Some reasons Christians should oppose Christmas

[Guest]

That C'mas wasn't celebrated as we know it today has nothing to do with how or why our country was founded. I prayerfully request you look up David Barton's texts about our fair country and its birth.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/

Look for the book - "Original Intent"

"In Original Intent: The Courts, the Constitution, & Religion, discover how the United States Supreme Court has reinterpreted the Constitution, diluting the Biblical foundations upon which it was based. Filled with hundreds of the Founders’ quotes revealing their beliefs on the role of religion in public affairs, the proper role of the courts, the intended limited scope of federal powers. States’ rights, and numerous other current issues."

In the book, Barton shows how much of our founding was based on Christian principles.

With love and respect,
~~Lisa :D

Lisa,
thank you for your response and the book you advised me to read.

My position is not that the United States was not founded upon Christian principles.

My position is that the United States was formed as a result of the belief in the principles of the Protestant Reformation, not deism, atheism, or catholicism.

Protestants did not celebrate Christmas in this nation because they objected to Catholicism, not because they objected to Scripture. Quite the contrary, it was because they held to Sola Scriptura that they rejected Christmass.

R.B.

 

[Guest]

Here is another book which clearly builds and backs the case that George Washington was a Christian, not a deist.



You can find this book at Amazon

Thank you for recommending this book.
There is a debate as to what Washington actually believed.
One man I came across recently, Eric Jon Phelps http://vaticanassassins.org/, claims that Washington renounced his membership as a Mason and became a Baptist. I use Eric Jon Phelps as an example of how there are many people who study hard and produce work which may or may not be correct, but call us to take a closer look. Perhaps Phelps is right and Washington was a Baptist at the end of his life. I have read many prayers and letters Washington has written, but I am no scholar on Washington. However, right now I would say that I prefer Patrick Henry's Calvinism to Washington's Anglicanism, and certainly his masonic-deism, if in fact he was a deist. Nothing wrong with studying the founding fathers.

R.B.

 

[Guest]

Here is an interesting passage from William Bradford's classic book titled:
The Plymouth Plantation: Bradford's History of the Plymouth Settlement 1608-1650.

"Herewith I shall end this year--except to recall one more incident, rather amusing than serious. On Christmas Day, the Governor called the people out to work as usual; but most of the new company excused themselves, and said it went against their consciences to work on that day. So the Governor told them, if they made it a matter of conscience, he would spare them till they were better informed.

So he went with the rest, and left them; but on returning from work at noon he found them at play in the street, some pitching the bar, some at stool-ball, and such like sports. So he went to them and took away their games, and told them it was against his conscience that they should play and others work. If they made the keeping of the day a matter of devotion, let them remain in their houses; but there should be no gaming and revelling in the streets. Since then, nothing has been attempted in that way, at least openly."
(Bradford's History of the Plymouth Settlement, Book 2, chapter 2, pages 94-95 [emphasis my own])

This event took place December 25th, 1621.
The Puritans did not celebrate Christmass, but worked on the days that Christmas did not fall on a Sunday. When Christmass did fall on a Sunday, they did not work, not because it was Christmass-time, but because Scripture forbids worldly labor and sport on the Lord's Day. They did celebrate the birth of Christ, but Christians should be doing that publicly every Sunday, and not just once a year.

The new arrivals to the Plymouth colony were not interested in worshipping Christ on that day, but were interested in having a good time and getting out of work. Sound familiar?

They were allowed to take this day until they were better informed. This is important. The Governor new that these new arrivals were also new to Christianity. After they became more knowledgeable of Scripture and the true meaning of Christmas, then they would willingly desist from the observation of that non-Christian event.

 

[Rick W]

David danced in the streets. But some thought it blasphemy.

2Sa 6:14 And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.
2Sa 6:15 So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.
2Sa 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

2Sa 6:21 And David said unto Michal, It was before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD.


I'll rejoice in the Lord even if it's more so on a particular day. And I'll rejoice in the Lord today as I did yesterday. I may not dance in the streets every day but I'll still rejoice.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

There seems to be some conflict in my mind about the meaning of the messages that contain the word tradition. And if I must celebrate Christmas (a chosen day) to please God (or any god that I may worship) then that's the wrong motive. If I celebrate Christmas to rejoice in Him, to "play before the LORD" that's a whole nuther matter entirely.

Yes, we worship God in church on Christmas as we do any other "appointed" time, like the sabbath. And some worship the lord on "appointed" days along with the sabbath. And some worship on an appointed day other than the sabbath. But all in all many follow the accepted "appointed" days to worship other than the "appointed" celebration of Christ's birth. I worship Him not because it's the "law" to do so, not because it's the tradition to follow the "law" nor do I worship with the sole motive to please Him.... on any "appointed" day.

I would think God would have us dance in the streets (celebrate in Him, rejoice in Him) more than we do anyway. And if Christmas is rejoicing to the Lord then that's a good start. God wants us to rejoice, to do as David did and with the joy he had in his heart. But scripture doesn't tell us when it's lawful to do that so we'll just have to do that ourselves... somehow... if we can do that without being told when to do so. And if nobody's opposed to rejoicing with the same heart as David, openly, for all to see, regardless if someone is standing in a window, watching and condemning our actions.

 

[christian_soldier]

2. No graven images of Him, of anything in Heaven, or on Earth, or in the Sea.

Please define graven image.

 

[golfjack]

reply

I don't know about you guys, but I will be dancing in my Church tomorrow. Why? My God has made me Righteous by His Blood. I guess, you don't see this that much in churches today, but if ones Salvation is not something to shout about, then I don't know what is.

I would like to take this opportunity to wish everyone a Very, very Merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[mutzrein]

mutzrein,
it has alway been a transgression to make an image of God. Exodus 20:4; Exodus 32:5,8; Deuteronomy 4:15-19; Deuteronomy 11:31-31.
The Westminster Shorter Catechism correctly states, "The Second Commandment forbids the worshipping of God by images, or any other way not appointed in His Word. (W.S.C. Q+A 51)

No wonder the Gospels, nor any of the Epistles ever describe what Jesus looks like.
Scripture puts the emphasis on the written Word, never on sensations.
Thanks for the feedback everyone.
Red Beetle

Whew! I was beginning to worry. Surely you don't think people actually worship a nativity scene. But I guess it's just as well that the nativity scene depicts Jesus rather than God huh.

And what is this emphasis that scripture puts on the written word?

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

It sort of looks to me as if someone is reading Deut 5:8 and stopping there without reading verse 9. Doing so takes the passage out of the context.

Deu 5:8-9 Thou shalt not make thee [any] graven image, [or] any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the waters beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me,

The point God is making is 'No idols'. Not 'no artwork'.
If He was saying thou shalt not make a graven image, PERIOD, or not to make a graven image of things in heaven, PERIOD, then how could it be that in Exodus 25:18 He is telling them to do so?

Exd 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims [of] gold, [of] beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

 

[Rick W]

The birth of Christ was as much an event as the crucifixion, His death and of course His resurrection. We may pray before the cross, not as an idol, but as worship to Him that did His divine work on the cross.
I have known some from other religions to accuse christians of worshiping the cross as an idol while living in Salt Lake City. When the cross is explained the argument simply goes in another direction, "Well, you won't see me wearing a handgun around my neck."

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Depicting a scene of an event is not idolatry in any case.
Is the "Last Supper" idolatry also? No, it's an event. Same with Moses being depicted as holding the stone tablets... again, an event. Moses is not a god.

And if we leave out the baby Jesus in the Nativity scene I wonder if that would warrant an Amber alert? :smt017

:-D

 

[lovely]

Hi everyone,

I will make this my last post concerning idolatry, and then allow my brothers and sisters to have the final words of love here. Red, I apologize for contributing to the hijacking further, and will stop here.

Idolatry runs rampant still today, and the Bible calls it sin, and warns us not to do it. It has been an issue in my own life, and I see it in others...even unbelievers. I do not want to stumble, or become arrogant in this area, and fall. It is not my desire to yoke my brothers and sisters, but to obey this command is not a burden to me, but God's grace in my life and I am thankful. I have been accused of not studying it properly, and taking it out of context, and even just being a legalist. I can say that I have been guilty of all the above, and probably will be again at some point, and so these accusations are probably true when applied to me. But, I am at peace, and do not wish to change my mind back, since God has changed me on this matter. I praise Him for that, and desire to just walk in simple obedience. I say this in love, but I do not want to break one of God's commandments to make everyone else feel more comfortable, or to look more like them...I believe to create images of God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are wrong...and are temptations for some believers to worship them (even in the quiet of their hearts)...even unbelievers, and I do not want to lead others in disobedience to God's command.

I understand Mutz's argument because he does not believe that Christ is God, but the Son of God...perhaps if I agreed with him, I would feel the same about the Nativity.

If God commands us to make such images for His Holy Temple, then it is not because He is tempted to bow to them, or put them on a prayer card, etc, and they were in no way meant to represent Him. I will stop here, except to say that I never really see images of the Father, because it seems to be applied to Him naturally by believers. I have given an answer for what I believe, and I will not draw the conclusions of others here. It was my desire to end this by simply saying that I can not agree, and so I will say it again. Here are a few more verses that come to mind, and then I will leave you to that which is between you and God.

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking on

Deuteronomy 5:8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:
9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

I would say the principal here is that we do not need images to represent God, or to bow to, even in our hearts, but that we are His, able to come into His presence, and bow directly before Him. Hallowed is His name. The Lord bless all of you.

 

[Rick W]

I just don't see the nativity as being an idol. If it was then why not worship the nativity all year round? It's a depiction of an event, nothing more... displayed only once a year during the celebration we view as Christ's birth. Granted, not all celebrate His birth. Not all christians set up a nativity scene. If the nativity was an idol then any christian not participating in it's display may be considered a christian in word only and not a true believer.
And I don't hear a lot of shouting from christians because most nativity scenes depict the three wise men either. They weren't even there. If the nativity was an idol I'm quite sure it's "correctness" would be an absolute must.

 

[christian_soldier]

It sort of looks to me as if someone is reading Deut 5:8 and stopping there without reading verse 9. Doing so takes the passage out of the context.

Deu 5:8-9 Thou shalt not make thee [any] graven image, [or] any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the waters beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me,

The point God is making is 'No idols'. Not 'no artwork'.

Thank you, Gabby. 8-)

 

[HGPgal]

Lisa,
thank you for your response and the book you advised me to read.

My position is not that the United States was not founded upon Christian principles.

My position is that the United States was formed as a result of the belief in the principles of the Protestant Reformation, not deism, atheism, or catholicism.

Protestants did not celebrate Christmas in this nation because they objected to Catholicism, not because they objected to Scripture. Quite the contrary, it was because they held to Sola Scriptura that they rejected Christmas.

R.B.

Thank you, RB! I apparently misunderstood your meaning, so pls forgive me. I really enjoy good bantering back and forth, but sometimes I misread the serve and return. I enjoy reading you.

Your sis,
~~Lisa :angel: