Someone asked me to prove that God exists

[Artie]

If morality is a force, then what is that force?

"Morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior") is the differentiation of intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are "good" (or right) and those that are "bad" (or wrong)." Wikipedia

Living together in groups enhanced our chances of survival and cooperation evolved common codes of conduct we now call moral behavior. Help people and they are likely to help you in return and you all survive, kill people and you are likely to get killed yourself. So people who helped each other survived and over time our brains got more or less hardwired for moral behavior. We know that areas of the brain such as the amygdala are responsible for people being able to distinguish between right and wrong. For those who have damage in those areas or are less "hardwired for morality" some religions explain to these people the difference between right and wrong (The Ten Commandments for example). Obviously naturally moral people don't need to be told.

 

[Mike S]

If morality is a force, then what is that force?

"Morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior") is the differentiation of intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are "good" (or right) and those that are "bad" (or wrong)." Wikipedia

Living together in groups enhanced our chances of survival and cooperation evolved common codes of conduct we now call moral behavior. Help people and they are likely to help you in return and you all survive, kill people and you are likely to get killed yourself. So people who helped each other survived and over time our brains got more or less hardwired for moral behavior. We know that areas of the brain such as the amygdala are responsible for people being able to distinguish between right and wrong. For those who have damage in those areas or are less "hardwired for morality" some religions explain to these people the difference between right and wrong (The Ten Commandments for example). Obviously naturally moral people don't need to be told.

They have to be guided; it's called Prevenient Grace.

 

[Artie]

If morality is a force, then what is that force?

"Morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior") is the differentiation of intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are "good" (or right) and those that are "bad" (or wrong)." Wikipedia

Living together in groups enhanced our chances of survival and cooperation evolved common codes of conduct we now call moral behavior. Help people and they are likely to help you in return and you all survive, kill people and you are likely to get killed yourself. So people who helped each other survived and over time our brains got more or less hardwired for moral behavior. We know that areas of the brain such as the amygdala are responsible for people being able to distinguish between right and wrong. For those who have damage in those areas or are less "hardwired for morality" some religions explain to these people the difference between right and wrong (The Ten Commandments for example). Obviously naturally moral people don't need to be told.

They have to be guided; it's called Prevenient Grace.

Some do some don't. Different religions just have different ways of packaging and presenting evolved morality. Hindus call it Dharma.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

If morality is a force, then what is that force?

"Morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior") is the differentiation of intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are "good" (or right) and those that are "bad" (or wrong)." Wikipedia

Living together in groups enhanced our chances of survival and cooperation evolved common codes of conduct we now call moral behavior. Help people and they are likely to help you in return and you all survive, kill people and you are likely to get killed yourself. So people who helped each other survived and over time our brains got more or less hardwired for moral behavior. We know that areas of the brain such as the amygdala are responsible for people being able to distinguish between right and wrong. For those who have damage in those areas or are less "hardwired for morality" some religions explain to these people the difference between right and wrong (The Ten Commandments for example). Obviously naturally moral people don't need to be told.

So what you are saying here is that we are not born with a conscience.
Unfortunately, you can't prove it .
No conscience, then do whatever you want, just don't get caught.

Can you tell me that you have no conscience?
Do you really believe that someone told you to have one and therefore you do?
Do you think a conscience is make believe?

Please, do tell me.

 

[reba]

closed to give time for the moderators of this forum to review.....

 

[Milk-Drops]

If morality is a force, then what is that force?

In my statement, I was stating that Morality is enforced by a force. Morality itself isn't a force. For instance, Christian morality is enforced by God/Jesus and the rules that are set by God/ Jesus with a reward and punishment system.

In society, aspects of morality are debated based on impact. For instance, the reason why morality changes or varies depending on the religion or region, is usually because of the dominance of a group and the means to enforce standards. The US has many laws and enforces them through the police force and FBI. This is different from Christian morality because Christian morality is based on the laws of God, where the US bases its laws on the Constitution and concept of individual civil rights.

 

[farouk]

I think Hebrews 11.6 sums it up.

Otherwise I wouldn't waste a lot of words with people who doubt that God even exists.

 

[Mike S]

If morality is a force, then what is that force?

Could it be the Holy Spirit?


We all have a sense of what it is to do right, but like the man poses, from whence does the force come? It is unseen, it can be strong...it must have a source. I think we may be looking at the Holy Spirit Himself. I could be wrong, but I could be right.

The Holy Spirit is unseen, God is unseen, and our Christian desire to live a relationship of Holy Righteousness with God of our own free will can be a puzzle to some. But, that is the source of our morality.

Some need something more tangible, something demonstrable. "If God can't be shown to exist in a way that is demonstrable, but other sources can be shown to be demonstrable, I'm more likely to side with demonstrable forces."

A SWAT team kicking down doors is demonstrable. Being hauled away in the night and subjected to totalitarian show trials is demonstrable.

 

[Milk-Drops]

A SWAT team kicking down doors is demonstrable. Being hauled away in the night and subjected to totalitarian show trials is demonstrable.

I think you failed to see the point of what I said, and are engaing in hyperbole instead of asking for clarification.

For instance, you don't seem to add in that people can appose a force and change the rules. Just like in the American revolution where the Colonies rejected the forced ideal Morality of the English monarchy, and created their own governed laws and fought to protect them by creating their own force.

They stood for own reason/ morality and wouldn't have imposed on them by the English Monarchy. Both sides had their own moral stance. The English argued that the Monarchy was in place by God. The Colonies argued that Men had the right to seek their own favor and should have responsibility for their own liberty.

This is why I ended the conversation earlier. You didn't care about my actual position.

 

[Mike S]

A SWAT team kicking down doors is demonstrable. Being hauled away in the night and subjected to totalitarian show trials is demonstrable.

I think you failed to see the point of what I said, and are engaing in hyperbole instead of asking for clarification.

Asking for clarification? It wasn't I who said "And now the conversation is over." :toofunny


Perhaps it's you who should be asking me for clarification.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

A SWAT team kicking down doors is demonstrable. Being hauled away in the night and subjected to totalitarian show trials is demonstrable.

I think you failed to see the point of what I said, and are engaing in hyperbole instead of asking for clarification.

For instance, you don't seem to add in that people can appose a force and change the rules. Just like in the American revolution where the Colonies rejected the forced ideal Morality of the English monarchy, and created their own governed laws and fought to protect them by creating their own force.

They stood for own reason/ morality and wouldn't have imposed on them by the English Monarchy. Both sides had their own moral stance. The English argued that the Monarchy was in place by God. The Colonies argued that Men had the right to seek their own favor and should have responsibility for their own liberty.

This is why I ended the conversation earlier. You didn't care about my actual position.

Your position makes me believe that you think mankind can change morality to whatever they want and therefore it is actually morality.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
In the United States, it is legal to kill an unborn child but it is illegal to kill a 5 year old.
Does that make it right?
Is that fair and just to the unborn baby?
No, of course not, and you know that.
Mankind tries to justify their actions by majority rule.
But that doesn't make it right.
There is something inside of you that knows right from wrong, regardless of what society says or what decisions you choose to make.

Now if you wonder what that something is, you have to look inside of you.
If we are born this way, it can only come from our maker.
If our maker wants us to choose what is good, then our maker must be good.

If you want to know if God exists, we have to do a search inside ourselves, and we will find Him.
It is a choice we have to make.

 

[Mike S]

A SWAT team kicking down doors is demonstrable. Being hauled away in the night and subjected to totalitarian show trials is demonstrable.

I think you failed to see the point of what I said, and are engaing in hyperbole instead of asking for clarification.

For instance, you don't seem to add in that people can appose a force and change the rules. Just like in the American revolution where the Colonies rejected the forced ideal Morality of the English monarchy, and created their own governed laws and fought to protect them by creating their own force.

They stood for own reason/ morality and wouldn't have imposed on them by the English Monarchy. Both sides had their own moral stance. The English argued that the Monarchy was in place by God. The Colonies argued that Men had the right to seek their own favor and should have responsibility for their own liberty.

This is why I ended the conversation earlier. You didn't care about my actual position.

Your position makes me believe that you think mankind can change morality to whatever they want and therefore it is actually morality.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
In the United States, it is legal to kill an unborn child but it is illegal to kill a 5 year old.
Does that make it right?
Is that fair and just to the unborn baby?
No, of course not, and you know that.
Mankind tries to justify their actions by majority rule.
But that doesn't make it right.
There is something inside of you that knows right from wrong, regardless of what society says or what decisions you choose to make.

Now if you wonder what that something is, you have to look inside of you.
If we are born this way, it can only come from our maker.
If our maker wants us to choose what is good, then our maker must be good.

If you want to know if God exists, we have to do a search inside ourselves, and we will find Him.
It is a choice we have to make.

That's the point about morality not based on God's will, it's inevitably subjective rather than objective. Whether secular morality is determined by English monarchy, American revolutionaries, or Robespierre's Committee of Public Safety, it all serves man's desire for license, it all changes to fit a culture, it's all enforced by physical power, and it all inevitably reduces to our most debased human instincts. Reality is - as Doestoevsky's character in the Brothers Karamozov says - "Without God, everything is permissible."

 

[Tony Hyman]

I believe Paul E. Little in his "How To Give Away Your Faith" can be of assistance when faced with the question of proving God's existance.
"To start with we have to know what we're looking for.We've all run into the non-Christian who says, ' I'd believe in God if you could pove Him to me'.
When we asked him,'What would you accept as proof?' he's staggered.He's never stopped to think what he's looking for.He wouldnt recocognize the evidence if he stumbled over it.In our looking for genuiness in the Christian Life , we may share his problem.We're a little hazy about what we're after."

It all boils down to understanding Faith and accepting that God is in charge of everything.This means giving up or sacrificing much of yourself.
The author points to non-believe, as an excuse not to sacrifice one self away from the "purks" that this world offers ,as opposed to the Will Of God .The price is unfortunatly just too much as I understand Mr Little.In most cases it is about choices from within.

 

[Milk-Drops]

Your position makes me believe that you think mankind can change morality to whatever they want and therefore it is actually morality.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
In the United States, it is legal to kill an unborn child but it is illegal to kill a 5 year old.

Every single morality thread does need to include abortion. I refuse to dissucss anymore. We dragging this topic down that way.

Does that make it right?
Is that fair and just to the unborn baby?
No, of course not, and you know that.
Mankind tries to justify their actions by majority rule.
But that doesn't make it right.
There is something inside of you that knows right from wrong, regardless of what society says or what decisions you choose to make.

We don't have this inside notion of right and wrong. Most of it is influenced by society. Considering, when feral children are found, they act very much like animals. This has lead many psychologists to understand that nuture is a huge factor in morality. Also, sociopaths also contradict this inner morality stuff.

However, morality is enforced by force. What has been considered right and wrong has changed, not by popular vote, but through reasoning skills. Its why slavery ended in the US and the age of consent has gone up.

Now if you wonder what that something is, you have to look inside of you.
If we are born this way, it can only come from our maker.
If our maker wants us to choose what is good, then our maker must be good.

Can you support this in any way?

 

[Milk-Drops]

That's the point about morality not based on God's will, it's inevitably subjective rather than objective.

Then you should have no problem explaining how this is true in Pascifism, Taoism, and Humanism.

Whether secular morality is determined by English monarchy, American revolutionaries, or Robespierre's Committee of Public Safety, it all serves man's desire for license, it all changes to fit a culture, it's all enforced by physical power, and it all inevitably reduces to our most debased human instincts.

Yep, because it works. Nothing is every static. You're not explaining how your morality is true. Just that you like how it doesn't change.

Reality is - as Doestoevsky's character in the Brothers Karamozov says - "Without God, everything is permissible."

Hey, so there are no laws or public opinions on robbing banks? Or are you just being difficult and trying to claim if God isn't there, then you don't fear man's laws either?

 

[Milk-Drops]

I believe Paul E. Little in his "How To Give Away Your Faith" can be of assistance when faced with the question of proving God's existance.
"To start with we have to know what we're looking for.We've all run into the non-Christian who says, ' I'd believe in God if you could pove Him to me'.
When we asked him,'What would you accept as proof?' he's staggered.He's never stopped to think what he's looking for.He wouldnt recocognize the evidence if he stumbled over it.In our looking for genuiness in the Christian Life , we may share his problem.We're a little hazy about what we're after."

Made up people can hold any position you want them to, or react however you want. The truth is, you have to base the questioning on people themselves. Most of the time, when someone asks for a Christian to Prove God, its usually after a statement of God being an authority on something. The evidence or proof is asked, to help justify why this authority should be trusted. If the authority can't be pressented in a way that convinces the person asking the question, they probably won't be convinced.

It all boils down to understanding Faith and accepting that God is in charge of everything.This means giving up or sacrificing much of yourself.
The author points to non-believe, as an excuse not to sacrifice one self away from the "purks" that this world offers ,as opposed to the Will Of God .The price is unfortunatly just too much as I understand Mr Little.In most cases it is about choices from within.

Let me break it down from my perspective, not this made up perspective. If someone wants me to sacrifice something, I can be persuaded if the reasoning makes sense or can be justified. However, if the evidence is presented as vauge, word games, derailments, attacks on my person, shaming, etc. Its not actually supporting that God exists. It feels more like a game that I'm just supposed to accept. If I can't be convinced either logically or through situational reasoning, then I'm not going to sacrifice something. Its that simple. If you think its a shame, I will say its a shame you weren't able to convince me.

 

[reba]

This thread has been busy ! Here is an off topic addy for you all to check out about the coming move. http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=54483


totopic

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

However, morality is enforced by force. What has been considered right and wrong has changed, not by popular vote, but through reasoning skills. Its why slavery ended in the US and the age of consent has gone up.

Our forced morality teaches us to treat the symptoms and not the problem.

Can you support this in any way?

Man will look for signs and wonders but he won't be given any.

 

[Milk-Drops]

Our forced morality teaches us to treat the symptoms and not the problem.

I haven't anything differnt from Christian forces either.

Man will look for signs and wonders but he won't be given any.

Which means that this can easily also be attributed to Allah, Buddha, Krishna, etc. You have to have something to convince other people. Jesus in the Bible performed miricals in front of crowds. My experience is that most Christians don't want to bother demonstrating why they believe what they believe. Just saying.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Our forced morality teaches us to treat the symptoms and not the problem.

I haven't anything differnt from Christian forces either.

Man will look for signs and wonders but he won't be given any.

Which means that this can easily also be attributed to Allah, Buddha, Krishna, etc. You have to have something to convince other people. Jesus in the Bible performed miricals in front of crowds. My experience is that most Christians don't want to bother demonstrating why they believe what they believe. Just saying.

If I can't see it, then I don't believe it.

That's a very common statement throughout the ages.

If I could only show you that if you opened your eyes you could see a whole new world.


But I can't do that for you.