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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Growth Soteriological Chronology
- Thread starter netchaplain
- Start date
netchaplain
Member
It's while we were sinners, He called us unto His Son, by implanting the desire ("draw"), which involves all that accompanies receiving salvation, and is a call which was foreknown by God from eternity past (from everlasting--to everlasting). The saving of an individual is an inevitable and sure occurrence awaiting to definitely transpire, and is foreknown by God.
Malachi
Member
When you say "He" above you are referring to God the Father. But as every Christian knows, the triune Godhead is One, so the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are involved in this "call". Now notice what each one says regarding this "call" to sinners:
God the Father (1 Tim 2:3,4)
3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
God the Son (John 12:32):
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
God the Holy Spirit (Rev 22:17):
17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Thus it is very clear that all the Divine Persons in the Godhead invite or call ALL MEN TO SALVATION.
If your belief is true, then ALL SHOULD BE SAVED inevtiably, surely, definitely .
If your believe is false, then ONLY SOME WILL BE SAVED.
So do you believe that all sinners (the whole world) will be saved? That is the logical conclusion of your beliefs. But do you see THE FALLACY of your beliefs? Perhaps now you really have to sit down and think this through and let all of us Christians know whether all men will be saved.
netchaplain
Member
I'm uncertain by your intent concerning "all." Do you believe everyone will be saved or am I misunderstanding you comment?
The "whsoever" in Rev 22 referrs to all who are present at that time, which are all who were in "the first resurrection."
Malachi
Member
Here's what I am referring to:
As I showed from Scripture God calls all men to repentance and salvation. Therefore according to your belief about the inevitability of salvation after that call, ALL should be saved. But since all are not saved, it is clear that even though the call goes out to all mankind, only some respond to the Gospel call. Therefore salvation is not inevitable. There must be a response from sinners. And you don't believe that human beings have the capacity to respond to the Gospel, even though Scripture indicates otherwise (Rom 10:14-21). Please study this passage carefully.
That is incorrect. But be that as it may, what about John 3:15,16 and a multitude of other passages? Are you denying that they apply to all mankind?
netchaplain
Member
The inevitability of being saved which I mentioned is in reference to those whom God already knows will be saved.
I believe the phrase "Who will have all men to be saved" (1Tim 2:4) is in reference to the sense that all sorts of people will be saved, e.g. some from "every tongue" and "nation," and every type of person, i.e. kings and peasants, rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, young and old, greater and lesser sinners.
Malachi
Member
If that is what God meant, then that is what would have been written. Obviously this verse has to be distorted in order to prevent your teaching from being thoroughly refuted. This is not the only Scripture which includes "ALL MEN" meaning all humanity.
Here's another one which cannot be distorted (Acts 17:30): "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth ALL MEN every where to repent." Please be careful you do not distort the plain meaning of this Scripture. God will hold you accountable.
chessman
Member
When you originally said “thus it is very clear…” then made your truth claim (All men are invited or called to salvation), you referenced the following passage for evidence:
1. 1 Tim 2:3-4,
2. John 12:32
3. Rev 22:17
4. Acts 3:17
And now you’ve reference:2. John 12:32
3. Rev 22:17
4. Acts 3:17
5. Acts 17:30
WRT Acts 17:30I think there, God commands (which is different than calling or inviting, by the way) “all people everywhere” to repentance once they have heard the true Gospel, upon their hearing the true Gospel (thus loosing their prior ignorance of the true Gospel by specifically hearing (hopefully they are listening to the Holy Sprit as you rightly point out) that God “raised Him from the dead”. They are then and only then “provided proof” of God that they were formerly “ignorant” of before they heard. Once again, it’s not really a verse that’s literally meant to apply to every single individual on Earth. (Obviously it seems from the context of the verse.)
Read the context in/around Acts 17:30 (or at least the entire sentence thru to verse 31). Verse 30 is not even a whole sentence where as verse 31 shows that it’s not “ALL MEN” (i.e. every individual who’s ever lived on Earth) that Acts 17 is talking about to begin with.
Acts 17:30-31 and 32 (LEB) Therefore although God has overlooked the times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has set a day on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness by the man who he has appointed, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead. 32 Now when they heard about the resurrection of the dead,…
Do you think that “all men” throughout the whole world has heard that he has been raised Him from the dead? I don’t. here’s why:
Rom 10:18 (LEB) And how will they hear about him without one who preaches to them?
The implied answer is; they have not and will not hear about Him (that is that the God-man dead and was raised from the dead) unless someone tells them.
Obviously , to me, the context in/around all four of the passages you provided (including this one in Acts 17) narrows it's meaning for “all men” that which the author specifically intended for us to understand. Just as netchaplain has already pointed out to you a couple of times now. We do communicate in this way and it's perfectly understood by the listener all the time. Get it? All the time. I didn't mean literally all the time.
Additionally, commanding people (parangellei, as is used in Act 17:30), is a different action on God’s part than calling or inviting or wanting (thelei) or drawing (helkyso) them to begin with.
1 Tim 2:3-4 (LEB)This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
Additionally, drawing all people (i.e. the non-Jewish peoples of the world) to Himself through the Gospel message which is about to be sent to them is quite different than accepting/rejecting the Jewish prophets sent only to the Jews.
John 12: 32 (LEB) And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
There Jesus was talking to Jews and telling them, that He was about to draw (helkyso) in the Gentiles. It’s not even the same word (or meaning) that 1 Tim 2 uses.
Additionally, if you’d like an example of where “All people everywhere” seems to mean what you claim it means in these other passages, read Rom 1. There it seems, Paul truly is speaking of 'all people' in the sense that you claim these other verses are, in my opinion. Even then, I doubt his talking about pre-born infants, for example, since within this context he qualifies his statement (through the context) with those people that express “impiety and unrighteousness” and suppress the truth. Which I don’t think reasonably applies to infants nor do I think God has Wrath for infants (another topic).
Rom 1:18-20 (LEB) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all impiety and unrighteousness of people, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what can be known about God is evident among them, for God made it clear to them. For from the creation of the world, his invisible attributes, both his eternal power and deity, are discerned clearly, being understood in the things created, so that they are without excuse.
None of the first three are a command to repentance.
17 And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. 18 But the things which God foretold through the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he has fulfilled in this way. 19 Therefore repent and turn back...
read the context again. He's talking to Jews at the Temple who had the OT Scriptures and should have know about His Christ within them. But they were just plain ignorant of it. In other words, they should have known about repentance through their prophets but didn't. But the point is, this passage is NOT about a command to repentance for every individual in the whole world. Yet you referenced it as one to support you truth claim.
Malachi
Member
Chessman,
Calvinists can dodge and weave and alter the plain meaning of multiple Scriptures in order to justify their erroneous teachings. But the fact remains that:
1. God COMMANDS ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT.
2. Therefore God commands all men everywhere to obey the Gospel.
3. Therefore God wills all men everywhere to get saved.
You claim erroneously that Acts 17:30 does not apply to all of humanity. Let me show you why you are in error from the context:
24God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
If after reading this passage anyone should dare deny that God commands absolutely all humanity to repent and be saved, then that person makes God a liar.
chessman
Member
I understand your claim in premise 1 (though it's not really a proven fact just yet) and how you think it proves your conclusion:
Let's check it out though:
Does your "all men everywhere" = "absolutely all humanity" even include the ignorant humanity that lived in the times past which God winked at?
And if it does, why does God say they were ignorant, if in fact He had command even them to repentance?
What are the ignorant of on your view?
Also, your premise 1 is simply a re-wording of your conclusion (minus the absolutely), so I'm not really that surprised that you hold to that conclusion.
Malachi
Member
Chessman,
You have failed to undertand that these are NOT my "premises" or "my conclusions". This is not some "theory" or abstract discussion. God's Word has been presented to you in all its fulness and plain meaning. If after reading it you still disagree with God, then you answer to Him. If you, or netchaplain, or anyone then continue to insist that God's salvation is not for absolutely all of humanity, you resist God and the Holy Spirit, because the Lamb of God took away THE SIN OF THE WORLD (Jn 1:29).
netchaplain
Member
I believe I'm completely misunderstanding you, I surely have no idea of what you've replied here.
I do not think it's a matter of what we think God means, but what He has revealed in His Word, which in this issue is that there's no doubt that He foreknows everything. And even in sharing this with you I'm uncertain if it addresses our discussion in any way that you would consider.
I would also recommend not making accusations, even if you think them true, it's not fellowship based, and we should always remain with what is towards fellowship, or we can't have any!
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chessman
Member
Ah, but it's not God that I'm disagreeing with. Rather, I’m merely/specifically disagreeing with your original claim that "God draws or calls or invites all humanity" (meaning every single individual person that's ever lived on Earth) to repentance within any of the verses that you’ve posted so far.
There might even be a verse or more that does say that, and you could be justified in your claim. However, my points were that it’s not a justified claim, via Acts 17:30
Here’s why:
1. As I pointed out, Acts 17 doesn't even use the word for draw or call or invite (or now your new claim, salvation). It says commands (not draw, call, invite or save). It's a different word altogether, obviously.
2. Acts 17 specifically says that command occurs, when and only when (not in times past) people (all people) have “heard about he resurrection of the dead, The Man appointed (Christ), and been provided proof”. Not prior to them hearing those things. Prior to that, they are ignorant people. And un-commanded people.
3. Paul’s talking about what God commands to people when “when they heard about the resurrection of the dead”.
Those were (and remain) three valid points concerning Acts 17. I only repeat them here since you didn’t address them. I will not repeat them again.
Addressing your counter points to the points I made above, about Acts 17:
You said:
1.
a. Let’s just assume you’re right here for a minute, and that it is true that “Calvinists can dodge and weave and alter…” How, exactly, does that turn God’s “command” to people when they hear the true Gospel (to include the Holy Spirit commanding them to repentance upon their hearing it) into Acts 17:30 saying; God draws/invites all people everywhere throughout all time to repentance, even those that never hear that command? Even those ignorant of the Gospel, such as an infant? I don’t get how what you’ve said here changes what’s stated in Acts 17. Can you explain further how your statement above changes what Acts 17 says into what you are claiming that it says?
b. But the fact is, I’m not a Calvinist. In fact, I don’t know when he was born, when he died, or what he taught. And I sure don’t know when he was resurrected. I guess you could say I’m ignorant about Calvinism. Just like some members of humanity don’t know when Christ was born, when Christ died or when Christ was resurrected. Or what Christ means. They are ignorant of the Gospel of Christ. <Wink, wink>
2. Would you mind answering my question from earlier:b. But the fact is, I’m not a Calvinist. In fact, I don’t know when he was born, when he died, or what he taught. And I sure don’t know when he was resurrected. I guess you could say I’m ignorant about Calvinism. Just like some members of humanity don’t know when Christ was born, when Christ died or when Christ was resurrected. Or what Christ means. They are ignorant of the Gospel of Christ. <Wink, wink>
3.
a. First, nobody has made that claim or insisted that “God's salvation is not for absolutely all humanity” here. Where did that come from?
b. Second, if you think I have made that claim, then you are mis-reading what's being said by me.
c. Third, if you think Acts 17:30 says God draws or invites all humanity everywhere throughout all time to repentance (meaning every single person that’s ever lived, even those that are ignorant of the Gospel of Christ), then you are mis-reading that text too. See my reasons 1, 2 and 3 as to why that’s true.
4. And last, but not least, you re-posted Act 17:24-31 (stopping just prior to the context defined within verse 32, I noticed) underlining and bolding the context that shows, in this passage’s context, that Paul’s most certainly is NOT talking about distinctions between Jews and Gentiles (as some of the other verses you originally quoted are). I understand that this context is about “the world”, “all nations”, etc. and thusly I never claimed that it wasn’t. But guess what else the context is about; people “when they heard about the resurrection of the dead”, see v32 (i.e. when they hear about the Gospel of Christ. You didn’t underline that part, for some reason. But, that is what Paul’s saying.b. Second, if you think I have made that claim, then you are mis-reading what's being said by me.
c. Third, if you think Acts 17:30 says God draws or invites all humanity everywhere throughout all time to repentance (meaning every single person that’s ever lived, even those that are ignorant of the Gospel of Christ), then you are mis-reading that text too. See my reasons 1, 2 and 3 as to why that’s true.
V 23: I even found an altar on which was inscribed, ‘To an unknown God.’ Therefore what you worship without knowing it, this I proclaim to you— 24 the God who made the world and all the things in it…
He’s talking about people (in all the nations of the world) being commanded to repentance when they hear the Gospel of Christ, for the first time (not before). These people in Athens (just like other people around the world) had never, not once, heard the Gospel of Christ nor been commanded to repentance when they did hear it.
~ 2,000 years later, in A.D. 2015, billions of people have heard it and been “commanded to repentance” through hearing it. But guess what? Billions have not heard it also, nor have they been commanded to repentance through hearing it. They are ignorant of it, just like those men in Athens were at one time.