Spirit, soul, and body.

[glorydaz]

I thought it would be interesting to look at some of the aspects of the spirit, soul, and body of man. How they work together, how we got where we are, and what the Lord has planned for us. I'm putting up a few thoughts to start us off. Maybe it will help us see how we're being transformed into the image of our Lord. Hopefully we can share our thoughts and not argue too much.

Our body houses our soul (inner man) comprised of our mind, emotions, and will.
Our spirit consists of our conscience, intuition, and our ability to fellowship with God.

Man was created to love God, but when satan tempted Eve, he attacked her first in her mind and emotion, causing her to doubt God, and grow resentful toward God. Then she exercised her will and disobeyed.

..."Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?... 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat,"

The result of Adam and Eve's sin had far-reaching consequences.
Man's conscience remained intact, and his intuition, but his spirit was deadened to fellowship with God, his soul was contaminated by sin, and his body became sinful flesh. "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." (Rom. 7:17) Sin separated man from God, and it was only through God's grace that we could enter back into fellowship with Him by faith. God is spirit, so it had to be through our spirit that we could know God.

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Paul prays our whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless unto our Lord's coming.
We're to be transformed into the image of Christ.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In Hebrews 4, we see the three parts of man again... v12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
When Jesus died on the cross, he became the propitiation for our sins, tearing apart the veil that separated man from God, and giving him access once again to God's presence. The first step to regaining what was lost at the fall was repentance and a new birth. Man's spirit had to be regenerated. The Holy Spirit was given.

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Our soul (mind, emotion, and will) had to be purified.

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

And our mind renewed.

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Then, finally, our bodies will be transformed at our Lord's coming.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[Drew]

I thought it would be interesting to look at some of the aspects of the spirit, soul, and body of man. How they work together, how we got where we are, and what the Lord has planned for us. I'm putting up a few thoughts to start us off. Maybe it will help us see how we're being transformed into the image of our Lord. Hopefully we can share our thoughts and not argue too much.

Our body houses our soul (inner man) comprised of our mind, emotions, and will.
Our spirit consists of our conscience, intuition, and our ability to fellowship with God.

The soul-body distinction you draw is a popular one but I see no evidence for it at all in the Scriptures.

Man's conscience remained intact, and his intuition, but his spirit was deadened to fellowship with God, his soul was contaminated by sin, and his body became sinful flesh. "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." (Rom. 7:17)

This is an obviously circular argument - it presumes a soul-body distinction that needs to be otherwise substantiated.

There is nothing in this text that requires us to see a body-spirit distinction - the text works perfectly well on a reading where sin infects the entirety of the human person, with no necessary soul-body distinction.

Paul prays our whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless unto our Lord's coming.
We're to be transformed into the image of Christ.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This text no more supports a body-soul distinction than does the statement "she has a nice body and a nice personality" suggests that there is a distinct "thing" called the "personality" that can survive apart from the body. One cannot, legitimately anyway, simply assume that a distinction in substance is being drawn between body and soul in the above.

 

[TheCatholic]

If you are interested in the POV of many Christians, try reading sections 362 through 367 AT THIS LINK. I offer it only for consideration, but am constrained by forum rules from discussing it further

 

[glorydaz]

No, of course not, if one is willing to ignore scripture that speaks of a spirit, soul, and body, like 1 Thess. 5:23 and Heb. 4:12....or James, "For as the body without the spirit is dead."

There's a lot of scripture you have to explain away, Drew, to deny man is made in the image of God.

The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

This isn't the body that is being restored.

He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Looking into heaven, Stephen called on the Lord to reciever his spirit...just as the Lord did on the cross.

And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Our body is just our tabernacle that we "put off".

Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

 

[glorydaz]

If you are interested in the POV of many Christians, try reading sections 362 through 367 AT THIS LINK. I offer it only for consideration, but am constrained by forum rules from discussing it further

Yes, the separation of the body and soul/spirit at death is all throughout scripture.
Thanks for the link.

 

[Drew]

No, of course not, if one is willing to ignore scripture that speaks of a spirit, soul, and body, like 1 Thess. 5:23 and Heb. 4:12....or James, "For as the body without the spirit is dead."

I never denied the spirit-body distinction - check my posts. I have denied the soul-body distinction.

In an event, the fact that there are texts which refer to "body and soul" does not, repeat not, mean that these are necessarily distinct entities. That is something you are simply assuming and is not supported by any Biblical text.

I will repeat. When a secular atheist says "she has a nice body and a good mind", does that person believe that the mind exists independently of the body?

Of course not. So, as we see, Biblical texts which mention both body and soul do not necessarily imply these are distinct entities.

 

[Drew]

A key issue here is whether readers are even willing to "take off their Platonic spectacles" - the way of conceiving of this issue that has been bequeathed to us by a system of thought arising from Greek culture.

It was the Greeks, not the Jews, who thought of the human person as constituted by a body and a consciousness bearing soul (or even spirit) that lives inside it.

Yes, if you look through those Greek spectacles, you will, of course, read "body and soul" and see in such an endorsement of the soul-body distinction. But when you understand what the concept "soul" meant to the Jew, you will realize the error.

 

[TheCatholic]

.......if you look through those Greek spectacles, you will, of course, read "body and soul" and see in such an endorsement of the soul-body distinction. But when you understand what the concept "soul" meant to the Jew, you will realize the error.

And if you look at the Trinity through Jewish eyes you will see that it is false: There is no Trinity. And if you look at the virgin birth through Jewish eyes you will see that it is false: There is no virgin birth.

Oh no, wait a minute - thats not right is it. Hmmm, better rethink the whole Jewish point of view theory.

I do not follow rabbis, I follow bishops, who succeeded the apostles.

(I am so grateful that God invented sarcasm. It comes in so handy sometimes.)

 

[Drew]

(I am so grateful that God invented sarcasm. It comes in so handy sometimes.)

Unfortunately, your argument is not successful and your sarcasm is therefore without a target.

The situations are entirely disanalogous. I am pointing out the folly of taking a Jewish concept - the soul - and interpreting it as though the Bible were written by Greeks.

The Trinity is not a Jewish concept to begin with,, therefore, when the concept is developed, there simply is no issue of violating the Jewish usage. Same with the virgin birth.

 

[TheCatholic]

Unfortunately, your argument is not successful and your sarcasm is therefore without a target.

I disagree. Your whole POV is based on what the Jewish understanding of "soul" is. My point is: Who cares what it is? They are wrong about Jesus, wrong about Mary, wrong about the Trinity, wrong about the Resurection, wrong about..... ...well, I think you get the point.

What matters is, what does the Church teach? As much as I love the Jews, I don't care what THEY teach

 

[glorydaz]

It's actually of great import that the believer recognize the difference between the soul and the spirit. While the body is just the tent, the soul and spirit are closely entwined. Which is why Paul speaks of the importance of dividing the soul from the spirit. Our mind resides in our soul. We're called to renew our mind. We cannot enter into rest if we're controlled by carnal man. There is no reason for Paul to speak of three different parts of man if there aren't three parts. To say the body and soul are the same is the error. The soul is the inner man, the body houses the inner man.

9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

When Jesus died on the cross, He gave up His Spirit to God. While His body was in the grave, He descended to Sheol/Hades. He couldn't have done that if His soul was in the grave with His body.

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

 

[Drew]

Unfortunately, your argument is not successful and your sarcasm is therefore without a target.

I disagree. Your whole POV is based on what the Jewish understanding of "soul" is. My point is: Who cares what it is? They are wrong about Jesus, wrong about Mary, wrong about the Trinity, wrong about the Resurection, wrong about..... ...well, I think you get the point.

What matters is, what does the Church teach? As much as I love the Jews, I don't care what THEY teach

The problem with this is that Paul and all the gospel writers were Jews. It is therefore reasonable to assume that they uses the concepts of their world. We need to remember who these people were and what their cultural context was.

 

[TheCatholic]

.......While the body is just the tent, the soul and spirit are closely entwined. Which is why Paul speaks of the importance of dividing the soul from the spirit......

Actually, I believe man's soul is a spiritual soul, that there is no difference between soul and spirit, despite that reference from Paul.

In Latin, the word for soul is "anima", from which we get the word animation. The soul is the animating force of the body. Actually, all living things have souls since their bodies are all animated.

But here is the tricky part: Man is a "spritual" being: Unlike dogs or cats who do not have spirits, our spirit will return to God. But our spirit will still be alive which means it still has its life force: Its soul. That is why man's soul is a spiritual soul and therefore you cannot seprate soul from spirit in man.

You follow?

The problem with this is that Paul and all the gospel writers were Jews. It is therefore reasonable to assume that they uses the concepts of their world. We need to remember who these people were and what their cultural context was.

Fair point. But it is also fair to say that Paul and the apostles did not have a fully developed understanding of the Trinity, of spirit and soul, and so forth. Kinda hard to believe, but its true. Heck, they didn't even know there would be 27 books in a New Testament.

 

[Free]

I am somewhat divided on the issue but do lean towards spirit, body and soul (possibly akin to 'heart'). The following passages seem to show clear distinctions between body and soul (all Scripture is from the ESV unless otherwise noted):

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luk 12:4 "I tell you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body, and after that have nothing more that they can do.
Luk 12:5 But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!

1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


There are many additional passages in which the use of 'soul' seems to have a different nuance in meaning from the Hebrew 'being', including, but not limited to, the following:

Luk 12:20 But God said to him, 'Fool! This night your soul is required of you, and the things you have prepared, whose will they be?' --the use of 'soul' here seems to preclude the body.

Act 2:27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption. --certainly no one will argue that 'soul' here would include the body.

Act 4:32 Now the full number of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things that belonged to him was his own, but they had everything in common.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

Heb 6:19 We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain,

 

[TheCatholic]

The following passages seem to show clear distinctions between body and soul (all Scripture is from the ESV unless otherwise noted)......

My issue is that in man there is no differece between soul and spirit.

Of COURSE there is a difference between body and soul.

Maybe I was not clear.

 

[glorydaz]

.......While the body is just the tent, the soul and spirit are closely entwined. Which is why Paul speaks of the importance of dividing the soul from the spirit......

Actually, I believe man's soul is a spiritual sould, that there is no difference between sould anbd spirit, despite that reference from Paul.

In Latin, the word for soul is "anima", from which we get the word animation. The soul is the animating force of the body. Actually, all living things have souls since their bodies are all animated.

But here is the tricky part: Man is a "spritual" being: Unlike dogs or cats who do not have spirits, our spirit will return to God. But our spirit will still be alive which means it still has its life force: Its soul. That is why man's soul is a spiritual soul and therefore you cannot seprate soul from spirit in man.

You follow?

Yes, I agree...the spirit and soul are entwined...but not the same.
The soul of man is the outer shell ..the mind and emotions. The spirit can be bound by our minds. When we crucify our flesh ...it isn't speaking of our body, it's speaking of our mind and emotions that fight against spiritual things. We have to die to that self, and allow our spirit to connect with the Holy Spirit to become a spiritual man. I may not be explaining it very well, but I'm hoping you're getting my drift.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

To be carnally minded is to be soulish...to be spiritually minded is to be spiritual.

4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of
God:

 

[mutzrein]

Yes I agree - there definitely is a distinction between the spirit and the soul.

The spirit is of the Spirit and therefore eternal. It is the Spirit of God which gives birth to man's spirit.
The soul is of the flesh and therefore carnal.

 

[TheCatholic]

Yes I agree - there definitely is a distinction between the spirit and the soul.

The spirit is of the Spirit and therefore eternal. It is the Spirit of God which gives birth to man's spirit.
The soul is of the flesh and therefore carnal.

That may be true for animals that have no spirit, but not for man.

As I stated previously:

In Latin, the word for soul is "anima", from which we get the word animation. The soul is the animating force of the body. Actually, all living things have souls since their bodies are all animated. But here is the tricky part: Man is a "spritual" being: Unlike dogs or cats who do not have spirits, our spirit will return to God. But our spirit will still be alive which means it still has its life force: Its soul. That is why man's soul is a spiritual soul and therefore you cannot seprate soul from spirit in man.

So, since we never die, that means our life force never dies, which means the soul cannot merely be "carnal"

 

[veteran]

I see it slightly different, based on the resurrection details Paul gave in 1 Cor.15., and other Scripture like 2 Cor.5.

There he said flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, as neither can corruption inherit incorruption. I believe that perfectly agrees with Eccl.12:5-7 about the flesh body going back to the earthly matter where it came from, and the spirit going back to God Who gave it. The soul part is not mentioned in that Eccl.12 example, but I believe it's included with the spirit part.

So I see the spirit and soul parts as inseparable. But the soul as our real person, our intellect, and our emotions, etc. I see the spirit part as the "spiritual body" Paul mentioned.

2 Cor 5:1-2
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

The "earthly house" is about our flesh body. If it were dissolved, we have another building or house from God, eternal in the heavens, meaning in the heavenly.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
(KJV)

For in this (flesh house) WE groan... meaning what part groans? Our soul, our intellect, our person, the real us part. It desires to be clothed with our house which is from heaven, meaning the heavenly body or "house". And Paul called that heavenly house the "spiritual body" in 1 Cor.15. It's simply a heavenly type body for our soul.

Paul also compared that "spiritual body" with the "natural body", and the "image of the earthly" with the "image of the heavenly", and the idea of a body of corruption vs. a body of incorruption. For death to be swallowed up victory, he said this corruptible must put on incorruption, AND this mortal must put on immortality (1 Cor.15:53). So what's "this mortal" part?

What's this "It" part Paul speaks of here, that is sown in corruption, but raised in incorruption?

1 Cor 15:42-44
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(KJV)

The "spiritual body" is the incorruption part, it's not that. And our flesh body is the corruption part, so it's not that part either. The "It" part is our soul, our intellect, our person.

Since our Lord Jesus mentioned in John 5 that at His coming there's to be both a resurrection unto life, and a resurrection unto damnation, then what makes that difference? The difference is that to have eternal life through Christ, "this mortal must put on immortality". Per the Greek "this mortal" means 'liable to die'. It's about the condition of the soul; it can be either mortal and still liable to perish at the "second death", or it can put on immortality through Christ Jesus and never be subject to the "second death". So which soul condition would those of the resurrection unto damnation be in? Their souls will still be in the 'mortal' liable to perish condition even after they are raised from the dead at Christ's coming.

This is about the inward change of the "new creature" state Paul spoke of. It's what our Lord Jesus declared to Nicodemus about being 'born again' (actually, born from above per the Greek), by receiving The Holy Spirit. It means to have continued existence, eternally. But not for the flesh body, but for the spiritual body with immortal soul after the resurrection. This is why Paul used the idea of the dead saints being only "asleep" until the resurrection at Christ's coming. But for those who refuse Christ Jesus, their soul condition will still be in a liable to perish state, even after they've been raised from the dead. This is why our Lord Jesus used the spiritually dead metaphors within The Gospel, pointing to how the souls of some were 'dead' inside, even while they walked in flesh bodies upon the earth. This is also how our Lord meant that the kingdom of heaven is "within you". We are to simply await the redemption of our soul to that future manifesting of our spiritual bodies as the sons of God.

 

[glorydaz]

Veteran...that's very interesting. I hadn't considered the soul being raised instead of the flesh.
I'm going to have to re-read what you posted a couple of times to get it in full...if I'm reading it correctly.

It would fit with these verses...none of these can be speaking of the body.
But the soul in place of the body...that's a thought.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

And speaking of our Lord...it fits.

Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

The salvation of our souls...it's making sense to me.

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.