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Still able to be saved via "Moses and the prophets"?

O

Orion

Member
Is it possible to make it to Heaven through just reading those thing written by Moses and the prophets? In the story of "Lazarus and the rich man", Jesus seems to indicate that people will make it to Heaven by "Moses and the prophets", and should be so convninced of it that they should believe it over "a dead person coming to tell them".

If it is the case that people can get to Heaven by "Moses and the prophets", then why was it necessary to have a "spotless lamb" for the cleansing of sins? Are those in Judism (again, by following Moses and the prophets) making it to Heaven outside of the "spotless lamb". . . by believing in Jesus as the only way to Heaven?

Are "Moses and the prophets", where once the avenue to Heaven, now actually an avenue to Hell (because it doesn't rest on Jesus as the answer)?
 
Yes, it is possible to achieve salvation through reading those same writings by Moses and the Prophets, because when one reads God's word in faith, truly seeking after Him, the word will always point one to the fulfilled work of Christ. I know this because this is pretty much how I became a Christian in the first place, by reading a lot of the OT stories and prophecies. By the time I got around to reading the Gospel of John, everything fell into place.

In the OT, when a person listened to what Moses and the Prophets taught about God in faith, faith that proved itself via obedience to God, that person was saved. Salvation was not through Moses and the Prophets, salvation was always from God. Moses and the Prophets though carried the truths and the messages of God, so that a person would learn about God.

The problem with the rich man, and apparently his five brothers, is that though they knew of the message of Moses and the Prophets, they didn't listen nor believe. Therefore, they did not respond to the message in faith. They rejected God's message and messengers, therefore they had already rejected God Himself.

The moral of the story is that God has already supplied what we need to be saved. In the OT, things had not been fulfilled, but the faith the OT saints had saved them. In the NT, things have been fulfilled, so many of the OT symbols and types that pointed towards Christ are no longer necessary. What is necessary for salvation is, and always has been, faith that God will keep His promises. This faith is 'proved' by obedience to God. It's not merely lip-service, but a life-changing, life-affirming faith.

However, if you want to try to say that one need only follow the practices in the OT and find salvation in that, the answer is no. But then, the answer was always no. God was never impressed by an outward participation of the letter of the law, if there was no inward faith driving that participation. To outwardly participate in Godly things with no inward faith merely causes one to have the sort of righteousness that is compared to filthy rags.
 
Handy said:
The problem with the rich man, and apparently his five brothers, is that though they knew of the message of Moses and the Prophets, they didn't listen nor believe. Therefore, they did not respond to the message in faith. They rejected God's message and messengers, therefore they had already rejected God Himself.

The moral of the story is that God has already supplied what we need to be saved. In the OT, things had not been fulfilled, but the faith the OT saints had saved them. In the NT, things have been fulfilled, so many of the OT symbols and types that pointed towards Christ are no longer necessary. What is necessary for salvation is, and always has been, faith that God will keep His promises. This faith is 'proved' by obedience to God. It's not merely lip-service, but a life-changing, life-affirming faith.
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Orion said:
:-? Well, . . . .that was actually a good response, handy. Thanks. :)
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Yes, that WAS a good response, especially the part I quoted. ;-) Thanks Handy. :)
 
Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself...
... Luke 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
 
Okay, so if Moses and the prophets are embraced by a Jewish man, and he finds the love of God and has faith in God's promise, . . . . .yet doesn't recognize Jesus as the Messiah, based on the religion he is in where they are still "waiting for the Messiah to come", . . . . does he go to Heaven?
 
I believe such a man, one who finds the love of God within Moses and the Prophets and one who places his faith in God's promise, will ultimately find Christ. After all, Christ IS the promise of God. If this man is placing his faith in God's promise, God will reveal the truth of Christ to him, just as He has done for many Jews who come to know Jesus.
 
Gabbylittleangel said:
Your questions and theories remind me a lot of him.
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Hmmmm. . . . . . Is that good or bad?!! ;-) :lol:

I like to think out of the box . . . . . .and perhaps cause people to do the same.
 
doesn't recognize Jesus as the Messiah
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He's unconverted.

does he go to Heaven?
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You mean, does he inherit eternal life? Try not to think of heaven as the end to every means. We don't know the exact details of all that stuff. But in Christ lies the only means to submit to the will of God.

"...By those who come near Me I will be treated as holy,
And before all the people I will be honored." -Leviticus 10:3

And a clear warning for not submitting to the will of God.
 
Hugo said:
Try not to think of heaven as the end to every means.
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This is a good subject for discussion as well. I think that sometimes we Christians get hung up on salvation as being the totality of faith. It isn't.
 
I don't think Im understanding the question

Are you saying saved through Moses and the Prophets without Christ or throuh them being directed to Christ?

I guess Im saying,if thats the cass could not be saved via anyone or anything that directed him/her to Christ?
 
Okay, so if Moses and the prophets are embraced by a Jewish man, and he finds the love of God and has faith in God's promise, . . . . .yet doesn't recognize Jesus as the Messiah, based on the religion he is in where they are still "waiting for the Messiah to come", . . . . does he go to Heaven?
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There were not many who had not heard of Jesus in that day. Acts shows a few examples of those who only knew of the Messiah John the Baptist heralded but even then they were strong in faith in the "type" presented to them. Apollos in Acts 18 was actualy said to have been proving Christ with the Scriptures. Simeon (who you can read about in Luke chapter 2) had waited all his life to see the messiah and when he laid eyes on him he knew him to be the Messiah, there was no doubt. The same with John. It seems those who eagerly anticipated the Messiah recogized him when he came, and the others who were curious (like the rich man) came to Jesus wanting eternal life, and though they had kept all the commandments since their youth, they would not give up all to follow Jesus. If you are merely asking a moral question of "what if they just happened to never hear of him" then yes, if they had faith they would have gone to be with the other saints of Old in Paradise until Jesus rose from the dead and took those with him (Matthew 27:52). Romans makes it clear that everyone will have atleast their conscience to judge them, based on what God allowed them to know.

God Bless,

~Josh
 
Actually, cybershark, I was speaking of a person who is living today who is devoutly jewish, and loves God via the Torah, and other writings in Judaism, yet doesn't recognize Jesus as the Messiah.
 
Orion on Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:35 am
Actually, cybershark, I was speaking of a person who is living today who is devoutly jewish, and loves God via the Torah, and other writings in Judaism, yet doesn't recognize Jesus as the Messiah.
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I don’t know about cybershark but I believe it is on the basis of faith that we all will be judged by and the works that we do based on what we believe; OT, NT and right up to today. The faith is believing the Creator and following the laws written by him on every heart. I don’t believe anyone who has been turned off from the Christian version of Jesus who follows the witness of their conscience lead by the Spirit of God will be excluded from an eternal reward because they didn‘t know his proper name. (there are probably more names of God than even what are listed in the Bible, btw )

From the age when we can discern right from wrong, we are judged by our own conscience and with the severity that we judge others who wrong us. We learn obedience by the things that we suffer here on earth that prepare us to be born of God. Live and learn or live and never learn, it’s our choice.

Now, if you have a Jewish person who, knowing in their heart that Jesus is the Messiah and who refuses to accept his sacrifice as sufficient and continues to practice Jewish laws and ordinances as a way to be saved instead of by faith in the message of Christ, (love, forgiveness, mercy, humility, etc. ) then you have someone who is denying the Lord who bought them.
 
Actually, cybershark, I was speaking of a person who is living today who is devoutly jewish, and loves God via the Torah, and other writings in Judaism, yet doesn't recognize Jesus as the Messiah.
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You would have to clarify what you mean by "recognize". Do you mean someone who doesn't acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah (rejects him) - despite the claims he has heard of Jesus, or someone who is completely ignorant of who he is or what he has done and has never even heard of him (the "Amazon" question)?

~Josh
 
Orion said:
Actually, cybershark, I was speaking of a person who is living today who is devoutly jewish, and loves God via the Torah, and other writings in Judaism, yet doesn't recognize Jesus as the Messiah.
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Steps to Salvation

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=26872

No one comes to the Father but through Jesus Christ. Moses and the prophets lead the way to Jesus Christ. If one is on the road, and has not yet reached the destination, then one has not reached the destination. Anticipating the next question...what if someone would have gotten saved, but died before they got there?

God is right all the time. God makes righteous decisions concerning where people spend eternity.

God loves the devoutly Jewish person just like the guy in the jungle that lived a hundred years ago, and the other guy stuck on Gilligans Island with nothing but a copy of the Old Testament.

Oh, Orion, those other two guys were a big concern for Georges.

Happy Ground Hog Day
 
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