Speakiing of getting "prayer" just right...

[jeff77]

I did not get that you were suggesting that.

You're being too nice and you're trying to see the good in what Jeffy has to say. Me? When I see garbage I'm not as accommodating. I've seen the damage false doctrine does to people. I hate it with all my being.

Maybe I am seeing the good. Can you please point out the bad in a more helpful way?

 

[Willie T]

I did not get that you were suggesting that.

You're being too nice and you're trying to see the good in what Jeffy has to say. Me? When I see garbage I'm not as accommodating. I've seen the damage false doctrine does to people. I hate it with all my being.

That's pretty much the distinction, or difference here... Jeff doesn't resort to things like calling someone named Jethro, "Jethie"... nor does he look for things to hate. Jeff teaches what he believes he sees Jesus teaching, love for others. He may not have everything right, but he tries to emulate his Savior.

 

[jeff77]

2.4 No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

 

[Willie T]

Sorry, Jethro, you're being a little to negative for me this morning.... I have some friends to go hug.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Maybe I am seeing the good. Can you please point out the bad in a more helpful way?

Yes, I can.
I learned what prayer looks like from the Bible. We have some very good examples in the Bible of what faith filled, relational prayer looks like.

2 Then Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD, 3 and said, "Remember now, O LORD, I beseech You, how I have walked before You in truth and with a whole heart, and have done what is good in Your sight." And Hezekiah wept bitterly. 4 Then the word of the LORD came to Isaiah, saying, 5 "Go and say to Hezekiah, 'Thus says the LORD, the God of your father David, "I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; behold, I will add fifteen years to your life. (Isaiah 38:2-5 NASB)

Weeping? Looking at a wall? How religious! How ritualistic!

My heart surges with faith when I read examples of prayer like this. And they lead me into the same kind of passionate, effectual prayer that they experienced. Look how honest he is. Look how helpless he is. But look how faithful and confident he is that he can approach God that way. But I can't think of any examples of prayer in the Bible upon which Jeff can base his doctrine and that could somehow inspire faith in me to pray in the flippant way that he's talking about.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That's pretty much the distinction, or difference here... Jeff doesn't resort to things like calling someone named Jethro, "Jethie"... nor does he look for things to hate.

If he was a member of this forum I would not address him that way.

And I make no apologies for hating this person's false doctrine.

He may not have everything right, but he tries to emulate his Savior.

How can he be doing that when his doctrine about prayer is not even close to what Jesus, or anyone else in the Bible, did?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Sorry, Jethro, you're being a little to negative for me this morning.... I have some friends to go hug.

I apologize for directing this topic at you personally where I have done that, instead of confining my criticism of it to Jeff (in the OP,not our Jeff, lol) and the doctrine itself.

 

[Jesse]

There is ample evidence in the Bible that Jesus did practice formal prayer, He was Jewish after all and he taught his disciples how to say a formal prayer, touching on all the "points" we should be praying about: the Kingdom come, forgiveness, asking God to forgive us for our sins - these are the reasons (not limited to) that Jesus taught us to pray. We also see Jesus prayed on his knees:

Luke 22:42 He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

Hebrews 5:7 During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

Luke 6:12 One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God.

There are plenty more examples Jesus left for us in in regards to prayer. Intentional is how I see Jesus' prayer life, He deliberately went off in solitude to pray, he prayed on His knees, his prayers sometimes involved hours and hours, they involved tears and loud cries. He petitioned for us in his prayer in John, we should do likewise for other people.

The way I see it, a powerful prayer life is part of the transformation in conforming to Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There are plenty more examples Jesus left for us in in regards to prayer.

Yes, opening up the scriptures about prayer is like opening up a fire hydrant. That's why I've hesitated to do that. There is so much to cut and paste about that.

Intentional is how I see Jesus' prayer life, He deliberately went off in solitude to pray...

Yes, 'intentional'. I think you're hitting the nail on the head. Intentional means setting aside time and space to do it. Not just indulge it as you are busy about life's affairs. Though there is obviously merit and necessity in doing that too.

he prayed on His knees, his prayers sometimes involved hours and hours, they involved tears and loud cries. He petitioned for us in his prayer in John, we should do likewise for other people.

I like how the KJV puts it:

"The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." (James 5:16 KJV)

If one's prayer life is not that, don't get rid of prayer by changing it into an unBiblical model. Get an effectual and fervent, Biblical prayer life!

The way I see it, a powerful prayer life is part of the transformation in conforming to Christ.

Which is the point I'm making. If your prayer life is dead, get transformed, don't do away with Biblical prayer!

 

[Willie T]

The guy starting at 3:19 pretty much echoes my prayers.

 

[Willie T]

Jesse,
You would not believe what the subject of the sermon was this morning, That's right, our prayer life.
If you did not keep the link, I will send it to you by PM when it finally gets posted later in the week. I think you would appreciate it.

 

[Jesse]

Why does that not surprise me that it was on prayer. haha

Starting at 3:19 in the video - that was a great prayer!

I lost all my pms when reba banned me - lol - if you could re-send the link that would be great. Thank you.

 

[Willie T]

I'm glad you no longer have to deal with that PMS. It's not a fun time.

When Jim, our sound man, finally posts that sermon (He's kind of pokey.), I'll shoot you a Private Mail.

 

[Jesse]

I'm glad you no longer have to deal with that PMS. It's not a fun time.

When Jim, our sound man, finally posts that sermon (He's kind of pokey.), I'll shoot you a Private Mail.

Ok, thanks.

I can pm and have that capability, it's just on my old account whatever anyone sent me has been wiped out. This is a new account.

 

[Willie T]

Ok, thanks.

I can pm and have that capability, it's just on my old account whatever anyone sent me has been wiped out. This is a new account.

Ladies of the forum.......... There is proof, positive, there are still some pretty decent young men in the world.

 

[Blake]

The guy starting at 3:19 pretty much echoes my prayers.

That was a GREAT prayer.

 

[Willie T]

That was a GREAT prayer.

Yes, if we can only learn (or "unlearn") God doesn't expect, or want, the gigantic "effort" and spotlighted performance we've been indoctrinated to make prayer out to be. It's just sincere, heart felt talking with God. Adam and Eve walked and talked with God in the cool of the evening....... Just two kids, and their Dad, being together and loving. (But we "need" more... or is it that we just WANT something more demonstrative?)

But religion (us) feels that original plan has to be added to, and "done right." The same attitude that showed itself in the Disciples when they asked for some kind of model to follow for praying, although they had all the scriptures showing them examples of true communion with God... and, before them, the Israelites asking for a king, although they already had God as their real king. And all the sacrifices.... God said, plainly, that He never wanted them... It was us who had to have all that... copying all the gods we had known in the various nation.

We just cannot accept God's simple plan. We have to devise complications that we think show true "worship".

 

[Blake]

Yes, if we can only learn (or "unlearn") God doesn't expect, or want, the gigantic "effort" and spotlighted performance we've been indoctrinated to make prayer out to be. It's just sincere, heart felt talking with God. Adam and Eve walked and talked with God in the cool of the evening....... Just two kids, and their Dad, being together and loving.

But religion (us) feels that original plan has to be added to, and "done right."

Brother I used to be Orthodox. I know all about prayers of effort! Lately I pray like this...

"I'm sorry I don't talk to You as much as I should. Help me make my time management more obedient to Your will."

"Lord have mercy on me..."

"Forgive me Father. I know better than that."

"Set a watch over my lips."

"Shape me into your image. Less of me Lord, more of You."

A lot of Christians today think this is incorrect. But I believe better is one short, sincere prayer than a lengthy prayer where you're trying to woo God over with length and waxing poetic. Believe I read something like that in a parable about a Pharisee and a tax man.

 

[reba]

Why does that not surprise me that it was on prayer. haha

Starting at 3:19 in the video - that was a great prayer!

I lost all my pms when reba banned me - lol - if you could re-send the link that would be great. Thank you.

 

[Willie T]

Brother I used to be Orthodox. I know all about prayers of effort! Lately I pray like this...

"I'm sorry I don't talk to You as much as I should. Help me make my time management more obedient to Your will."

"Lord have mercy on me..."

"Forgive me Father. I know better than that."

"Set a watch over my lips."

"Shape me into your image. Less of me Lord, more of You."

A lot of Christians today think this is incorrect. But I believe better is one short, sincere prayer than a lengthy prayer where you're trying to woo God over with length and waxing poetic. Believe I read something like that in a parable about a Pharisee and a tax man.

The only thing with me is that I find myself thanking God for His forgiveness, rather than asking if He will forgive me. Maybe it's just semantics to some people, but it's a remembrance mindset to me, and it seems to be an important matter.
But, that's just me.