Spirit, soul, and body.

[toddm]

My issue is that in man there is no differece between soul and spirit.

Of COURSE there is a difference between body and soul.

I would agree w/ this assertion.

 

[LaCrum]

Glorydaz,

It’s really interesting that you started this thread because I just started a book by Pastor Jack Hayford about the Holy Spirit and his role in the renewing of our soul. He makes a very clear distinction that the soul is different from the spirit and the body. He compares our Spirit as the tabernacle, the Soul as the city surrounding it, and the Body as the land around the city. He talks about when we’re saved, our Spirit is the part of us that is immediately renewed, and thus re-establishes us into our right relationship with God. He then goes onto say that even though this happens, the walls in our lives (our soul) is still broken down and in need of repair. And that is the purpose of the Holy Spirit, to rebuild our insides (Souls) that are wrecked by sin despite us being in a right relationship with God. I think you’re definitely on the right track.

 

[glorydaz]

Glorydaz,

It’s really interesting that you started this thread because I just started a book by Pastor Jack Hayford about the Holy Spirit and his role in the renewing of our soul. He makes a very clear distinction that the soul is different from the spirit and the body. He compares our Spirit as the tabernacle, the Soul as the city surrounding it, and the Body as the land around the city. He talks about when we’re saved, our Spirit is the part of us that is immediately renewed, and thus re-establishes us into our right relationship with God. He then goes onto say that even though this happens, the walls in our lives (our soul) is still broken down and in need of repair. And that is the purpose of the Holy Spirit, to rebuild our insides (Souls) that are wrecked by sin despite us being in a right relationship with God. I think you’re definitely on the right track.

That's a good analogy. I find it all quite fascinating, and it really does help understand why we need a renewed mind. Since the Word speaks of the inner man, which would be the spirit, our renewal begins there. It is through the spirit we connect with the Holy Spirit. It is through the spirit that we receive life. We are dead in our sins until then. Paul did not say that our spirit is living, but that our spirit is life. As believers, a part of our being is now life itself.

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

As we see in 1 Cor.6:17 "But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit." We're joined with Christ in one spirit....the Holy Spirit doesn't speak to our mind or our emotions (soul), but to our spirit.

That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Once we're filled with the Holy Spirit, He can renew our mind and take control of our emotions.

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

According to Romans 8:6, “the mind set on the spirit is life and peace.†Like the spirit, the mind can also become life....the mind and the spirit become an inseparable unit. The mind must be joined to the spirit and always relying in the spirit. Thus we become the "new man". It doesn't happen over night, but we press on.

 

[Godfrey]

There are two interesting teaching letters by Derek Prince:

#10 Spirit, soul and body
#11 Spiritual or soulish?

At the end of #11, there is a remarkable testimony by a German psychiatrist: as he read #10, his spirit and soul separated within him.

 

[glorydaz]

There are two interesting teaching letters by Derek Prince:

#10 Spirit, soul and body
#11 Spiritual or soulish?

At the end of #11, there is a remarkable testimony by a German psychiatrist: as he read #10, his spirit and soul separated within him.

Those were great...thanks for sharing. Understanding that we have three distint parts really makes a difference in our walk. As we subject our soulish man to our spiritual man we can truly have a renewed mind. Our spiritual discernment then becomes the mind of Christ without input from our own understanding. I really believe that's one of the hardest things for man to comprehend...we surrender our mind to the spirit...lean not on our own understanding.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

 

[Rick W]

I've been thinking about the spirit and/or soul. How is it that everything in the physical body can be in place and undamaged yet the dead body doesn't live? What IS that spark of life? People die of a broken heart, loneliness and such. OK, maybe at the time of death something physical does goes wrong. But after death all is fine again yet we can't make the dead live again even to an unconsciousness level. Pretty much like the tale of the Frankenstein monster but in that fantasy the new-found technology of the time concerning electricity was used. Something still had to be added. What is missing? The spirit perhaps?

 

[Godfrey]

Those were great...thanks for sharing.

Glad you liked them. He was a great man of God.

I've lost count of the number of times I've read, heard, said and even preached, "I am a spirit - I have a soul - I live in a body." Then one day it became real to me. I unthinkingly flipped open Colin Urquhart's In Christ Jesus to a page where he was explaining the apparent paradox of Heb.10.14:

... because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Two sentences leapt out at me:

YOU HAVE BEEN MADE PERFECT FOR EVER.
YOUR SOUL IS BEING MADE HOLY.

All of a sudden I had the revelation: Who am I? I am that new spirit that the Lord had put in me years ago. It was like a minute change in position causing a total change in perspective. There was nothing I had to do or could do to be justified, to be in right relationship to God, to be accepted in the Beloved, because Christ was in me, was that new spirit in me, and had been since the moment I was saved years ago. What remained was the sanctification of my soul - but I know, even if I haven't had the experience of that German psychiatrist, that my soul is not the essential me.

It makes all the difference.

 

[glorydaz]

Those were great...thanks for sharing.

Glad you liked them. He was a great man of God.

I've lost count of the number of times I've read, heard, said and even preached, "I am a spirit - I have a soul - I live in a body." Then one day it became real to me. I unthinkingly flipped open Colin Urquhart's In Christ Jesus to a page where he was explaining the apparent paradox of Heb.10.14:

... because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Two sentences leapt out at me:

YOU HAVE BEEN MADE PERFECT FOR EVER.
YOUR SOUL IS BEING MADE HOLY.

All of a sudden I had the revelation: Who am I? I am that new spirit that the Lord had put in me years ago. It was like a minute change in position causing a total change in perspective. There was nothing I had to do or could do to be justified, to be in right relationship to God, to be accepted in the Beloved, because Christ was in me, was that new spirit in me, and had been since the moment I was saved years ago. What remained was the sanctification of my soul - but I know, even if I haven't had the experience of that German psychiatrist, that my soul is not the essential me.

It makes all the difference.

You're need on another thread I can think of, brother.

 

[veteran]

Veteran...that's very interesting. I hadn't considered the soul being raised instead of the flesh.
I'm going to have to re-read what you posted a couple of times to get it in full...if I'm reading it correctly.

It would fit with these verses...none of these can be speaking of the body.
But the soul in place of the body...that's a thought.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The way I'm covering it is in a literal sense, not in a religous context, instead considering the meaning of the terms The Bible uses, especially that from Apostle Paul in 1 Cor.15 and 2 Cor.5. In other words, our Lord's meaning in that Matthew 10:28 verse is in a literal context, not a religious one.

1 Cor 15:53-54
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Those underlined words are 4 separate Greek words in the NT manuscripts. The "and" acts as a divider between two different operations.

"corruptible" = Greek 'phthartos' (decayed, perishable) = flesh body
"incorruption" = Greek 'aphthrsia' (unending existence) = "spiritual body" or "image of the heavenly"

That part above is ONLY about the change from the flesh body to the heavenly body (or "spiritual body").

But the next part after the "and" is about the condition of the soul...

"this mortal" = Greek 'thnetos' (liable to die) = mortal
"immortality" = Greek 'athanasia' (deathlessness) = immortality

In Matt.10:28, the word "hell" is actually the word 'geena'. That word geena is a pointer to the "lake of fire" event of Rev.20:14. Recall that the abode of hell, Satan, death, and the wicked all go into the "lake of fire". Hell is a place of holding, the "lake of fire" is an event of destruction at the end of Christ's "thousand years" reign. And that "lake of fire" event is called the "second death" per that same Rev.20:14 verse.

The first death is the death of the flesh body. That's the body our Lord said not to fear those which can kill it. The destruction of the body ("spiritual body") and soul in the "lake of fire" event is the "second death"; that's what is destroyed by God. How can we know that's the kind of body God will destroy at the "second death"?

In Matt.22:30 our Lord said those of the resurrection as "as the angels of God in heaven". That means in the angelic like heavenly state. So do angels have flesh bodies? No. That's why they don't marry nor are given in marriage in Heaven. Also per John 5, our Lord Jesus said at the sound of His voice 2 types of resurrection will occur at the same time, a resurrection unto life for the righteous, and another resurrection unto damnation for the wicked.

Satan is an angel, and we know the angels which rebelled with him are to be destroyed also. So which body do they have that will be destroyed? And what condition does that show their souls are in?

 

[Godfrey]

Veteran, are you saying that the resurrected do not have physical bodies? Because the resurrected Lord assuredly did.

 

[Benoni]

A soul is your mind your intellect and your reason. You spirit is your essence of your being; the part of you is undefiled by this earth and the sin of Adam. To be spiritual is to hear God within your spirit (with in); Soulish is to hear from the carnal mind; with out

Adam became a living soul according to.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

James 1:21
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

The word save means to be saved; deliver, set free; it is your carnal mind that needs to be delivered; you Spirit is God’s.

At the same time Adam walked with God in the Cool (Spirit) of the day. Cool

Genesis 3:8
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

Only time the word cool this word was translated cool was in Genesis 3:8. Cool from Strong’s 7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):

KJV-- air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

Our spirit was created not formed like the soul when God created us in His image, on the sixth day. If we were created in God's image and God is a spirit then we to are in essence a spirit.

Notice the soul needs to be saved according to the verses I listed above; but the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[veteran]

Veteran, are you saying that the resurrected do not have physical bodies? Because the resurrected Lord assuredly did.

A flesh body like we have today? No, for our Lord's Body was transfigured, even though His Body felt like flesh to Thomas. The spiritual body is not a ghost, yet it's still not a body like the one we have today either.

Remember, Christ appeared out of nowhere to His disciples in a closed room, appearing right among them in their midst. That's to show us the resurrection body can have all the attributes of a physical body, yet still be of the heavenly dimension. Paul did say that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God in 1 Cor.15, neither can corruption inherit incorruption. And that means the type of bodies we have now. If that were not true there would be no need for our flesh bodies to be changed at the twinkling of an eye to the resurrection body.

I fail to grasp why so many don't understand this difference, often thinking their going to get a new flesh body like they have today, when the one today gets sick and dies.

 

[Benoni]

Amen. Look at Adam before the fall, he was neither male or female in his beginning. He walked and talked with God in the garden. I take a glorious body over this dying piece of flesh.

Veteran, are you saying that the resurrected do not have physical bodies? Because the resurrected Lord assuredly did.

A flesh body like we have today? No, for our Lord's Body was transfigured, even though His Body felt like flesh to Thomas. The spiritual body is not a ghost, yet it's still not a body like the one we have today either.

Remember, Christ appeared out of nowhere to His disciples in a closed room, appearing right among them in their midst. That's to show us the resurrection body can have all the attributes of a physical body, yet still be of the heavenly dimension. Paul did say that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God in 1 Cor.15, neither can corruption inherit incorruption. And that means the type of bodies we have now. If that were not true there would be no need for our flesh bodies to be changed at the twinkling of an eye to the resurrection body.

I fail to grasp why so many don't understand this difference, often thinking their going to get a new flesh body like they have today, when the one today gets sick and dies.

 

[LaCrum]

Amen. Look at Adam before the fall, he was neither male or female in his beginning. He walked and talked with God in the garden. I take a glorious body over this dying piece of flesh

That's not exactly true.

Genesis 1:27

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 

[Benoni]

And how does Genesis 1:27 contradict what I said, it supports it. Notice it says man was created male and female, it does not say Adam and Eve were created male and female. This did not happen until the seventh day, (context)

Amen. Look at Adam before the fall, he was neither male or female in his beginning. He walked and talked with God in the garden. I take a glorious body over this dying piece of flesh

That's not exactly true.

Genesis 1:27

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 

[Godfrey]

Veteran, are you saying that the resurrected do not have physical bodies? Because the resurrected Lord assuredly did.

A flesh body like we have today? No, for our Lord's Body was transfigured, even though His Body felt like flesh to Thomas. The spiritual body is not a ghost, yet it's still not a body like the one we have today either.

...

I fail to grasp why so many don't understand this difference, often thinking their going to get a new flesh body like they have today, when the one today gets sick and dies.

Oh, OK - I thought for a moment we were veering near gnosticism

 

[LaCrum]

And how does Genesis 1:27 contradict what I said, it supports it. Notice it says man was created male and female, it does not say Adam and Eve were created male and female. This did not happen until the seventh day, (context)

You're confused, the original Hebrew language used to describe "man" as "male" and "female" was worded in a way of equality, that they were equals living together, not they they were genetically androgenous. The concept and naming of "Eve" did not occur until after the fall, when God had to set an order of authority because man and woman's "oneness" that had existed had been ruined. And, God rested on the seventh day.

 

[LaCrum]

A flesh body like we have today? No, for our Lord's Body was transfigured, even though His Body felt like flesh to Thomas. The spiritual body is not a ghost, yet it's still not a body like the one we have today either.

Remember, Christ appeared out of nowhere to His disciples in a closed room, appearing right among them in their midst. That's to show us the resurrection body can have all the attributes of a physical body, yet still be of the heavenly dimension. Paul did say that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God in 1 Cor.15, neither can corruption inherit incorruption. And that means the type of bodies we have now. If that were not true there would be no need for our flesh bodies to be changed at the twinkling of an eye to the resurrection body.

I fail to grasp why so many don't understand this difference, often thinking their going to get a new flesh body like they have today, when the one today gets sick and dies.

I don’t think I quite agree with you. Biblically, Jesus’s body was resurrected; his physical, flesh body came out of the tomb. He didn’t have a completely new body, it was his old body made new. It’s wrong tod ay it only “felt†like flesh but wasn’t. No where in the Bible does it make such as assertion. Jesus’s body was obviously enhanced in ways it was not before, but it still was flesh, as his scars from his crucifixion still remain on him. His old body was not completely abandoned nor completely kept.

Not only that, God never intended us to live in a spiritual state for all eternity, that’s why at the resurrection he’s going to create a new heaven and a NEW earth. Otherwise, why wouldn’t he just leave us all up in Heaven? Why create a new earth? Earth is in the physical realm and thus will be inhabited by physical beings.

God will restore our bodies, not completely wipe them out and start over, just like he did with Jesus. There’s an excellent book on this I’ve read, and I can give you some good scripture that supports this notion.

The reason our bodies get sick and die is because our flesh is corrupted. Each time a cell reproduces, it doesn’t make a perfect match of itself, and each cell is slightly less perfect than the one before, hence aging. You don’t think in our glorified bodies our cells would not be able to reproduce perfectly? Thus no aging. I’m not saying that’s how it will be, but I’m not completely throwing out the possibility either.

As for 1 Cor 15, you need to go to the root of the Greek words to understand what Paul is saying. When he says “physicalâ€, it is derived from the Greek word “psycheâ€, which is the word for “soulâ€. Currently we live in bodies ruled by our soul, as opposed to when we’re resurrected we will live in bodies ruled by the “spiritualâ€. The Greek word for that is “pneuma†or “pneumatikosâ€. This word is not used to describe what something is made out of, but rather the force behind it. So, our body will be spirit driven as opposed to soul driven.

 

[veteran]

A flesh body like we have today? No, for our Lord's Body was transfigured, even though His Body felt like flesh to Thomas. The spiritual body is not a ghost, yet it's still not a body like the one we have today either.
.
.

I don’t think I quite agree with you. Biblically, Jesus’s body was resurrected; his physical, flesh body came out of the tomb. He didn’t have a completely new body, it was his old body made new. It’s wrong tod ay it only “felt†like flesh but wasn’t. No where in the Bible does it make such as assertion. Jesus’s body was obviously enhanced in ways it was not before, but it still was flesh, as his scars from his crucifixion still remain on him. His old body was not completely abandoned nor completely kept.

Not only that, God never intended us to live in a spiritual state for all eternity, that’s why at the resurrection he’s going to create a new heaven and a NEW earth. Otherwise, why wouldn’t he just leave us all up in Heaven? Why create a new earth? Earth is in the physical realm and thus will be inhabited by physical beings.

God will restore our bodies, not completely wipe them out and start over, just like he did with Jesus. There’s an excellent book on this I’ve read, and I can give you some good scripture that supports this notion.

The reason our bodies get sick and die is because our flesh is corrupted. Each time a cell reproduces, it doesn’t make a perfect match of itself, and each cell is slightly less perfect than the one before, hence aging. You don’t think in our glorified bodies our cells would not be able to reproduce perfectly? Thus no aging. I’m not saying that’s how it will be, but I’m not completely throwing out the possibility either.

As for 1 Cor 15, you need to go to the root of the Greek words to understand what Paul is saying. When he says “physicalâ€, it is derived from the Greek word “psycheâ€, which is the word for “soulâ€. Currently we live in bodies ruled by our soul, as opposed to when we’re resurrected we will live in bodies ruled by the “spiritualâ€. The Greek word for that is “pneuma†or “pneumatikosâ€. This word is not used to describe what something is made out of, but rather the force behind it. So, our body will be spirit driven as opposed to soul driven.

1 Cor 15:49-50
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(KJV)

How is Paul speaking of a flesh body of today ("image of the earthy") in contrast to the "spiritual body" ("image of the heavenly") in the above? How does that "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" still agree with what our Lord Jesus said to Thomas about His Resurrected Body not being a ghost body, but having flesh and bones? The "flesh and blood" phrase in the Greek means literal flesh and blood.

I agree our Lord's Body was a flesh body transfigured... to the Heavenly order, keeping the marks of His crucifixion. But I'm not willing to say His Resurrected Body was the exact same type of body He had before the transfiguration. Our Lord even telling Mary to not touch Him after He was raised, because He had not yet ascended to The Father also shows there's a distinction. We don't have to always go to the Greek to understand these Biblical examples.

I Jn 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.
(KJV)

I know a lot of people believe the bones in the casket are going to literally put on new flesh in the resurrection, but even Eccl.12:5-7 shows that's not the order of the raising of the dead. The order Paul taught in 1 Cor.15 also agrees with the Eccl.12:5-7 order. When Hebrews 13:2 reminds us to be hospitible to strangers, because some have entertained angels unaware, that means the way they manifested on earth was just like us, as far as shape, form, physical attributes, etc. The Biblical examples even shows they are able to eat man's food, able to live on this earth. Yet there still is a difference. And that difference will be revealed when the vail that separates the earthy from the heavenly is one day removed (Isaiah 25).

Moreover, the Greek for the word "spiritual" in 1 Cor.15:44 in "spiritual body", can also be translated to 'breath'. And what was it that God breathed into the man Adam, and Adam became a living soul? The 'breath of Life' (Gen.2). That's the heavenly order type body Paul was speaking of, one made up of that breath of Life. That's also the spirit part in the Eccl.12:5-7 example, which returns to God upon flesh death, which also declares that the flesh goes back to the earth where it came from. Obviously then, with those who have already died, they will not have gone through a transfiguration of their flesh body like our Lord Jesus did.

This also agrees with how our Lord gave the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16, which is not just a parable meant for the unbelieving Jews. He would not mislead us with those operations He gave in that story about both Lazarus and the rich man dying, their flesh bodies buried, and yet they appear in Paradise where there's a great gulf fixed border between two sides. Even with that story our Lord Jesus gave, it shows it's not the flesh body of today that goes into hell, where the rich was taken.

 

[veteran]

Amen. Look at Adam before the fall, he was neither male or female in his beginning. He walked and talked with God in the garden.

I have to somewhat agree with LaCrum on what she said also. The man Adam was not created with female attributes, as the word "rib" in Gen.2:22 comes from the Hebrew root 'tsala' which can mean 'to curve'. I believe it's referring to the DNA helix, which is curved. I believe that's how God formed 'woman' out of Adam's DNA.

So what is the Gen.1:27 phrase "male and female created He them" possibly referring to?

In Gen.1:26 the "man' being spoken of in the Hebrew is the word 'aadam' without the Hebrew article and particle, like mankind in general. But in Gen.1:27 the word "man" is specifically 'eth ha aadam', with the Hebrew article and particle. And, in Gen.2:7 the Hebrew for "man" is once again 'eth ha aadam', meaning a particular man, 'this man Adam'. (See an Interlinear Bible in the Hebrew for this distinction, for it was not carried into the KJV translation.)

What does that mean? In one part God is speaking about a 'specific' man Adam He created (eth ha aadam). But with the sole word 'addam' by itself, it means mankind in general per the Hebrew. In Gen.2:7 God formed the specific man Adam in His Garden. But in Gen.1:26 with the sole word 'aadam', and with the Gen.1:27 phrase "male and female created He them", it's about people in general, both male and female in general. Hebrew 'aadam' without the article and particle means 'mankind'.

In English grammar it would mean, God created 'man' meaning mankind in general, and then He created 'this man' meaning a specific man, i.e., the man Adam.

Because of that, I see God's 6th day creation involving both the creation of the man Adam (aadam with article and particle, pointing to a specific man) He placed in His Garden to till the soil, and... also the creation of the races of mankind (the 'aadam' with no article and particle). I believe those races were in the "land of Nod" outside His Garden, which is where Cain was later booted out to.

This brings up a possible interpretation problem, because in Gen.2 God rests on the 7th day, and then we notice He had not yet created a man to till the soil. If Gen.1 & 2 is followed in chronological order, it would point to the idea of an 8th day creation for the 'man Adam' in His Garden to till the soil. I believe that Gen.2:7 is referring back to the 6th day creation of Gen.1 for the man Adam He formed to till the soil.