Growth Soteriological Chronology

[netchaplain]

"Repent, and be baptized" (Acts 2:38). Repentance, then baptism; and before repentance is the grace of regeneration, which is "the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance" (Rom 2:4).

When were those who Peter were speaking to saved? When "they that gladly received his word" (v 41). When did they receive his word? When "they were pricked in their heart" (v 37).

Thus, after "they that gladly received his word" (saved), they were then baptized (in water), and following this, they received the gift of Holy Spirit. The "gift of the Holy Spirit" in this passage is not Himself, for He was in them when they believed (received his word-- as Jhn 1:12). But "the gift" from the Holy Spirit was the gift of which "they were all amazed and marveled" (v 7). They repented and were baptized "because of the remission of sins."

Soteriology is clearest when differentiating between producing salvation (the Blood--cause) and receiving it (effect).

"For the remission of sins; not that forgiveness of sin could be procured either by repentance, or by baptism; for this is only obtained by the blood of Christ."
Gill--http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/acts/gill/acts2.htm

NC

 

[Malachi]

"Repent, and be baptized" (Acts 2:38). Repentance, then baptism; and before repentance is the grace of regeneration, which is "the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance" (Rom 2:4).

When were those who Peter were speaking to saved? When "they that gladly received his word" (v 41). When did they receive his word? When "they were pricked in their heart" (v 37).

Thus, after "they that gladly received his word" (saved), they were then baptized (in water), and following this, they received the gift of Holy Spirit. The "gift of the Holy Spirit" in this passage is not Himself, for He was in them when they believed (received his word-- as Jhn 1:12). But "the gift" from the Holy Spirit was the gift of which "they were all amazed and marveled" (v 7). They repented and were baptized "because of the remission of sins."

Soteriology is clearest when differentiating between producing salvation (the Blood--cause) and receiving it (effect).

"For the remission of sins; not that forgiveness of sin could be procured either by repentance, or by baptism; for this is only obtained by the blood of Christ."
Gill--http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/acts/gill/acts2.htm

NC

Why do theologians and some Christians try to complicate something which is simple yet supernatural? Why do men try to "figure out" salvation with their limited human intellects?

Salvation is very simple. IT IS THE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE. So to return to Acts chapter 2, and to be clear, here is what happened:
1. Peter preached the Gospel -- faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (vv 21-36).
2. Thousands of Jews were convicted by the Holy Spirit (v. 37)
3. Peter preached repentance (v 38)
4. Over 3,000 Jews believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, repented of their sins, and received Christ as Lord and Savior (v 41)
5. The moment they believed, they were born again because they received the gift of the Holy Spirit (v 38)
6. Those who believed were baptized in water by immersion (v 41).

While that passage (Acts 2:14-41) does not provide every detail in that sequence, the rest of Scripture fills in the details. Of course the blood of Christ was applied to their souls. Of course their sins were remitted immediately. Of course they were justified by faith. There is no such thing as differentiating between "producing salvation" and "receiving it". Everything occurs at the same time. In fact it is simply abbreviated to "believing in God with all his house" in Acts 16:34.

 

[Deborah13]

Act 10:24 And the morrow after they entered into Caesarea. And Cornelius waited for them, and had called together his kinsmen and near friends.

Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

 

[netchaplain]

Why do theologians and some Christians try to complicate something which is simple yet supernatural? Why do men try to "figure out" salvation with their limited human intellects?.

Hi Malachi - I rather understand it that many Bible-Christians continually desire to study and understand more of what Scripture has to instruct.

 

[Malachi]

Hi Malachi - I rather understand it that many Bible-Christians continually desire to study and understand more of what Scripture has to instruct.

But you have not shown how this statement below is valid, although I have shown that it is invalid:

Soteriology is clearest when differentiating between producing salvation (the Blood--cause) and receiving it (effect).

 

[netchaplain]

But you have not shown how this statement below is valid, although I have shown that it is invalid:

"Soteriology is clearest when differentiating between producing salvation (the Blood--cause) and receiving it (effect)."

This statement merely explains that there's nothing anyone can do to provide salvation, only receive it. The atonement of Christ is the sole source of salvation.

 

[netchaplain]

My point to make is merely the truth that the provision of salvation can only be attributed to Christ, for there is much confusion differentiating between producing salvation and receiving it, which can result in depending on self (even if nominally is error) instead of Christ.

This misunderstanding does not inhibit ones salvation from Christ even if this is not understood, because it's just a misunderstanding, which detracts not from the actuality of one's faith, but it does keep one's faith weak, for trusting in anything or anyone other than the Lord Jesus results in being "weak in the faith," because of not fully trusting in Christ but rather also self.

Everything other than producing salvation (Jesus) involves receiving it, and the growth and retaining of it depends on the same source which provides it (Jesus). Thus faith, repentance, works, etc. are all effects of "God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phl 2:13). It is God “working in you that which is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ” (Heb 13:21).

If one is not living a repentant life, it reveals the absence of faith, which is the result of the absence of God’s work (rebirth) within!

 

[Malachi]

"Soteriology is clearest when differentiating between producing salvation (the Blood--cause) and receiving it (effect)."
This statement merely explains that there's nothing anyone can do to provide salvation, only receive it. The atonement of Christ is the sole source of salvation.

Netchaplain,
I know you have quoted another source. But here is the problem:

before repentance is the grace of regeneration

This is the Calvinistic idea that the New Birth occurs BEFORE repentance. That is definitely not what Scripture teaches. This is what Scripture teaches:
On man's side: Repentance + Faith = Regeneration (Acts 20:21).
On God's side: Grace + Faith + Repentance = Salvation (Eph 2:8,9).

 

[Malachi]

Thus faith, repentance, works, etc. are all effects of "God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure" (Phl 2:13). It is God “working in you that which is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ” (Heb 13:21).

I'm sure you will agree that both passages quoted were written to Christians, and apply to believers who have received the gift of the holy Spirit. THEREFORE God works within believers.

However, sinners are devoid of the Holy Spirit, therefore spiritually dead (Eph 2:1,5). Yet Calvinists insist that unregenerate sinners first receive the Holy Spirit, then repent and believe. This is totally false, but designed to fit their extreme ideas about God's sovereignty and the election of sinners to salvation. Since it is God's will THAT ALL MEN BE SAVED (1 Tim 2:3,4), it is impossible for God to elect some to salvation and others to damnation.

We know that salvation is entirely of God, but conditioned upon the repentance and faith of the sinner (Mk 16:15,16; Jn 3:36; Acts 3:19; 17:30). If God COMMANDS ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT, then all men are capable of repentance. So are you in agreement with this?

 

[netchaplain]

Netchaplain,
I know you have quoted another source.

Not sure what you mean here.

I believe salvation and faith are simultaneous, for to perform anything God desires, one must have Him working it in you to "will" (desire) and to do" (accomplish) it (Phl 2:13).

 

[Malachi]

Not sure what you mean here.

"For the remission of sins; not that forgiveness of sin could be procured either by repentance, or by baptism; for this is only obtained by the blood of Christ."
Gill--http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/acts/gill/acts2.htm

I believe salvation and faith are simultaneous, for to perform anything God desires, one must have Him working it in you to "will" (desire) and to do" (accomplish) it (Phl 2:13).

As I mentioned this was written to Christians and applicable to Christians, with the indwelling Holy Spirit. Where do you see the Holy Spirit given to sinners without them having FIRST repented and believed?

 

[JLB]

Why do theologians and some Christians try to complicate something which is simple yet supernatural? Why do men try to "figure out" salvation with their limited human intellects?

Salvation is very simple. IT IS THE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE. So to return to Acts chapter 2, and to be clear, here is what happened:
1. Peter preached the Gospel -- faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (vv 21-36).
2. Thousands of Jews were convicted by the Holy Spirit (v. 37)
3. Peter preached repentance (v 38)
4. Over 3,000 Jews believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, repented of their sins, and received Christ as Lord and Savior (v 41)
5. The moment they believed, they were born again because they received the gift of the Holy Spirit (v 38)
6. Those who believed were baptized in water by immersion (v 41).

While that passage (Acts 2:14-41) does not provide every detail in that sequence, the rest of Scripture fills in the details. Of course the blood of Christ was applied to their souls. Of course their sins were remitted immediately. Of course they were justified by faith. There is no such thing as differentiating between "producing salvation" and "receiving it". Everything occurs at the same time. In fact it is simply abbreviated to "believing in God with all his house" in Acts 16:34.

The moment they believed, they were born again because they received the gift of the Holy Spirit (v 38)

If they received the Holy Spirit when they believed, then why does Paul ask these disciples of John -

"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." Acts 19:2

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit, like the baptism in water, comes after a person is born again.

For you do not put new wine in old wine-skins.

First comes believing and being born again, then after that comes Baptism in water and Baptism in the Holy Spirit.



JLB

 

[netchaplain]

"For the remission of sins; not that forgiveness of sin could be procured either by repentance, or by baptism; for this is only obtained by the blood of Christ."
Gill--http://www.ewordtoday.com/comments/acts/gill/acts2.htm

Thanks, I see.

[QUOTE="Malachi, post: 1041057, member: 7498"As I mentioned this was written to Christians and applicable to Christians, with the indwelling Holy Spirit. Where do you see the Holy Spirit given to sinners without them having FIRST repented and believed?[/QUOTE]
That's why it's all simultaneous. When one believes it shows (justifies) that a change (rebirth) has transpired.

 

[Malachi]

If they received the Holy Spirit when they believed, then why does Paul ask these disciples of John - "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" So they said to him, "We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." Acts 19:2

JLB,
While the matter you brought up is indirectly related, I already addressed this in another thread. But to answer your question just look at Acts 19:3 and the phrase "unto John's baptism". So these were disciples who had been baptized by John the Baptist [who had also said that it was Christ who would baptize "with the Holy Ghost" (Mt 3:11)]. These disciples evidently did not know about what happened on the day of Pentecost, and had not received the gift of the Holy Spirit through faith in the Lord Jesus.

Therefore Paul said (Acts 19:4) "that they should BELIEVE ON HIM, which should come after him, that is ON CHRIST JESUS". Obviously they believed, and were baptized "in the name of the Lord Jesus" (Acts 19:5) which was Christian baptism. Now in this particular case (which is unusual) after they were baptized, they received the gift of the Holy Spirit, as well as the spiritual gifts of tongues and prophecy (Acts 19:6).

To see whether this is an exception to the rule, we go through the book of Acts and find that in the cases of the Jews on the day of Pentecost, the 5,000 Jews after that, Saul/Paul, the Ethiopian eunuch, the household of Cornelius, the household of the Philippian jailor, etc.
This is what happened (Tit 3:4 -7):
Faith + Repentance = New Birth
= Gift of the Holy Ghost (simultaneous)
= Baptism WITH the Holy Ghost (simultaneous)
The baptism with the Holy Spirit is for regeneration (Tit 3:4-7). The filling or fulness of the Holy Spirit is for power to witness and victorious living (Acts 4:31; 9:17) following the New Birth.

But to get back to the point that water baptism follows the baptism with the Holy Spirit (the norm for all believers) let's look at Acts 9:4-6; 17-20 where Paul -- the mightiest apostle -- did NOT start speaking in tongues immediately:
4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? [REPENTANCE, FAITH AND GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST] And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do....
17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.[FILLING OF THE HOLY GHOST, NO TONGUES]
18And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. [WATER BAPTISM]
19And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
20And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. [POWER TO WITNESS]
If tongues always accompany the filling of the Holy Spirit, then God would surely have blessed Paul in that manner. In fact if you study the phrase "filled with the Holy Ghost" you will rarely see tongues alongside that in Scripture.

 

[Malachi]

According to Scripture, believing comes FIRST, the new birth comes NEXT (Jn 3:15,15,18, 36; 4:39-43; 6:29,40,47; 7:37-39).
Let's take the last passage and see what the Lord says:
1. If any man thirst -- a desire for salvation within the sinner (conviction and convincing of the Holy Spirit)
2. Let him come unto me -- faith in the Lord Jesus Christ
3. And drink -- gift of the Holy Spirit
4. Rivers of living water -- filling of the Holy Spirit
Sinner do not receive the Holy Spirit first. That is Calvinistic teaching.

 

[iLOVE]

The scripture says it like this, "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God": Ephesians 2:8 NKJV
God’s gifts and God’s call are under full warranty—never canceled, never rescinded. Romans 11:29 Message
When a Christians sins are remitted, it means God doesn't remember those sin(s) any more.

 

[Malachi]

The scripture says it like this, "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God": Ephesians 2:8 NKJV
God’s gifts and God’s call are under full warranty—never canceled, never rescinded. Romans 11:29 Message
When a Christians sins are remitted, it means God doesn't remember those sin(s) any more.

Absolutely. The issue raised here is whether God gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to sinners before they are regenerated so that faith and repentance are produced by the Holy Spirit. That is certainly not in Scripture.
.

 

[JLB]

JLB,
While the matter you brought up is indirectly related, I already addressed this in another thread. But to answer your question just look at Acts 19:3 and the phrase "unto John's baptism". So these were disciples who had been baptized by John the Baptist [who had also said that it was Christ who would baptize "with the Holy Ghost" (Mt 3:11)]. These disciples evidently did not know about what happened on the day of Pentecost, and had not received the gift of the Holy Spirit through faith in the Lord Jesus.

Therefore Paul said (Acts 19:4) "that they should BELIEVE ON HIM, which should come after him, that is ON CHRIST JESUS". Obviously they believed, and were baptized "in the name of the Lord Jesus" (Acts 19:5) which was Christian baptism. Now in this particular case (which is unusual) after they were baptized, they received the gift of the Holy Spirit, as well as the spiritual gifts of tongues and prophecy (Acts 19:6).

To see whether this is an exception to the rule, we go through the book of Acts and find that in the cases of the Jews on the day of Pentecost, the 5,000 Jews after that, Saul/Paul, the Ethiopian eunuch, the household of Cornelius, the household of the Philippian jailor, etc.
This is what happened (Tit 3:4 -7):
Faith + Repentance = New Birth
= Gift of the Holy Ghost (simultaneous)
= Baptism WITH the Holy Ghost (simultaneous)
The baptism with the Holy Spirit is for regeneration (Tit 3:4-7). The filling or fulness of the Holy Spirit is for power to witness and victorious living (Acts 4:31; 9:17) following the New Birth.

But to get back to the point that water baptism follows the baptism with the Holy Spirit (the norm for all believers) let's look at Acts 9:4-6; 17-20 where Paul -- the mightiest apostle -- did NOT start speaking in tongues immediately:
4And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? [REPENTANCE, FAITH AND GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST] And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do....
17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.[FILLING OF THE HOLY GHOST, NO TONGUES]
18And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. [WATER BAPTISM]
19And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
20And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. [POWER TO WITNESS]
If tongues always accompany the filling of the Holy Spirit, then God would surely have blessed Paul in that manner. In fact if you study the phrase "filled with the Holy Ghost" you will rarely see tongues alongside that in Scripture.

Brother the scripture is clear that Paul spoke in tongues.

I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 1 Corinthians 14:18


The scripture is clear that believers speak in tongues.

And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; Mark 16:17


Have you been Baptized in the Holy Spirit, like the scripture teache, and do you speak in tongues?


JLB

 

[JLB]

The scripture says it like this, "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God": Ephesians 2:8 NKJV
God’s gifts and God’s call are under full warranty—never canceled, never rescinded. Romans 11:29 Message
When a Christians sins are remitted, it means God doesn't remember those sin(s) any more.

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Romans 11:29

The calling for Israel to be saved is irrevocable.

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11:21-22


Otherwise you also will be cut off. This clearly dismisses the idea of OSAS.


JLB

 

[Malachi]

Brother the scripture is clear that Paul spoke in tongues.

Did you read the passage in Acts 9? No tongues. Please read that passage once again and show us where tongues are mentioned for Paul. Certainly later. But not with Ananias present at that time.

Speaking in modern tongues is not evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit. It was in the apostolic churches BUT NOT ALWAYS. But "speaking the Word boldly" was definitely evidence. See Acts 4:31; 9:20,22:
And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
20And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
22But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.