Soooo, What's the Difference?

[mcgyver]

Well, I asked this question in another thread...but since it died a natural death after a number of pages, I thought I'd ask it again.

This is primarily for those who hold that Jesus is the Son of God, but not God in the flesh...and I'm curious as to opinions concerning the following:

The Mormons will tell you in half-a-heartbeat that Jesus is the Son of God, and that they believe in Jesus for salvation....

BUT...In Mormon theology Jesus is the brother of Lucifer, and just one of an uncountable number of "spirit children" of Elohim...who lives near a star called Kolob.

Are they saved?

The JW's will also tell you that Jesus is the Son of God...but in their theology Jesus is Michael the Archangel, and was raised as a "spirit creature.

Are they also saved?

Why or why not...considering they both proclaim Jesus as the Son of God?

 

[cleanfreak]

Great question and one that will be hard to answer for sure.

The key to salvation is truly believing and really has nothing to do with proclaiming.

John 3:16 states if we believe in him we would not perish but have eternal life. So I guess now the debate will be whether or not you truly believe?

Another thought I have as well......I guess we think of the Mormons different from regular Christians because of the book the believe in and follow accordingly.

So I have to ask, what is the difference between the book of Mormon and any other book that is written about God? There are plenty of books in the Christian book stores that we tend to read and follow. So what is the difference?

Most of us here will tend to believe something a little different than others as proof in many, many threads. Are we now no longer saved because we believe a little different?

I do not know much about the JW's , but if they fall into the same type of category, then I guess the same question goes for them as well.

 

[mcgyver]

Thanks for your reply!

I have a couple of follow up questions to ponder...but I want to wait for a bit and see what some other folks think.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

What is salvation based on? Is it based on believing that Jesus of Nazareth was God's Anointed One who lived a sinless life, died, was raised on the 3rd day, and was then taken up to glory where he reigns as king at the right hand of God, or is salvation based on belief in something different? I believe that going beyond what is highlighted above delves into the realm of the less relavant and going there can be the catalyst for much division within the realm of those who believe.

 

[Vic C.]

What is salvation based on? Is it based on believing that Jesus of Nazareth was God's Anointed One who lived a sinless life, died, was raised on the 3rd day, and was then taken up to glory where he reigns as king at the right hand of God, or is salvation based on belief in something different? I believe that going beyond what is highlighted above delves into the realm of the less relavant and going there can be the catalyst for much division within the realm of those who believe.

This may or may not make a difference for some, but it does for me.

Scripture says He is at the right hand of the Father.

 

[cyberjosh]

As far as whether Jesus was a "spirit being" or if he came in the flesh 2 John 1:7 clearly says, "For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist".

 

[Forgiven83]

I think some JW and some LDS members might be saved but if they are indoctrinated to must, no way. For Paul wrote:
6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from Him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7) Which is not another: but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Galatians 1:6-9

 

[Hitch]

Well, I asked this question in another thread...but since it died a natural death after a number of pages, I thought I'd ask it again.

This is primarily for those who hold that Jesus is the Son of God, but not God in the flesh...and I'm curious as to opinions concerning the following:

The Mormons will tell you in half-a-heartbeat that Jesus is the Son of God, and that they believe in Jesus for salvation....

BUT...In Mormon theology Jesus is the brother of Lucifer, and just one of an uncountable number of "spirit children" of Elohim...who lives near a star called Kolob.

Are they saved?

The JW's will also tell you that Jesus is the Son of God...but in their theology Jesus is Michael the Archangel, and was raised as a "spirit creature.

Are they also saved?

Why or why not...considering they both proclaim Jesus as the Son of God?

No. Those qualify as 'another Jesus' , not only are the adherents beyond orthodoxy , those doctrines are antichristian. It is not possible to add or subtract from the NT doctrine of Christ with out affecting his deity.

So the difference is the nature and being of Jesus Christ not a matter of mild import.

 

[sdktlk]

No. Those qualify as 'another Jesus' , not only are the adherents beyond orthodoxy , those doctrines are antichristian. It is not possible to add or subtract from the NT doctrine of Christ with out affecting his deity.

So the difference is the nature and being of Jesus Christ not a matter of mild import.

Amen.

 

[Asyncritus]

If this was really put together by the apostles, or some of them, then they did an excellent job, with which I wholeheartedly agree. If that makes me a heretic, Hitch and Vic, then there's an awful lot of people going down the pan with me.

I BELIEVE in God the Father Almighty, the Maker of heaven and earth
And in Christ Jesus, his only Son, our Lord
Who was born of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
Who was crucified under Pontius Pilate and was buried
And the third day rose from the dead
Who ascended into heaven
And sitteth on the right hand of the Father
Whence he cometh to judge the living and the dead.
And in the Holy Spirit
The remission of sins
The resurrection of the flesh
The life everlasting.

 

[Free]

Great question and one that will be hard to answer for sure.

The key to salvation is truly believing and really has nothing to do with proclaiming.

John 3:16 states if we believe in him we would not perish but have eternal life. So I guess now the debate will be whether or not you truly believe?

As nice as it is to say all we have to do is believe, we must understand just what it means to "believe in Christ."

John 3:18 includes something else: "18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the nameof the only Son of God."

It seems as though there is something more to it than just merely believing Jesus is the Son of God.

Rom 10:9-13 "9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, 'Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.' 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For 'everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'"

This passage shows there is also a confession, a proclamation, and another belief that "God raised him from the dead" that are involved. Not to mention the context of verse 13, which is a quote from the OT about all who call upon the name of YHWH.

It really is not as simple as merely believing Jesus is the Son of God, as much as many people like to think it is. We cannot divorce belief in Christ from the doctrine of Christ. Who he is is absolutely central to salvation.

Another thought I have as well......I guess we think of the Mormons different from regular Christians because of the book the believe in and follow accordingly.

So I have to ask, what is the difference between the book of Mormon and any other book that is written about God? There are plenty of books in the Christian book stores that we tend to read and follow. So what is the difference?

Most of us here will tend to believe something a little different than others as proof in many, many threads. Are we now no longer saved because we believe a little different?

I do not know much about the JW's , but if they fall into the same type of category, then I guess the same question goes for them as well.

The issue with the Book of Mormon is that they claim it to be on par, and even greater than, the Bible. They claim it is inspired just as the Bible is inspired. That is what separates it from Christian books about God. They believe it is factual history and necessary for a correct and complete theology.

 

[childeye]

Every man has an absolute by which he reasons and this absolute defines one's moral terms, good bad, right wrong, rich poor, success failure etc... Perhaps it is best said everyone believes something as true to which he applies his faith as he walks accordingly. This is then his image of God. The term God here is an absolute described as all knowing, all powerful, omnipotent, omniscience, omnipresence.

Therefore what a man believes to be true governs his moral spirit. The image of God presented by Satan to man in the Garden of Eden is one of a self-serving God. This is subterfuge through subtlety, the power of suggestion. When Satan said God only wanted us to not eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil because He knew our eyes would be open and we would become like Him, this made God out to be holding us back from becoming what we could become. This is the image by which disobedience was fascilitated, for distrust precedes disobedience even as righteousness is by faith, or trust. With a corrupt image of God one is able to justify selfish behavior.

There are many images of God created by men, even as there are many religions. The Christ is the promised true Image of God sent by God Himself and not conjured by anybody. If One believes in this Christ, Christ becomes the absolute that rules in a man's reasoning, and the believers moral character changes accordingly and becomes a child of God sired by the Spirit of God through the Christ.

The Christ is the Word of God made flesh, and therefore he calls himself the son of man being flesh, yet refers to God as Father because the Spirit in him, his person, is concieved of the Holy Spirit. He is the only begotten for the Word of God is the communication from God, and so is in fact God, and the power of creation. Christ is the True Image of God and is seen as a man, flesh and blood just like you and me.

 

[mcgyver]

First, I want to thank everyone for their answers, and apologize for taking so long to get back to the thread...a "mini sabbatical", as it were.

The reason that I brought up the JWs and the Mormons, is that they (along with others) believe in **A** Christ, but not **THE** Christ.

Jesus never said that He was **A** way, truth or life, but **THE** way, the truth, and the life.

Through out the scripture, we are repeatedly warned of false Christs, false prophets, etc.

It makes sense then, that our Lord would have something about Him that is absolutely unique, by which we may know the true and living Christ.

So then, what is the one, absolutely unique thing about Jesus of Nazareth that confirms Him as Christ alone? Something to which no other human being in history can lay a verifiable claim?

 

[Sam21]

Salvation comes when one is convicted by the Holy Spirit that they are a lost sinner and headed for hell and that God will save them IF they believe that Jesus died to take away their sin and they commit to God and accept Jesus as Saviour. This is a choice that is made in the mind,emotions and will,anything less than this is not salvation.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

It makes sense then, that our Lord would have something about Him that is absolutely unique, by which we may know the true and living Christ.

So then, what is the one, absolutely unique thing about Jesus of Nazareth that confirms Him as Christ alone? Something to which no other human being in history can lay a verifiable claim?

God anointed (christed, if you will) Jesus to a position not given to any other. He is unique in many ways, but one of the more significant ones IMO is that he was the firstborn from the dead and was given power of death and the grave.

 

[Prince]

Well, I asked this question in another thread...but since it died a natural death after a number of pages, I thought I'd ask it again.

This is primarily for those who hold that Jesus is the Son of God, but not God in the flesh...and I'm curious as to opinions concerning the following:

The Mormons will tell you in half-a-heartbeat that Jesus is the Son of God, and that they believe in Jesus for salvation....

BUT...In Mormon theology Jesus is the brother of Lucifer, and just one of an uncountable number of "spirit children" of Elohim...who lives near a star called Kolob.

Are they saved?

The JW's will also tell you that Jesus is the Son of God...but in their theology Jesus is Michael the Archangel, and was raised as a "spirit creature.

Are they also saved?

Why or why not...considering they both proclaim Jesus as the Son of God?

Hello Mc

Well Jesus is God that can be seen in Isaiah

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born,(Jesus) unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

I believe JW's and Mormons are saved if they believe in Jesus and believe he died and rose yes they are saved. The problem is the word of God is your armor if you put on to many wrong pieces (wrong doctirnes) you will be vulnerable.

 

[for_his_glory]

God is not about a persons religion nor does he recognize organized religions. God is about a personal relationship between you and his word made flesh (Christ) as Gods Spirit draws us into reconciliation through repentance and by his grace we are saved if we believe in the one whom he sent (Jesus). Religion can not save you, man can not save you, only by the grace of God can we be saved through the Spiritual rebirth of his word and Spirit.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

In Vs. 5 that light is Christ and those who rationalize the word of God by their own carnal interpretations and opinions can not have that light of Christ in them as it is only by a Spiritual rebirth that we will see the kingdom of God and be indwelled by the Holy Spirit who teaches us all things of the word of God.
John 3:1-7; 14:26; Colossians 3:1-17; John 10:9; Romans 10:9, 10

 

[Asyncritus]

First, I want to thank everyone for their answers, and apologize for taking so long to get back to the thread...a "mini sabbatical", as it were.

The reason that I brought up the JWs and the Mormons, is that they (along with others) believe in **A** Christ, but not **THE** Christ.

Jesus never said that He was **A** way, truth or life, but **THE** way, the truth, and the life.

Through out the scripture, we are repeatedly warned of false Christs, false prophets, etc.

It makes sense then, that our Lord would have something about Him that is absolutely unique, by which we may know the true and living Christ.

So then, what is the one, absolutely unique thing about Jesus of Nazareth that confirms Him as Christ alone? Something to which no other human being in history can lay a verifiable claim?

Mac

You ought to know the answer to this one. Let me remind you (if you need reminding):

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Note: Son of God, not God the Son.

The JWs, I regret to say, deny the physical resurrection of Christ from the dead.

 

[mcgyver]

Mac

You ought to know the answer to this one. Let me remind you (if you need reminding):

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Note: Son of God, not God the Son.

The JWs, I regret to say, deny the physical resurrection of Christ from the dead.

Joseph Smith wrote:

The Lord hath spoken through Isaiah, saying, "Behold my servant whom I uphold--mine elect in whom my soul delighteth;" evidently referring to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, chosen, or elected by the Father. (I Peter i:20). "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by Him do believe in God to serve Him in the redemption of the world, to be a covenant of the people (Isaiah xlii: 6), for a light to the Gentiles, and the glory of His people Israel, having ordained Him to be the judge of the quick until dead (Acts x: 42), that through Him forgiveness of sins might be preached (Acts xiii: 38), unto all who would be obedient unto His Gospel."(Mark xvi: 16, 17).

So then, by your definition the LDS folks (who proclaim that Jesus is the Son of God) are saved...is this what you're saying?

If they're not saved...then why not?

(Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 4, Ch. 14, p. 256)

 

[Asyncritus]

Joseph Smith wrote:

So then, by your definition the LDS folks (who proclaim that Jesus is the Son of God) are saved...is this what you're saying?

If they're not saved...then why not?

(Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 4, Ch. 14, p. 256)

MY definition? I didn't write Romans (I'm mentioned in it, but... )

You're asking me to be the judge of all the earth. I refuse to be such.

If you press me for an answer, I would be inclined to say no, because they add the book of Mormon to the Word of God - and that is severely condemned by God.

But to repeat, the judge of all the earth will do right, and it is not for us to usurp His position.