Speaking in Tongues Demonstrated

[Nick]

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This is the exact same attitute that some denominations that do not speak in tongues take towards denominations that do. One good example are some Presbyterian churches. Just because they distort scriptures and teach that tongues are dead and no longer applicable today and have no faith in that spiritual gift whatsoever, they are quick to point fingers at other charismatic churches or Christians and cry "cult" or "demonic". It's no surprise that such churches, as far as I know, are the ones that least engage in missionary works or active evangelism !

Tina, please. I could not let this pass.

My church does not have the speaking in tongues. I am not denying that people today speaking in tongues, but just because the Spirit chooses to use tongues in some churches and not others doesn't mean that those who don't have the tongues are not a true 'evangelistic' church. My church is renowned for its evangelism, and yet we have not had one person speak in tongues.
From my observation, many of the churches that speaking of tongues is believed to be, these churches preach the prosperity gospel. Now that is just my observation. I'm not quite sure what it means. So you can understand some of our skepticisms involving churches that do speak in tongues, espeically those that make a big deal about it. It is just one of the spiritual gifts.
Because I haven't seen it personally, the whole speaking in tongues thing does weird me out a little. Just sayin'.

Tina, if you notice, many of the churches around the world that have massive healing services and other miracles are in places like Asia and Africa, where they're needed. In Acts 2, Pentacost was so massive becasue it was the starting up of the church - it needed a kick start. Well that's what's happening in Africa at the moment.

 

[John Zain]

John this doesn't need to turn into a word fighting match. If we really care about what Scripture says we should explore it. I have written a paper on what I believe Scripturally is the true "Baptism of the Spirit" and when a believer receives it if you would like to read it. I have shared it on my site as a Word document. You are free to disagree with it but please use Scripture to back up your reply. Vic was wise to note that these threads often degenerate into petty fights. Let's not do that this time around please. Edit: Sorry I had to remove the link because my site is messed up right now. If you want to read it please PM me with your email address and I'll just send it to you.

Hi Josh,

Where have you been for the last month?

I suspect my answer to your Word doc is here ...
http://www.christianforums.net/f17/baptism-holy-spirit-scriptural-study-31052/

You should understand that for millions this is not some theological theory, etc.
It's all about personal experience. Otherwise, who would believe in it?

And, for many years, God has been using pentecostals and charismatics to
evangelize the world with the message confimed by with signs and wonders ...
just like the early church did.

Now, if all of this is being done by Satan and his demons, please tell us,
because it would be good for everyone to know one way or the other.

I strongly advise you to pay close attention to an expert, Bob Carabbio, in POST #23

 

[Free]

Thanks, I'll tell my wife that I talked to a real expert who has the baptism with lots of gifts, etc.,
and that she's crazy.

P.S. I'd better be ready to tell her why you're an expert. Please explain.

I am not claiming to be an expert and I have never implied that your wife is crazy. I am merely going by what Scripture says. You are reading things into Scripture that just aren't there.

And be careful in what you think about me, you have no idea of where I am coming from.

And, for many years, God has been using pentecostals and charismatics to
evangelize the world with the message confimed by with signs and wonders ...
just like the early church did.

And for many of those years Satan has crept in unaware with false doctrine and false teachers, which has become a significant problem that most pentecostals and charismatics remain ignorant of. For all their emphasis on gifts, discernment seems to be in extremely short supply.

Google Andrew Strom.

 

[Tina]

.

My church does not have the speaking in tongues. I am not denying that people today speaking in tongues, but just because the Spirit chooses to use tongues in some churches and not others doesn't mean that those who don't have the tongues are not a true 'evangelistic' church.

I absolutely agree .... I am part of a big Anglican church where not everyone speaks in tongue and those that do not speak it are not any less effective in spreading the gospel and evangelizing than those who do speak it. But let's be honest, no English-speaking person will go to Non-English speaking remote parts of the world to evangelize if they cannot speak in tongues, for obvious reasons. I have no problems at all with people who do not speak in tongues, what I do have a problem with is them calling the gift "demonic" . I have noticed time and again members of this forum dismissing prophecies, tongues and such just because they don't have the gifts, their churches do not teach about the gifts, or worst still, promote a false teaching that such practices are of the devil !

From my observation, many of the churches that speaking of tongues is believed to be, these churches preach the prosperity gospel.

I have been part of my church for 11 years now - a church that speaks in tongues .... and I don't recall one single time that prosperity gospel was preached, not one !

Tina, if you notice, many of the churches around the world that have massive healing services and other miracles are in places like Asia and Africa, where they're needed. In Acts 2, Pentacost was so massive becasue it was the starting up of the church - it needed a kick start.

I am glad that finally someone notices this ..... Your observation is accurate !

Which brings me to an important question - Why do only places like Asia and Africa need it ? In my personal opinion, churches in America and Europe need it no less. Churches in America and Europe may appear to have been well established, but that's where many cults are evolving and spreading like wild fire, straying from the true Word of God. Cults are hard to locate in Asia, while on the other side of the globe, good churches are hard to locate in the US or Europe. My ex-fiance is American. He told me that himself.

 

[cyberjosh]

Hi John,

Where have you been for the last month?

I suspect my answer to your Word doc is here ...
http://www.christianforums.net/f17/baptism-holy-spirit-scriptural-study-31052/

Thank you, I will read that. Please PM me your email address and I will send you my study as well.

You should understand that for millions this is not some theological theory, etc.
It's all about personal experience. Otherwise, who would believe in it?

Indeed, the presence and work of the Spirit in us is always personal and edifying. We are commanded to walk by the Spirit, the very principle of conducting our life.

And, for many years, God has been using pentecostals and charismatics to
evangelize the world with the message confimed by with signs and wonders ...
just like the early church did.

I have no issues with Pentecostals or Charismatics. I only care that order is kept in the house of God. I've seen such groups go both ways, and I naturally avoid the extremes. Despite being raised Baptist, in my spiritual beliefs I am probably closer to a Pentecostal.

Now, if all of this is being done by Satan and his demons, please tell us,
because it would be good for everyone to know one way or the other.

The gift of tongues was always a gift of the Spirit and was manifested in the early Church and has continued until today. It never was demonic, but Satan always likes to counterfit the true spiritual experiences of God and it is on those grounds that we would be prudent to show some caution. Satan disguises himself as an angel of light sometimes. Another topic, which I do not, want to discuss here is that of supposedly being "Slain in the Spirit". I am very suspicious of that practice but that is another topic.

I strongly advise you to pay close attention to an expert, Bob Carabbio, in POST #23

I read it. I just want to you to understand, though, that I had a good friend who was my roommate in college who was a Pentecostal, and one day we began discussing the Baptism of the Spirit and he mentioned to me the "second" experience of Baptism after being saved. And although I disagreed with his understanding of it, I was not so prideful as to just dismiss it off-handedly with it being such an important topic of the Spirit's indwelling us and filling us: for why would any Christian not stive to receive the fullness of the Spirit if they had not yet received it? I personally would not give rest to my eyes until I had received it. I was so perturbed in spirit and mind after that discussion and disagreement that we had, that I prayed to God, in tears, honestly asking Him if I had indeed received the Baptism of the Spirit or not when I was saved. That weekend a series of divinely appointed events led me to study every instance of the word power (Greek: dunamis) in the NT to discern what it meant when Jesus said "you will be endued with power from on high", and I wanted to know if all Christians have this power or not, or if only some who receive a "second" baptism. I thorougly searched the Scripture and found consistently and solidly that all Christians are given this power from the Spirit, by which we are expected to live the Christian life. The Christian life is impossible without the Spirit of God empowering us to do it and to sanctify ourselves. Yes, grace set us free from the law, but grace is actually the higher standard (under the law outright adultery was condemned, but under grace even the thought of lust in one's mind was a punishable offense! A much higher standard). All Christians are given this grace by God, and grace is not only a "covering" (passive reception) but also is empowering (active), as God said to Paul, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness". Grace relays to us God's power, given by the Holy Spirit for all Christians. I undeniably saw that power (dunamis) is available to all Christians (many times it is unconditionally assumed to be available to the Christian, through Christ and the Spirit in us) in the NT. Then that weekend it all culminated after a preacher came and spoke a powerful word on the very topic of grace empowering us by the Spirit, and I had a true revelation that had me weeping for joy and incredulity, on my knees, that I indeed had been Baptised in the Spirit! I was set free that very night!

When it comes down to it, I know two essential things concerning this subject:

#1) I have never spoken in tongues.
#2) I AM Baptised in the Spirit and am empowered by His working in me.

My paper explores some of these topics, although rather than being about tongues it speaks more to whether "water" baptism is the "true" baptism or if it is the Baptism of the Spirit. I think you may find it helpful though in discerning my understanding of the Baptism of the Spirit from Scripture. I would welcome your thoughts if you would like to read it.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[John Zain]

My paper explores some of these topics, although rather than being about tongues it speaks more to whether "water" baptism is the "true" baptism or if it is the Baptism of the Spirit. I think you may find it helpful though in discerning my understanding of the Baptism of the Spirit from Scripture. I would welcome your thoughts if you would like to read it.

Josh,
I was very pleased with your response.
Yes, I believe water baptism by immersion is commanded by the Lord,
but necessary for salvation (?), and certainly it is more important than
the Holy Spirit baptism.
Yes, all born-again Christians receive the power of the Holy Spirit,
but it is greater in those with the H.S. baptism, which I believe is
a pre-requisite to receiving any kind of full manifestation of
any of the 9 spiritual manifestations (1 Cor. 12).
And ditto for the 5-fold ministry (Eph. 4:11).
I'm sending my e-mail address and look forward to reading your article.

 

[Nick]

.




I absolutely agree .... I am part of a big Anglican church where not everyone speaks in tongue and those that do not speak it are not any less effective in spreading the gospel and evangelizing than those who do speak it. But let's be honest, no English-speaking person will go to Non-English speaking remote parts of the world to evangelize if they cannot speak in tongues, for obvious reasons. I have no problems at all with people who do not speak in tongues, what I do have a problem with is them calling the gift "demonic" . I have noticed time and again members of this forum dismissing prophecies, tongues and such just because they don't have the gifts, their churches do not teach about the gifts, or worst still, promote a false teaching that such practices are of the devil !

Ok, then we agree. Great!
Interesting thing you raise about missionaries having the gift of tongues, which is essentially speaking in other languages. I don't think they "need" the gift of tongues, as I've seen many learn it. From my understanding, if they had the gift, then they wouldn't have to learn it?

I have been part of my church for 11 years now - a church that speaks in tongues .... and I don't recall one single time that prosperity gospel was preached, not one !

I didn't imply that your particular church had false teaching. Just from my observation of the charastmatic types of churches that I know around Australia. At least in Sydney they seem to go hand in hand so I am naturally suspicious. I try to keep an open mind. I actually went to a pentecostal church for a while a number of years back.

I am glad that finally someone notices this ..... Your observation is accurate !

Which brings me to an important question - Why do only places like Asia and Africa need it ? In my personal opinion, churches in America and Europe need it no less. Churches in America and Europe may appear to have been well established, but that's where many cults are evolving and spreading like wild fire, straying from the true Word of God. Cults are hard to locate in Asia, while on the other side of the globe, good churches are hard to locate in the US or Europe. My ex-fiance is American. He told me that himself.

I see your point about the loss of religion and the growing of cults in the West. But at least they kind of 'have it'. The Africans need it, period. I hear a few preachers saying that in 10 or 20 years they'll start sending African missionaries to the US, UK and Australia! Scary how secular we have become.

 

[jasoncran]

I am not claiming to be an expert and I have never implied that your wife is crazy. I am merely going by what Scripture says. You are reading things into Scripture that just aren't there.

And be careful in what you think about me, you have no idea of where I am coming from.


And for many of those years Satan has crept in unaware with false doctrine and false teachers, which has become a significant problem that most pentecostals and charismatics remain ignorant of. For all their emphasis on gifts, discernment seems to be in extremely short supply.

Google Andrew Strom.

that idiot? and that is because charismatic tend to place sensationalism above what the bible says.

a balence charismatic view is needed, and those are out there.

 

[Free]

that idiot? and that is because charismatic tend to place sensationalism above what the bible says.

a balence charismatic view is needed, and those are out there.

Andrew Strom an idiot? Is that what you are saying? He is the most balanced I have heard and pentecostals and charismatics would do well to heed his words.

 

[jasoncran]

Andrew Strom an idiot? Is that what you are saying? He is the most balanced I have heard and pentecostals and charismatics would do well to heed his words.

i missread the posts on one. when i googled that i came across something. http://www.discerningtheworld.com/2010/03/04/andrew-strom-sends-his-sheep-into-the-unusual/rather like this.

that vision is rather strange when you read but i will take your word free as you arent given to out there theology and recant.

and i know where you come from.

even when i doubted that, it seemed to bear witness.

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh,
I was very pleased with your response.
Yes, I believe water baptism by immersion is commanded by the Lord,
but necessary for salvation (?), and certainly it is more important than
the Holy Spirit baptism.
Yes, all born-again Christians receive the power of the Holy Spirit,
but it is greater in those with the H.S. baptism, which I believe is
a pre-requisite to receiving any kind of full manifestation of
any of the 9 spiritual manifestations (1 Cor. 12).
And ditto for the 5-fold ministry (Eph. 4:11).
I'm sending my e-mail address and look forward to reading your article.

I totally understand where you are coming from, and perhaps we both can benefit from a study of this and discussing this together. I'll keep an eye out for your PM so that I can send my paper to you. I have guests coming over tomorrow, but I'll try to get back to you as soon as I can.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[John Zain]

that idiot? and that is because charismatic tend to place sensationalism above what the bible says.
a balence charismatic view is needed, and those are out there.

Of course, it's the old story, isn't it?
Bible doctrine Truth does NOT depend on people's reactions to it.
Bible doctrine Truth is Truth, period.
What people say and do has NO effect on it.

And it’s the other old story, isn’t it?
Satan saves his greatest attacks, deceptions, etc. to those who are his biggest threat
… those who have the most Truth.

And it’s the other old story, isn’t it?
The gospel is most attractive to the "lesser" amongst us (1 Cor. 1:26+).
And these perhaps are most likely to be deceived by Satan and led into nonsense.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"How does one know if they have the gift of tongues"

The ability to speak in tongues has been a "normal part" of the "Package" commonly referred to by Pentecostals as "the Baptism in the Holy Spirit" - which is seen as conforming to the events of Acts 2:4 when the "enduement of Power" was sent upon the church.

The "Tongue itself" appears normally to come into one's consciousness in the form of "unusual words" in one's mind - and when one speaks them - more flow in, and continue to "flow through" as long as one feels like speaking them. This isn't the "MINISTRY GIFT" of tongues, however - just the ability to speak in a "tongue" which appears to be the ONLY gifting that's fully discretional in operation - i.e. you CAN do it anytime you choose. You CAN'T deliver a "Message in tongues" any time you feel like it - it has to be "Gifted specifically" as noted below.

or the gift of interpreting tongues?

The "Gift of tongues", as a MINISTRY gift/message to the assembled meeting, AND the Gift of "Interpretation" - IN MY EXPERIENCE - operate in a similar fashion - i.e.:

There will be a "message in a tongue" given in the church, and when it's happening, There'll be a "Rising sensation" in my gut - an "Excitement" unique (in my experience) to the presence of the Holy Spirit.

There'll ALSO be a STRONG impression - a "burden" as it were - consisting (in the case of interpretation) of the first phrase, or the first few words of the "Interpretation" to be given.

When the tongue has finished, then I'll speak the few words that I have - KNOWING that more words will come as they're spoken. I'll continue to speak the words that "flow" until they stop coming.

THEN I'll shut up and sit down. AT that point, the "Excitement" and the "Burden" will both be gone.

I PERSONALLY haven't been burdened to deliver a "Tongue" in an open meeting, but the folks who have, indicate the same "Sequence" as described above.

And how do onlookers know if the one with the gift of interpretation is honest or not?

"Confirmation" is really the only way - i.e. another in the congregation ALSO had the interpretation, but wasn't "burdened to deliver it". A LOT of times it doesn't really matter, since the message isn't critical to those who don't "Hear" it really - some may be "convicted" or "Fed" by it, and that would be confirmation in itself.

But in the New Testament, Prophetic utterances (which include interpretation) are SUBJECT TO JUDGEMENT by others in the congregation as noted. and confirmation is REQUIRED before "resources" are committed on the basis of a "Prophetic Word".

One of the last times I gave prophesy, another brother stepped forward immediately and indicated that he'd "Seen" the same thing as a confirmation of the "Word".

 

[Nick]

"How does one know if they have the gift of tongues"

The ability to speak in tongues has been a "normal part" of the "Package" commonly referred to by Pentecostals as "the Baptism in the Holy Spirit" - which is seen as conforming to the events of Acts 2:4 when the "enduement of Power" was sent upon the church.

What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and at what point is one baptised by the Holy Spirit?
If the ability to speak in tongues is a "normal part" of the "Package" received upon being baptised by the Holy Spirit, then what do you say to a Christian that does not have the gift of tongues? Have they been baptised by the Holy Spirit?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and at what point is one baptised by the Holy Spirit?"

Controversial - It's normally an "experience" that comes at a point in time AFTER one is saved, and indwelled by the Holy Spirit - as all Christians are. the normal concept is that "salvation" is when the Holy Spirit "Indwells" a person, and makes him a "Child of God", whereas the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" is when the Holy Spirit COMES UPON a person with an "enduement of power" (as Jesus put it when He told 'em to "Tarry").

"If the ability to speak in tongues is a "normal part" of the "Package" received upon being baptised by the Holy Spirit, then what do you say to a Christian that does not have the gift of tongues? Have they been baptised by the Holy Spirit?"

AH - that's the controversy!!! In a growing percentage of "Baptised in the Spirit" people around the world, "Tongues" ISN'T the "Sign gift" - as it has been normally since 1900. "Healing" is considered as an alternative sign gift by some. Bottom line - if a Christian "Moves" in the power of the Holy Spirit, Boldness and power in ministry, and relationship with Jesus and Father - I'm not arguing about whether they're "Spirit baptized" or not.

I know how it happens FOR ME - which is what I've given testimony of here. But I ALSO know that God is a God of variety, and He DOESN'T always do things in exactly the same way in different times for different folks. Simple as that.

The "Proof of the pudding" is in the presence of power in ministry - which is ALL that matters anyway, don'cha know.

 

[Nick]

"What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and at what point is one baptised by the Holy Spirit?"

Controversial - It's normally an "experience" that comes at a point in time AFTER one is saved, and indwelled by the Holy Spirit - as all Christians are. the normal concept is that "salvation" is when the Holy Spirit "Indwells" a person, and makes him a "Child of God", whereas the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" is when the Holy Spirit COMES UPON a person with an "enduement of power" (as Jesus put it when He told 'em to "Tarry").

Ok, we agree on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but I see that and the baptism of the Holy Spirit as one and the same. Do you have any scripture distinguish the baptism and the indwelling as different events. I agree that the HS can be working in people at different strengths at different times, but I don't think it is called baptism.

"If the ability to speak in tongues is a "normal part" of the "Package" received upon being baptised by the Holy Spirit, then what do you say to a Christian that does not have the gift of tongues? Have they been baptised by the Holy Spirit?"

AH - that's the controversy!!! In a growing percentage of "Baptised in the Spirit" people around the world, "Tongues" ISN'T the "Sign gift" - as it has been normally since 1900. "Healing" is considered as an alternative sign gift by some. Bottom line - if a Christian "Moves" in the power of the Holy Spirit, Boldness and power in ministry, and relationship with Jesus and Father - I'm not arguing about whether they're "Spirit baptized" or not.

So basically one can tell if they have the baptism of the HS by either tongues or healing? Where in scripture does it say that this is the case?

I know how it happens FOR ME - which is what I've given testimony of here. But I ALSO know that God is a God of variety, and He DOESN'T always do things in exactly the same way in different times for different folks. Simple as that.

If I understand you correctly at this point, the signs of the HS are either tongues or healing, BUT God can do whatever he wants anyway. Didn't you second point here just refute your first? If God chooses variety, then how come THE signs of the HS be tongues and healing?

The "Proof of the pudding" is in the presence of power in ministry - which is ALL that matters anyway, don'cha know.

I agree. Faith will produce works, by the HS. We are saved for works, not by works. :yes

There are different gifts of the spirit, not just healing and tongues. Have a read of 1 Corinthians 12.

 

[John Zain]

Ok, we agree on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but I see that and the baptism of the Holy Spirit as one and the same. Do you have any scripture distinguish the baptism and the indwelling as different events. I agree that the HS can be working in people at different strengths at different times, but I don't think it is called baptism. ... So basically one can tell if they have the baptism of the HS by either tongues or healing? Where in scripture does it say that this is the case?

A lot of the verses you need to look at are here ...
http://www.christianforums.net/f17/baptism-holy-spirit-scriptural-study-31052/

 

[Bob Carabbio]

This and That -

Ok, we agree on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but I see that and the baptism of the Holy Spirit as one and the same. Do you have any scripture distinguish the baptism and the indwelling as different events. I agree that the HS can be working in people at different strengths at different times, but I don't think it is called baptism.

The Biblical record appears to indicate that the "Indwelling of the Holy Spirit" initially occurred the night of the resurrection (John 20:22, Luke 24:45) when Jesus "breathed on them" and said "Receive the Holy SPirit". An "Impartation" is what happens when God "Breathes" on humans.

And Jesus' WORDS were to stick around Jerusalem until you are "ENDUED" with power. "Enduement" is an External clothing with - power so apparently not the "Same" as an "indwelling".

So basically one can tell if they have the baptism of the HS by either tongues or healing? Where in scripture does it say that this is the case?

Of course I didn't say that and we both know it. in 3 of 4 instances (Acts 2, Acts 10, Acts 19) where folks are specifically said to have receive the "Baptism in the Spirit, Tongues is specifically mentioned - AS A SIGN that the "baptism" had occurred. in Acts 8, the "overt indication" is NOT defined, but was definitely present.

One of the controversies in the "Full Gospel" genre is that question of "Initial evidence" - and the AoG - and many OTHER Pentecostal Denominations have "made a doctrine" that "tongues" is the BIBLICAL "initial evidence" - which nobody questioned for decades - UNTIL the Charismatic outpouring which was a "Different breed of cat", and wasn't based on what the Pentecostals (who had little to do with it) thought, or what their "Doctrine" was. GENERALLY the Charismatics ALSO "Spoke in tongues" when they were "baptized in the Holy SPirit" but some didn't, and ONLY experienced "Power in ministry", a Deeper hunger for the word, and a passion to Witness.

It does seem "Logical", however to make the ASSUMPTION that if a person IS "Baptized in the Holy SPirit" which is a
"baptism of power" - there WOULD be some overt evidence of it. And I stated that "Healing" - in some places/cultures is seen as an indication. There may be 100 different "indications" for all we know.
SOMETHING "overt" (but not defined) happened in Acts 8 that Simon SAW - that led him to offer ca$h to the apostles -

If I understand you correctly at this point, the signs of the HS are either tongues or healing, BUT God can do whatever he wants anyway. Didn't you second point here just refute your first? If God chooses variety, then how come THE signs of the HS be tongues and healing?

Addressed above.

There are different gifts of the spirit, not just healing and tongues. Have a read of 1 Corinthians 12.

Preach'in to the choir here, 'ol buddy. The OP, however was specifically ABOUT "Tongues" - so that's what I specifically addressed.

But 1 Cor 12 isn't really ABOUT the Gifts - it's about trying to bring "unity" in the Corinthian church which was "Factioning" over the "Gifts" - and the "Hand" WAS saying to the "Foot", I have NO NEED of you.

And the "List of 9" in 1 Cor 12 is actually a "Mixed list" tossed in as an "illustration" containing individual giftings (like "Interpretation"), AND "Categories" of Gifts (like "Healings" and "Tongues" - and "Miracles") nobody really knows who many individual "Giftings" there are - and it really doesn't matter.

 

[Nick]

Re: This and That -

Ok, we agree on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but I see that and the baptism of the Holy Spirit as one and the same. Do you have any scripture distinguish the baptism and the indwelling as different events. I agree that the HS can be working in people at different strengths at different times, but I don't think it is called baptism.

The Biblical record appears to indicate that the "Indwelling of the Holy Spirit" initially occurred the night of the resurrection (John 20:22, Luke 24:45) when Jesus "breathed on them" and said "Receive the Holy SPirit". An "Impartation" is what happens when God "Breathes" on humans.

And Jesus' WORDS were to stick around Jerusalem until you are "ENDUED" with power. "Enduement" is an External clothing with - power so apparently not the "Same" as an "indwelling".

So basically one can tell if they have the baptism of the HS by either tongues or healing? Where in scripture does it say that this is the case?

Of course I didn't say that and we both know it. in 3 of 4 instances (Acts 2, Acts 10, Acts 19) where folks are specifically said to have receive the "Baptism in the Spirit, Tongues is specifically mentioned - AS A SIGN that the "baptism" had occurred. in Acts 8, the "overt indication" is NOT defined, but was definitely present.

One of the controversies in the "Full Gospel" genre is that question of "Initial evidence" - and the AoG - and many OTHER Pentecostal Denominations have "made a doctrine" that "tongues" is the BIBLICAL "initial evidence" - which nobody questioned for decades - UNTIL the Charismatic outpouring which was a "Different breed of cat", and wasn't based on what the Pentecostals (who had little to do with it) thought, or what their "Doctrine" was. GENERALLY the Charismatics ALSO "Spoke in tongues" when they were "baptized in the Holy SPirit" but some didn't, and ONLY experienced "Power in ministry", a Deeper hunger for the word, and a passion to Witness.

It does seem "Logical", however to make the ASSUMPTION that if a person IS "Baptized in the Holy SPirit" which is a
"baptism of power" - there WOULD be some overt evidence of it. And I stated that "Healing" - in some places/cultures is seen as an indication. There may be 100 different "indications" for all we know.
SOMETHING "overt" (but not defined) happened in Acts 8 that Simon SAW - that led him to offer ca$h to the apostles -

If I understand you correctly at this point, the signs of the HS are either tongues or healing, BUT God can do whatever he wants anyway. Didn't you second point here just refute your first? If God chooses variety, then how come THE signs of the HS be tongues and healing?

Addressed above.

There are different gifts of the spirit, not just healing and tongues. Have a read of 1 Corinthians 12.

Preach'in to the choir here, 'ol buddy. The OP, however was specifically ABOUT "Tongues" - so that's what I specifically addressed.

But 1 Cor 12 isn't really ABOUT the Gifts - it's about trying to bring "unity" in the Corinthian church which was "Factioning" over the "Gifts" - and the "Hand" WAS saying to the "Foot", I have NO NEED of you.

And the "List of 9" in 1 Cor 12 is actually a "Mixed list" tossed in as an "illustration" containing individual giftings (like "Interpretation"), AND "Categories" of Gifts (like "Healings" and "Tongues" - and "Miracles") nobody really knows who many individual "Giftings" there are - and it really doesn't matter.

Thanks for the clarification mate. I've got to do some further study on this.

 

[cyberjosh]

The Biblical record appears to indicate that the "Indwelling of the Holy Spirit" initially occurred the night of the resurrection (John 20:22, Luke 24:45) when Jesus "breathed on them" and said "Receive the Holy SPirit". An "Impartation" is what happens when God "Breathes" on humans.

And Jesus' WORDS were to stick around Jerusalem until you are "ENDUED" with power. "Enduement" is an External clothing with - power so apparently not the "Same" as an "indwelling".

Hi Bob. You are right about enduement and the power coming upon them, but we also see from other Scriptures in the NT that all believers are given this power without exception, indicating it accompanies the indwelling of the Spirit. Also the breathing on them in John would only constitute indwelling for the 12 disciples at that time (if that is how it is to be interpreted) but not for all the 120 in the upper room at Pentecost.

Concerning how all believers are given the power (Greek: dunamis) from the Holy Spirit see my post from the last page here.

God Bless,

~Josh