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Spirit Dwelling in US ?

Butch5 said:
Hi agua,

That's actually what I am considering. Does the Spirit come and go from within our physical bodies or is the Spirit just among us collectively, or maybe both. I don't know if the Spirit can be present when there is sin, that is one of the reasons that has made me wonder about this subject.
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Oky doky Butch. Why do you think the Holy Spirit can't be present when there's sin do you have some scripture that indicates this ? I've heard this before but haven't seen an exegetic presentation yet.

1Pe 1:10-11 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: (11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Do you think the Holy Spirit of promise we are sealed with may indicate indwelling ? Eph 1 Sealed indicates permanence ?
 
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agua. said:
Oky doky Butch. Why do you think the Holy Spirit can't be present when there's sin do you have some scripture that indicates this ? I've heard this before but haven't seen an exegetic presentation yet.

1Pe 1:10-11 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: (11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Do you think the Holy Spirit of promise we are sealed with may indicate indwelling ? Eph 1 Sealed indicates permanence ?
Click to expand...

Hi agua,

That's the question I wanted to consider, can the Holy Spirit be in a person when they sin? I don't know. Being sealed with the Spirit could indicate indwelling which would seem to be continuous, however, I think that passage could also be understood differently. A seal is used to protect the contents of something. In Paul's day a King's seal on a document showed that it was not tampered with. If the seal was broken then the authenticity of the document was in question.
 
Butch5 said:
Hi Deborah,

This is one of the first passages I looked at. I am currently trying to see exactly what it means. However, the words "your" and "you" are both plural. It seems to me that by body Paul is referring to the body of believers in the Corinthian church as a collective group since he uses plural pronouns.
Click to expand...

Yes, I remember you did. But thinking about it I wonder. If Paul was talking about the body of the Church as a whole it would seem to me 'your' would be singular not plural. As in 'one body'.
 
It has been a pleasure reading this thread, thank-you everyone so far for having shared on it.

Your questions brought to my mind a thought.

1 Peter 2:5 NAS
you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
Ephesians 1:14 NAS
who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
  1. Strong #728 = 'money which in purchases is given as a pledge or down payment that the full amount will subsequently be paid'
I believe this is what we feel, we have our pledge from God, which could also be symbolized by the stone.

Revelation 2:17 NAS
'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.'

However the Temple is not yet complete......

Exodus 40:34 NAS
[The Glory of the LORD] Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
2 Chronicles 5:14 NAS
so that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud, for the glory of the LORD filled the house of God.

Revelation 3:12 NAS
'He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore ; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name.

We still can 'go out' because we still sin, we go out of fellowship with the spirit of God. However the promise is that one day we will never go out of the Temple which will be filled will the cloud of God's glory.

Digging
 
Butch5 said:
Hi agua,

That's the question I wanted to consider, can the Holy Spirit be in a person when they sin? I don't know. Being sealed with the Spirit could indicate indwelling which would seem to be continuous, however, I think that passage could also be understood differently. A seal is used to protect the contents of something. In Paul's day a King's seal on a document showed that it was not tampered with. If the seal was broken then the authenticity of the document was in question.
Click to expand...

Ok .Maybe since the main obstacle to indwelling is the possibly that the Holy Spirit can't be present with sin, maybe if you can find scripture to support this it would be helpful. Establishishing the objection ( or not ) might be helpful.
 
Butch5 said:
Hi agua,

That's the question I wanted to consider, can the Holy Spirit be in a person when they sin? I don't know. Being sealed with the Spirit could indicate indwelling which would seem to be continuous, however, I think that passage could also be understood differently. A seal is used to protect the contents of something. In Paul's day a King's seal on a document showed that it was not tampered with. If the seal was broken then the authenticity of the document was in question.
Click to expand...

Does God not see our sin? Is God not present when we sin? That seems to be the question really.
Hmmm....
 
I think we can sin in the presence of the Holy Spirt, when we are simply indwelt. When He is acting as our conscience. I do not think we can sin when we are "in the Spirit" as in when we are receiving a vision or wotnot.
 
Butch5 said:
I'm trying to see if the Holy Spirit actually abides in us not just comes and goes.
Click to expand...
Did you mean Scripturally or just philosophically/theoretically?
John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, in order that he may be with you forever—
2 Corinthians 1:22
and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
4972 sphragízō (from 4973 /sphragís, "a seal") – properly, to seal (affix) with a signet ring or other instrument to stamp (a roller or seal), i.e. to attest ownership, authorizing (validating) what is sealed.
4972 /sphragízō ("to seal") signifies ownership and the full security carried by the backing (full authority) of the owner.
"seal" looses a little strength in the English translation, in my opinion.
WRT Eph 5:18
Butch5 said:
I don't think the Ephesians passage is talking about the Holy Spirit
Click to expand...
Greek Textual analysis:
Nestle GNT 1904καὶ μὴ μεθύσκεσθε οἴνῳ, ἐν ᾧ ἐστιν ἀσωτία, ἀλλὰ πληροῦσθε ἐν Πνεύματι,
Westcott and Hort 1881καὶ μὴ μεθύσκεσθε οἴνῳ, ἐν ᾧ ἐστὶν ἀσωτία, ἀλλὰ πληροῦσθε ἐν πνεύματι,
Three textual compilations use upper case Pi and the others leave it to the reader and/or the context to decide if Paul meant the Holy Spirit, versus just Spirit versus [spirit]. None of the texts actually say Holy Spirit. There modern translations that say Holy Spirit. It's redundant to say Holy Spirit anyway. If it's the Spirit (3rd person of the trinity), it's Holy by definition. I understand that the original texts (which we do not have) likely didn’t have an Upper Case Pi letter for Spirit. But the only concern is what did Paul mean? One only has to read the context to clearly see that Paul is comparing the ‘drunk’ feeling of wine (in overabundance) to the feeling of being filled with ____? Joy? Or rather the Holy Spirit?
But my point is that if all these experts feel that Paul means Holy Spirit then you'd need a pretty good counter argument.
Ephesians 5:18
Amplified Bible (AMP)
18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but ever be filled and stimulated with the [Holy] Spirit.
Ephesians 5:18
New Living Translation (NLT)
18 Don’t be drunk with wine, because that will ruin your life. Instead, be filled with the Holy Spirit,
Ephesians 5:18
Lexham English Bible (LEB)
18 And do not be drunk with wine (in which is dissipation), but be filled by the Spirit,
None that I could find does not at least capitalize 'Spirit'.
WRT any Philosophical argument:
You got kids? As a father, if these kids perform acts against your will on various occasions, do you abandon them or do you have patience with them and stick around?
If we need an Advocate (and we do) how's He going to know what to advocate for (on our side), if He's been leaving us and turning a blind eye all those times we fail?

As for God having to leave cause He's not tough enough to handle it:
Jesus hung on a cross. Pretty evil.

Matthew 16:23
But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”

Jesus (God) could handle it, not sure why the big HS (also God) couldn't just as well.
 
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chessman said:
Did you mean Scripturally or just philosophically/theoretically?
John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, in order that he may be with you forever—
2 Corinthians 1:22
and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
4972 sphragízō (from 4973 /sphragís, "a seal") – properly, to seal (affix) with a signet ring or other instrument to stamp (a roller or seal), i.e. to attest ownership, authorizing (validating) what is sealed.
4972 /sphragízō ("to seal") signifies ownership and the full security carried by the backing (full authority) of the owner.
"seal" looses a little strength in the English translation, in my opinion.
WRT Eph 5:18

Greek Textual analysis:
Nestle GNT 1904καὶ μὴ μεθύσκεσθε οἴνῳ, ἐν ᾧ ἐστιν ἀσωτία, ἀλλὰ πληροῦσθε ἐν Πνεύματι,
Westcott and Hort 1881καὶ μὴ μεθύσκεσθε οἴνῳ, ἐν ᾧ ἐστὶν ἀσωτία, ἀλλὰ πληροῦσθε ἐν πνεύματι,
Three textual compilations use upper case Pi and the others leave it to the reader and/or the context to decide if Paul meant the Holy Spirit, versus just Spirit versus [spirit]. None of the texts actually say Holy Spirit. There modern translations that say Holy Spirit. It's redundant to say Holy Spirit anyway. If it's the Spirit (3rd person of the trinity), it's Holy by definition. I understand that the original texts (which we do not have) likely didn’t have an Upper Case Pi letter for Spirit. But the only concern is what did Paul mean? One only has to read the context to clearly see that Paul is comparing the ‘drunk’ feeling of wine (in overabundance) to the feeling of being filled with ____? Joy? Or rather the Holy Spirit?
But my point is that if all these experts feel that Paul means Holy Spirit then you'd need a pretty good counter argument.
Ephesians 5:18
Amplified Bible (AMP)
18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but ever be filled and stimulated with the [Holy] Spirit.
Ephesians 5:18
New Living Translation (NLT)
18 Don’t be drunk with wine, because that will ruin your life. Instead, be filled with the Holy Spirit,
Ephesians 5:18
Lexham English Bible (LEB)
18 And do not be drunk with wine (in which is dissipation), but be filled by the Spirit,
None that I could find does not at least capitalize 'Spirit'.
WRT any Philosophical argument:
You got kids? As a father, if these kids perform acts against your will on various occasions, do you abandon them or do you have patience with them and stick around?
If we need an Advocate (and we do) how's He going to know what to advocate for (on our side), if He's been leaving us and turning a blind eye all those times we fail?

As for God having to leave cause He's not tough enough to handle it:
Jesus hung on a cross. Pretty evil.

Matthew 16:23
But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”

Jesus (God) could handle it, not sure why the big HS (also God) couldn't just as well.
Click to expand...

Hi chessman,

I'll give you my reasons for thinking that Ephesians 5:18 is not talking about the Holy Spirit.

1. As I understand it the original texts were in all caps. If that's the case then every appearance of Spirit would have been in caps.
2. The definite article is not there. Paul didn't say, the spirit, he just said spirit.
3. If this was speaking of the Holy Spirit, why is Paul telling the Ephesians to be filled with Him. Do the Ephesians have control of the Holy Spirit? Can they command the Spirit to fill them when the desire? If anything I would think the Spirit would take control of them the not the other way around.

When Pau said, be filled, the Greek word translated filled is in the imperative mood, it's a command. I just don't see why Paul would command the Ephesians to be filled with the Holy Spirit. It would seem to me that in order to follow that command they would have to control the Holy Spirit.
 
I think I need to clarify what I'm talking about. I'm not questioning whether God can indwell someone whether they are in sin or not. What I'm basically trying to get at is whether we should understand the Greek preposition "en" as either "in" or "with" or maybe it's both depending on context .The sin issue what I'm trying to get at it's what made me wonder how we look at the Greek word "en".
 
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