2 Corinthians 11:3; 1 Peter 1:12), show emotion (see Luke 2:13; James 2:19; Revelation 12:17), and exercise free will (see Luke 8:28-31; 2 Timothy 2:26; Jude 6). Angels are spirit beings (see Hebrews 1:14) without true physical bodies. Although they do not have physical bodies, they are still personalities.

Because they are created beings, their knowledge is limited. This means they do not know all things as God does (see Matthew 24:36). They do seem to have greater knowledge than humans, however, which may be due to three things. First, angels were created as an order of creatures higher than humans. Therefore, they innately possess greater knowledge. Second, angels study the Bible and the world more thoroughly than humans do and gain knowledge from it (see James 2:19; Revelation 12:12). Third, angels gain knowledge through long observation of human activities. Unlike humans, angels do not have to study the past. They have actually live it. Therefore, they know how others have acted and reacted in situations and can predict with a greater degree of accuracy how we may act in similar circumstances.

Though they have wills, angels, like all creatures, are subject to the will of God. Good angels are sent by God to help believers (see Hebrews 1:14). Here are some activities the Bible ascribes to angels:

They praise God (see Psalm 148:1-2; Isaiah 6:3). They worship God (see Hebrews 1:6; Revelation 5:8-13). They rejoice in what God does (see Job 38:6-7). They serve God (see Psalm 103:20; Revelation 22:9). They appear before God (see Job 1:6; 2:1). They are instruments of God's judgments (see Revelation 7:1; 8:2). They bring answers to prayer (see Acts 12:5-10). They aid in winning people to Christ (see Acts 8:26; 10:3). They observe Christian order, work, and suffering (see 1 Corinthians 4:9; 11:10; Ephesians 3:10; 1 Peter 1:12). They encourage in times of danger (see Acts 27:23-24). They care for the righteous at the time of death (see Luke 16:22).

The Bible does not specifically address the issue of fallen angels having an opportunity to repent, but we can gain some insight from what the Bible does say. First, Satan (Lucifer) was one of the highest angels, perhaps the highest (see Ezekiel 28:14). Lucifer -- and all the angels -- were continually in God’s presence and had knowledge of the glory of God. Therefore, they had no excuse for rebelling against God and turning away from Him. They were not tempted, as man is tempted by them now. Lucifer and the other angels rebelling against God despite what they knew was the utmost evil. In other words, the rebelled knowing full well what they were doing, and if man has no excuse before a loving and just God, what hope do fallen angels have? None.

Second, God did not provide a plan of redemption for the angels as He did for mankind. This is likely because, as creatures created with intimate and full knowledge of God and His character, they have no soul. They would not need one, first being a spirit being and second having full knowledge of the glory of God from their personal contact with Him. The fall of the human race necessitated an atoning sacrifice for sin, and God provided that sacrifice in Jesus Christ. In His grace, God redeemed the human race and brought glory to Himself. God revealed Himself through Christ to all men. He did not need to reveal Himself to angels, who have known Him from the outset.

Therefore, no atoning sacrifice was planned for the angels. In addition, God referred to those angels who remain faithful to Him as His “elect angels†(see 1 Timothy 5:21). We know from the biblical doctrine of election that those whom God elects to salvation will be saved, and nothing can separate them from God’s love (Romans 8:38-39). Clearly, those angels who rebelled were not “elect angels†of God. Angels are the only individuals spoken of as elect. The doctrine of election as it relates to man calls nations (people groups) "elect" -- not individuals.

Finally, the Bible gives us no reason to believe that angels would repent even if God gave them the chance (see 1 Peter 5:8). The fallen angels seem completely devoted to opposing God and attacking God's people. The Bible says that the severity of God’s judgment varies according to how much knowledge a person possesses see (see Luke 12:48). The fallen angels, then, with the great knowledge they possessed, are greatly deserving of God’s wrath.

wow all that time spent typing and still no scripture to back up your statement that angels have no souls...........instead of posting every scripture relating to angels, just post the one that clearly states they have no souls

you do realize you also state they have no physical bodies, this is not at all supported by the bible, we see angels grabbing lot, eating with Abraham, and so many others to mention.

you realize also that your a spiritual being, that one day will leave your tent

 

[Deborah13]

please think about this!.......Is it your belief that unsaved people without the Holy Spirit can SAFELY cast out demons,

I've witnessed a demon possessed girl less than 100 lbs soaking wet, two 250lb plus linebacker sized men had all they could do just to hold onto her they were thrown back and forth like rag dolls, this was not a theatric done exorcism, it was behind closed doors...........If you think unbelievers can cast out demons, they better have a bigger demon in them to do it

Luke 9:49-51

King James Version (KJV)

49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

need I say more?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

wow all that time spent typing and still no scripture to back up your statement that angels have no souls...

Amazing how you fail to understand that a as spirit beings, they have no soul. The material I've posted is more than ample from which to draw your conclusions in agreement with mine, but if you choose not to, that's no skin off my nose. Done here.

 

[Sparkey]

Broad category threads like these tend toward meandering. This particular meander may well warrant a search for a previously made thread better suited to the conversation. I'd suggest looking for "Body, Mind, Soul, Spirit" types of discussions, in order to avoid the risk of de-railing this one overmuch.

This suggestion does not only apply to the recent conversation about angels, but also to other thoughts that could fit here. Basically, if you think it would take 10 or so pages of discussion, the better choice would be to search for a new location (in past threads) first.

 

[farouk]

I've been reading some of the posts and have been finding difficulty in following the thread of thought sometimes.

 

[Sparkey]

After 12 pages of inputs, an Index could be created, with topics and posts numbers linked for convenience, but that would probably contribute to what seems to be the random nature of the meanders.

 

[Knotical]

After 12 pages of inputs, an Index could be created, with topics and posts numbers linked for convenience, but that would probably contribute to what seems to be the random nature of the meanders.

I think there is actually a way to sort the thread by sub-threads, as they were. Meaning, if I make a comment and someone "quotes" it and so on you can sort the thread to show those comments grouped together.

Of course I could be wrong, but I think I did see that feature on this site.

 

[4Jesus]

Not only is that my theology, it is the theology of the Bible. Now, that said, there is further examination to do here in order to understand the situation.

Is this a continuing lifestyle after salvation, a lifestyle that shows no benefit of the indwelling Holy Spirit, a compilation of sin upon sin upon sin that is the same behavior exhibited before an aisle was walked and a prayer said? If so, there was no change of heart. No change of heart means no indwelling Spirit. No indwelling Spirit means no salvation. This is an emotional reaction to the gospel without any real confession, not one that was accepted by God as true, valid and of salvic nature. These are just words with no real understanding or meaning behind them.

On the other hand, is this sin that someone who had heretofore shown evidence of a changed life, of the influence of the indwelling Spirit in his/her life, and then for some inexplicable reason allowed sin to rule once again? If so, this is a saved person, one who has temporarily chosen to live in the flesh, to indulge in the desires of the mind and emotions rather than allow the Spirit to guide, even to rule. Such a person does not "lose" their salvation. They do severely hinder their fellowship with God, and essentially enter a spiritual desert similar to the one trod by Israel for forty years.

This is the problem with the view those such as yourself have. You believe that walking an aisle and saying a prayer is salvation, and while it is a step in the right direction, there is no salvation unless God has accepted the confession as valid, true, real. There are many churches that make salvation far too easy, counting numbers rather than discipling souls. That is not to say there is more to it than belief. But to tell a person that a simple prayer, regardless of its validity, its heartfeltness, its truth, is the equivalent of salvation? That is cruel, because salvation is far is more than just words and actions. It is a heartfelt, true confession of being a hopeless sinner in need of a Savior, so heartfelt that God cannot help but see its genuineness, and dispatch the Holy Spirit to indwell that person. The outer view of this event is too easily counterfeited in emotion and people-pleasing.

Only God knows for certain, and the person who makes such a genuine confession. Those who lack genuineness? They are never certain, because they don't understand the reality of the event they have pretended to act out.

Are you saying that God sends people to Heaven or Hell based on whether the prayer they prayed was heartfelt?

 

[4Jesus]

And? You honestly believe this is the same kind of faith as is spoke of in this verse? In John 3:16? This belief as stated in John 6:47 is convicting faith, faith that provides salvation. Surely you know the difference between what man can believe and what the demons think? Or perhaps not. More's the pity.

Why would it matter? Do you really think belief alone, no matter how convicting, is enough? That everyone goes to Heaven or Hell based on whatever their conviction of what they happen to believe.

 

[Mitspa]

Are you saying that God sends people to Heaven or Hell based on whether the prayer they prayed was heartfelt?

Of course God deals with a man according to that mans heart!

"they draw near with their mouth, but their heart is far from Me saith the Lord"

Empty words, have no power in the Kingdom of God.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Are you saying that God sends people to Heaven or Hell based on whether the prayer they prayed was heartfelt?

Not exactly, but you could look at it that way. If the prayer isn't heartfelt, then the decision wasn't valid, was it? God doesn't accept fake confessions, or confessions based on emotion. Without a spiritual conviction that we are sinners in need of the Savior, a conviction that will lead us to follow Christ and allow Him to grow us in that faith, we won't pray to receive Him with sincerity and brokenness, and there will be no salvation.

Why would it matter? Do you really think belief alone, no matter how convicting, is enough?

Absolutely. And if you don't, you're not in agreement with Christ. Perhaps you'd like to reread Paul's take on it.

Ephesians 2 NASB
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.​

It is pretty plain that the Bible teaches faith in Jesus + nothing = salvation.

That everyone goes to Heaven or Hell based on whatever their conviction of what they happen to believe.

No. Conviction can only be based in belief. The "hell-bound" don't have a conviction of anything. They live their life as it comes, without examining the world around them in light of the Bible, they pay no attention to the fact they are indeed lost. It is only those who come to faith in Christ that have any conviction: That they are indeed born into sin, will die in sin unless they believe in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross for salvation. You apparently mix in the Law with faith, and Paul, John, Peter, etc., including Jesus, spoke against this view. If you don't see that, you need to return to the word and study it more carefully.

 

[vocalyocal]

Luke 9:49-51

King James Version (KJV)

49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

need I say more?

I think you should!.......notice what Jesus said "for he that is not against us is for us"

 

[vocalyocal]

Amazing how you fail to understand that a as spirit beings, they have no soul. The material I've posted is more than ample from which to draw your conclusions in agreement with mine, but if you choose not to, that's no skin off my nose. Done here.

in other words you have no scripture that even remotely concludes your theory!, so you merely say i should agree with you, because you have come to a conclusion based on no scripture at all

none of the scriptures you posted say that angels have no souls