Bible Study Study For What Is The Sin Against The Holy Ghost's Finished Sin

[Jake]

Hi Rocky,

Have you looked at these passages?

Jeremiah 31:31-33 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The Hebrew writer quotes this passage in Hebrew 8. What we have, is a better Covenant with better promises :yes

It is true that the old covenant based on the law is no longer binding. We have a new covenant! And it's based on the work of Jesus.

This is why I was saying to read Matthew 5 through 7. There is responsibility with being a disciple.

Jesus himself says,

Matthew 7:24-27 Therefore whosoever hears these sayings of mine, and does them, I will liken him unto a wise man, who built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

So, it's not enough to simply believe in Jesus. We have to believe in his ideas too. But as well, we have to be doers of His will.

The above words are not my words. They are the words of Jesus. Be a doer, not just a hearer.

And no, this is not works based salvation. We are saved by grace through faith. The question then becomes, do you have the faith to do what Jesus tells us to do? It's not always easy and I couldn't imagine what Abraham went through when he offered Isaac.

You and I are in complete agreement! I'm not sure if you realize that or not.

I agree, we must be doers of the word, we are continually abiding in Him. We have responsibilities and are held accountable, we are running the race, it's not a passive walk. It's not one of rules and regulations, however, we walk in the Spirit, doing what Jesus is doing, there is freedom in that.

This should be all directed at Elijah. Elijah likes to keep the OT commandments and feels that if a person does not keep them, then they are hellbound.

 

[Elijah674]

You and I are in complete agreement! I'm not sure if you realize that or not.

I agree, we must be doers of the word, we are continually abiding in Him. We have responsibilities and are held accountable, we are running the race, it's not a passive walk. It's not one of rules and regulations, however, we walk in the Spirit, doing what Jesus is doing, there is freedom in that.

This should be all directed at Elijah. Elijah likes to keep the OT commandments and feels that if a person does not keep them, then they are hellbound.

Was my name mentioned?? And you say you must be doers of the Word???? And then 'toss out' the ONLY Words that God Himself WROTE?? And Attacks at the poster instead of the One who gave His Eternal Commandments? Christ said 'IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS' (not me!) He told [you] whose COMMANDMENTS they are! He told you WHO would be saved [before it is all FINISHED!] Rev. 12:17 The ONES WHO LOVINGLY KEEP [[THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD]] & have the 66 Book 'Testimony of Christ' These are Holy Spirit Inspired, not Elijah's words. Do you realize who it is that you are fighting Against??

And this old post calling the Law of God 'ordinances' has never had the verse posted up as stated from the Exod. 20's Ten Commandments that God/Christ Spoke, Penned in Stone + rewritten in the Born Again Heart BY THE HOLY SPIRIT .. or retracted as a very bad goof!!

Elijah here:
Josh, you say.. (among other things 'about I have a good understanding..')

'However I do not believe that Sabbath observance is binding on NT believers, because it is an old covenant ordinance and it was not reiterated under the new covenant.'

Me again:
Give the Inspiration of the Sabbath of the forth Commandment [ever being called an 'ordinance'] with your good understanding? And what do you do with the Rev. 14:6 N.T. (Covenant) Truth of the Eternal Gospel if you say that it is not Everlasting???

You seem to divide up where there is NO DIVISION? Christ is IN THE MOST HOLY PLACE where there is the Heavenly Ark still having the MERCY SEAT over the Ark, (Rev. 11:18-19 even finds the time of Judgement!) that has the Eternal Covenant INSIDE. And we are told that that is the TESTAMENT. And you say that their forth command of the TESTAMENT is what, abolished?

Ex. 25
[16] And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.
[17] And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof.
[18] And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
[19] And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
[20] And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
[21] And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.

(And again, if one can find even a hint that Moses laws were either written by God or were of these Eternal ten, we need that documentation! Yet, lets see how long the Sabbath was around & how long it was REQUIRED by the Godhead to be such. Creation week is the start for mankind. Abe will be be seen as documentation, if one believes the Godhead. And you can read Isa. 66:22-23 for well, well, past what some falsely 'teach' that the New Covenant obliterates! This is IN THE NEW EARTH! )

Isa. 66
[22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
[23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.


And Abe: Gen.12
[1] Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
[2] And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
....
[5] And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the (as Abe was a Gentile, so was these converts!) souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.

Interesting, and the Lord [said]! God spoke directly to His own before He was asked not to. But do not miss the point, what was it that Abe was teaching that had 'GENTILE SOUL'S WON TO CHRIST'? (No law? NO CONDITIONS??) Hardly! And some again, falsely say, the Eternal Law of God started with the Jew on Mount Sinnai. Then, even explain then what Law Noah preached for 120 years with the same Holy Spirit's STRIVING & with the same results as todays Rev. 17:1-5 ones, to NO EFFECT!?

But years later after Abe's calling, God appeared to Isaac & in verse 5 and [Documented] why He called Abe in the first place! It was because he was OBEDIENT! And notice what laws are listed.

Gen.26
[1] And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar.
[2] And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:
[3] Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
[4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

[5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

And then one reads this posting in part below, which tells us of the poster's thoughts, but not what God HAS COMMANDED. (and I highlighted the word of ordinance) Again, 'i' ask for documentation for where the Godhead even 'hinted' that the 7th Day Sabbath of Theirs that They Blessed & that They Sanctified & then set aside for Holy use was ever called an ordinance? Whatever??

--Elijah

​

 

[stovebolts]

You and I are in complete agreement! I'm not sure if you realize that or not.

I agree, we must be doers of the word, we are continually abiding in Him. We have responsibilities and are held accountable, we are running the race, it's not a passive walk. It's not one of rules and regulations, however, we walk in the Spirit, doing what Jesus is doing, there is freedom in that.

This should be all directed at Elijah. Elijah likes to keep the OT commandments and feels that if a person does not keep them, then they are hellbound.

I knew we were. I just like to talk

As far as our Brother Elijah, I believe he would also be in agreement with just a tad more to add.

When I read Elijah's post above, I think he's coming from the perspective that Jesus is the Word of God. After all, Scripture states that God spoke, and poof, it was created. Scripture also states that all things were created by and for Jesus in Colossians. Thus, when Elijah quotes Jesus as saying, "If you love me, keep my commandments", he is stating that Jesus, being the Word of God who created everything, also spoke the 10 commandments to Moses, and then, with God's own finger wrote them on tablets of stone to which Moses later broke when he came back to find the children dancing and wooping it up around a golden calf.

Along this line, we see the commandments written on stone, to which God previously spoke to the children of God which were to teach the Children how to live, and thus how to bring forth life as attested in Deuteronomy 28, actually condemned the children the first time they were invoked.

I believe that this in part, was why Jesus says what he says in John 3:17. Wheras the law, written on stone condemned a man, Jesus came not to condemn, but rather to save that which was lost.

The law written on stone was cold, just like the stone it was written on. However, the law written on our heart is much warmer because it's written from the true Rock and author of our salvation.

What say ye brother E?

 

[Jake]

I knew we were. I just like to talk

I like to read, so it works out.

As far as our Brother Elijah, I believe he would also be in agreement with just a tad more to add.

When I read Elijah's post above, I think he's coming from the perspective that Jesus is the Word of God. After all, Scripture states that God spoke, and poof, it was created. Scripture also states that all things were created by and for Jesus in Colossians. Thus, when Elijah quotes Jesus as saying, "If you love me, keep my commandments", he is stating that Jesus, being the Word of God who created everything, also spoke the 10 commandments to Moses, and then, with God's own finger wrote them on tablets of stone to which Moses later broke when he came back to find the children dancing and wooping it up around a golden calf.

Along this line, we see the commandments written on stone, to which God previously spoke to the children of God which were to teach the Children how to live, and thus how to bring forth life as attested in Deuteronomy 28, actually condemned the children the first time they were invoked.

I believe that this in part, was why Jesus says what he says in John 3:17. Wheras the law, written on stone condemned a man, Jesus came not to condemn, but rather to save that which was lost.

The law written on stone was cold, just like the stone it was written on. However, the law written on our heart is much warmer because it's written from the true Rock and author of our salvation.

What say ye brother E?

Very well said!

 

[Jake]

Was my name mentioned??

You are part of the conversation, Elijah, it's your thread after all.

 

[Elijah674]

OK Bolts, here is an 'tempting' attorney getting the answer from the one who penned the Eternal Covenant, Christ Himself...

Matt. 23
[35] Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
[36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38] This is [the first] and [great commandment.]

[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[40] On these two commandments [hang all the law and the prophets.]


And where was this [law & the Prophets] found at,'you' two??? (the O.T.) And surely we all know that there were JUST TWO Tables of stone penned by Christ of the O.T.?? (1 Cor. 10:1-4 + Acts 7:38!)

Read them over & see if you can tell what the first four cover & the last six also cover!? It does not take much 'tempting' proof for that lawyer to understand that Christ knew what He was speaking!

It always ceases to amaze me with the ream & reams of paper put forth into trying to complicate who Melchisedec [King of Salem is suppose to be other than that of 'A Priest of God's appointment!? It just seems that the whole Eternal Gospel point of Rev. 14:6 has been missed from Adam on up to the creation of the Jews!

God spoke directly to His own (even Cain in Gen. 4:7) in person up until the Mount Sinai request for Him not to do so. And in between Adam & the forming of Israel's priesthood God still had everything else that was REQUIRED verbally & Conditionally structured!

Even the pre/flood ones ALL had Noah's Eternal Gospel 'Message' of Christ's Righteousness being preached for 120 years with the Striving of the Holy Spirit!

And Abe had SOULS won to Christ in Gen. 12:1-5, and have you ever not wondered how long it took to win over even one soul to Christ?? And these were ALL Gentiles as was Noah, Adam,+ Abe!

And what did God have in place from the 'required' Lamb offering in Gen. 3:15 on [[FOR MANKIND!]]?? He leaves NO ONE IGNORANT on that!

In Gen 26:1-5 we see God appearing to Isaac & in verse 5, and we see DOCUMENTATION of God for why He called Abe in the First Place.... + there was also a 'priest appointed of the most high God' even then! But here is the point that is passed over by this constant Jer. 17:5 side/track of satan's crew!

Gen. 26:5
[5] Because that Abraham [obeyed my voice,] and kept [my charge], [my commandments], [my statutes], and [my laws]. '

And this was long long before any pedigree Jew came on the scene!
This is why God called Abe to begin with as Christ TEL'S Isaac!

(And NO, Christ was not the King per/say of Salem!)

Eccl. 1
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
[10] Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
(nothing was done by chance, DIRECT 'Loving' ORDERS were given by God!)
+
Eccl. 3
[14] I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

(And that is almost the direct Words of warning seen in Rev.'s last few Words!)

[15] That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

(And NOTHING NEW FINDS Heb. 13:20 Eternal Covenant ETERNAL! And Lucifer fell by breaking the First Great Commandment!)

In other words, people search & search for what God has not 'openly' revealed, they spend hours & hours of valuable time while missing out on the Vitals of what God has required from day one on, the giving of His Eternal Heb. 13:20 Covenant on Mount Sinai.

And the forth Commandment started with REMEMBER! Remember from where? Most still do not get it, huh? But for you two, this 4th Commandment was in the FIRST GREAT COMMANDMENT SIDE of the Law of God!

The last six were ones duty to mankind. Read them!

--Elijah

 

[Jake]

Matt. 23
[36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38] This is [the first] and [great commandment.]

[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Cool! You're getting it now, Elijah! You do those two and you're good to go!

 

[Elijah674]

Cool! You're getting it now, Elijah! You do those two and you're good to go!

Hey, stick your name in here:yes 'In other words, [the many Rocky ones] (a pun intended!;)) search & search..' Yet, still the problem is all Jer. 17:5 related! --Elijah

In other words, people search & search for what God has not 'openly' revealed, they spend hours & hours of valuable time while missing out on the Vitals of what God has required from day one on, the giving of His Eternal Heb. 13:20 Covenant on Mount Sinai.

And the forth Commandment started with REMEMBER! Remember from where? Most still do not get it, huh? But for you two, this 4th Commandment was in the FIRST GREAT COMMANDMENT SIDE of the Law of God!

The last six were ones duty to mankind. Read them!

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

OK: Back to the subject of the sin against the Holy Ghost and it's steps of presumption that leads the person to their Ending of the GREAT TRANSGRESSION. Per/Psalms 19:13 prayer of David.

[13] Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

And Christ told us that the Sin Against the Holy Ghost was unforgivable. Matt. 12:31-32. In James 1 we see that there is a start to sin & then an [mature] finish to have the second 'death' consummated. (or this Great Sin FINISHED with NO way back)
[14] But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
[15] Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. (the second death)

Again: David has 'presumptuous sin that is known by us 'Rom. 8:14' & which is continued on as being very dangerous! Think of the MATURITY of old Israel as a nation & as individuals! Matt. 23:38's DESOLATE HOUSE! (Of Christ's FINAL Rejection) Matt. 25:10's CLOSED DOOR! And who took over when the Christ of His House was rejected? satan.

This was their Maturity of the Fatal Sin being reached! Their MATURE FATAL Judgement of [BETWIXT CHRIST or His ex/house!] and the Virgin legal House was chosen, instead of the Christ of His House! It takes both to be Rom. 8:1 'IN' CHRIST! Isa. 5:3! + ibid. 7.

And John 12 lets read together.. But, take note that believing on Christ 'required' following Him completely! (This was their Matt. 25:6 requirement) and what they did indeed choose over Christ, was more important to them. And again, this was FATAL Maturity in Presumption even as they had been directed by Christ Himself.

[42] Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees [[they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:]]

[43] For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

OK: Which is it that you presumptuously choose? Christ! some will 'presumptuously say? Yet, they was NO CONDEMNATION AGAINST HIS PERFECT VIRGIN DOCTRINES! While knowingly realizing that to break one commandment has you guilty of breaking them all? James 2:8-12

And being a Rev. 18:4 Partaker? Just 'realize' what God has told you! Matt. 10:5-6 has this last message taken to Christ's ex/fold. (Eccl. 3:15 Rev. 17:1-5)
Note what Christ tells His disciples in verse 15 of Matt. 10 about His ex/Virgin Fold Final Judgement. And THINK of yourself in rejecting their message??

verse 14-15:
[14] And whosoever shall not receive you, [nor hear your words,] when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

[15] Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Hey! And were these anything like the ones that you see of the S.&G. ones of today?? Yet, the Broadway & Rev. 17:1-5 ones are constantly the ones that most go to today for their Jer. 17:5 'DESIRES!' They look & look until they end up the exact same way as Christ's WORD DOCUMENTS.. [[THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH]]!

Yet, to most of the others, they see only that they are nice to talk with! To study from! Yet, Christ lets you know that when they just will not choose Him in complete surrendered Truth, that they are dangerous to for you to be 'presumptuously around!

Little by little most presumptuously go on against the Rom. 8:14 Leading of the Holy Spirit until there is just NO MORE THAT HE CAN DO FOR THEM. They become 'maturely set' and He has been finally quenched & grieved away so that they just will not hear His still small voice STRIVING WITH THEM.

Who of old Israel followed Christ out into the Acts church? The ex/fold as a whole stayed put, and only a small 'remnant' made up the nucleus of Christ's extended church. (and yes, with the exact same Psalms 77:13 'Sanctuary' doctrines)

And it was the presumptuous sin's that led to the FULL Sin Against The Holy Ghost for these rejected ones from the House of God, and First . And So it was and is today as well! People are daily passing the same mature rejection of the Holy Spirit's leading as was done in the past, until there is just no more that He could do to move them. 1 Peter 4:17

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

------------
The most dangerous teaching of the Bible are from the ones who teach O.S.A.S. And the reason why is that they go by 'only believe' 'feeling' 'emotion' & 'excitement'. Note the correct requirement of Christ in John 3:3-8.
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[3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
[8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

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OK: Lets just say that one has this STARTING Point. This mandatory requirement.

It is then, and only then that we find in Heb. 6:1-5 what takes place. And these are ones who have been Born Again,
for it states positively that they [were made Partakers of the Holy Ghost!]
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Heb. 6
[3] And this will we do, if God permit.
(? Let's be up/front, there are very many who had not Been Born Again that think that they had been! That is what is meant by this verse. This is only in bottom/line, for the true Born Again ones in verse 1-5. Verse 6 proves that OSAS is a flawed teaching, but that will come later. We are considering the change that starts with the True Re/born ones at the start!)

[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

--------
OK: Now Emotion, Excitement, + KNOWING that I have been made a Partaker! SAVED at this point! And real Believing here also! Now what?? OSAS?? Let see further in verse 6?
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[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they [crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh], and [put him to an open shame.]

Right back to verse 4..
[4] Forit is impossible for those [were made partakers of the Holy Ghost] ..... (And now verse 6 again!)

-------

And the devils theology is that of OSAS! And unless satan's 'teachings' (Plural.. for there are many more false teachings in this class!) have convinced you that God's Inspired Word uses rubber bullets, you fall into verse 6
--------


Lets just use one more verse of the Lords Word. That of 2 Peter.

[18] '... those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
[19] While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
---------
And OSAS is the 'false' promise of 'liberty! And when this presumptuous sin is 'finished' it has all ex/saved ones right back again in the bondage of satan! (see James 1:15)
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[20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

[21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

-------
And Holy Commandment? These ones teach 'ONLY BELIEVE' with NO Lovingly Commandment!
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[22] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit [again;] and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


Now: Ask yourself if you were one of these ones, or even thought that you were, what more could Christ convince them that they need??

And Christ says: If you LOVE ME, Keep My Commandments. And these say.. Lord! I am OSAS, and I HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN! Heb. 6 & again, verse 4's last part of the verse! 'I HAVE BEEN MADE A PARTAKER OF THE HOLY GHOST!'

These ones are the Hardest for the Holy Spirit to reach!
For they 'boastingly claim to have it all', and the reason that that was so, is that when they did at one time 'surrender their stubborn will' they were Born Again & Justified at that starting point. But from 8:1's time of Justification, came Rom. 8:14's requirement of being [LED] of the Holy Spirit into [All Truth of full Maturity]!
And this they just would have no part with! Hosea 4:6, Dan. 12:4 & Acts 5:32 final Quenching & Grieving's ENDING!

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

You and I are in complete agreement! I'm not sure if you realize that or not.

I agree, we must be doers of the word, we are continually abiding in Him. We have responsibilities and are held accountable, we are running the race, it's not a passive walk. It's not one of rules and regulations, however, we walk in the Spirit, doing what Jesus is doing, there is freedom in that.

This should be all directed at Elijah. Elijah likes to keep the OT commandments and feels that if a person does not keep them, then they are hellbound.

Hey young'in, go back & re/read Bolts post, somehow it does not sound like you are agreeing even in the least way!?

And you say:
'I agree, we must be doers of the word, we are continually abiding in Him. We have responsibilities and are held accountable, we are running the race, it's not a passive walk. It's not one of rules and regulations, however, we walk in the Spirit, doing what Jesus is doing, there is freedom in that.'

And it sounds as if it is a Rev. 14:6 Eternal Gospel 'LAWLESS' one to me? (and you say 'NO Rules and Regulations'?? Do you not understand that that is how satan's Rebellion in heaven started??)

Just one question for you Rock. And how about posting an answer!:yes We see documented in Rev. 17:1-5's Inspired Word of .. 'THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH' (in the compiler's caps)

OK: And above this is 'your' New Covenant side of the Cross! And you say that you are NO JEW. Are these ones all jews?? How can there be such as all of these ones [OPENLY] seen with NO LAW of condemnation??

And none of these daughters teach anything much alike, nor do their many commentaries agree in any unity. So praytell, What is the INSPIRATIONS STANDARD to call these ones the ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH??? (other than the Eternal Standard of defineing sin) From 1 John 3:4 'Whoever COMMITTETH SIN TRANSGRESSETH [[THE LAW:]] for [[SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW]].' And again.. this on the New Covenant side of the Cross.

And will the question be answered?:seehearspeak If so, Rock, first see Eccl. 3:14 & then remember the last couple verses of Rev!

--Elijah

 

[Jake]

Hey young'in, go back & re/read Bolts post, somehow it does not sound like you are agreeing even in the least way!?

As long as he is following Christ and not a set of rules and regulations, then we agree.

Just one question for you Rock. And how about posting an answer!:yes We see documented in Rev. 17:1-5's Inspired Word of .. 'THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH' (in the compiler's caps)

OK: And above this is 'your' New Covenant side of the Cross! And you say that you are NO JEW. Are these ones all jews?? How can there be such as all of these ones [OPENLY] seen with NO LAW of condemnation??

And none of these daughters teach anything much alike, nor do their many commentaries agree in any unity. So praytell, What is the INSPIRATIONS STANDARD to call these ones the ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH??? (other than the Eternal Standard of defineing sin) From 1 John 3:4 'Whoever COMMITTETH SIN TRANSGRESSETH [[THE LAW:]] for [[SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW]].' And again.. this on the New Covenant side of the Cross.

And will the question be answered?:seehearspeak If so, Rock, first see Eccl. 3:14 & then remember the last couple verses of Rev!

--Elijah

We are Israel, the Church, the Body of Christ.

Now you are discussing sin, and the Bible tells us we do not have to sin, IF we remain in Christ, we will not be tempted beyond what we can handle and God gives us a way out.

Just walk in the Spirit, follow Him, Elijah and you won't have to be so concerned about sinning (or other people sinning).

 

[Elijah674]

Originally Posted by Elijah674
Just one question for you Rock. And how about posting an answer!:yes We see documented in Rev. 17:1-5's Inspired Word of .. 'THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH' (in the compiler's caps)

OK: And above this is 'your' New Covenant side of the Cross! And you say that you are NO JEW. Are these ones all jews?? How can there be such as all of these ones [OPENLY] seen with NO LAW of condemnation??

And none of these daughters teach anything much alike, nor do their many commentaries agree in any unity. So praytell, What is the INSPIRATIONS STANDARD to call these ones the ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH??? (other than the Eternal Standard of defineing sin) From 1 John 3:4 'Whoever COMMITTETH SIN TRANSGRESSETH [[THE LAW:]] for [[SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW]].' And again.. this on the New Covenant side of the Cross.

And will the question be answered?:seehearspeak If so, Rock, first see Eccl. 3:14 & then remember the last couple verses of Rev!

--Elijah

Rocks answers the question:



We are Israel, the Church, the Body of Christ.

Now you are discussing sin, and the Bible tells us we do not have to sin, IF we remain in Christ, we will not be tempted beyond what we can handle and God gives us a way out.

Just walk in the Spirit, follow Him, Elijah and you won't have to be so concerned about sinning (or other people sinning).

About what was expected Lord! :seehearspeak That was the answer to my question!?? Now is mentions sin after telling us that we are not having any law?? And the other post mentioned responsibility? Whatever, we will see? Matt. 24:21

--Elijah

 

[Jake]

Originally Posted by Elijah674
Just one question for you Rock. And how about posting an answer!:yes We see documented in Rev. 17:1-5's Inspired Word of .. 'THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH' (in the compiler's caps)

OK: And above this is 'your' New Covenant side of the Cross! And you say that you are NO JEW. Are these ones all jews?? How can there be such as all of these ones [OPENLY] seen with NO LAW of condemnation??

And none of these daughters teach anything much alike, nor do their many commentaries agree in any unity. So praytell, What is the INSPIRATIONS STANDARD to call these ones the ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH??? (other than the Eternal Standard of defineing sin) From 1 John 3:4 'Whoever COMMITTETH SIN TRANSGRESSETH [[THE LAW:]] for [[SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW]].' And again.. this on the New Covenant side of the Cross.

And will the question be answered?:seehearspeak If so, Rock, first see Eccl. 3:14 & then remember the last couple verses of Rev!

--Elijah

Rocks answers the question:



We are Israel, the Church, the Body of Christ.

Now you are discussing sin, and the Bible tells us we do not have to sin, IF we remain in Christ, we will not be tempted beyond what we can handle and God gives us a way out.

Just walk in the Spirit, follow Him, Elijah and you won't have to be so concerned about sinning (or other people sinning).

About what was expected Lord! :seehearspeak That was the answer to my question!?? Now is mentions sin after telling us that we are not having any law?? And the other post mentioned responsibility? Whatever, we will see? Matt. 24:21

--Elijah

I thought we already discussed obedience, Elijah!

A sin is an act not right in God's eyes, a sin for one person, might not be sin for another, if we remain in Him, He tells us what to do. It's simple, why are you making it so difficult?

 

[Elijah674]

--The Sin Against The Holy Ghost--
--By Elijah

OK: The New Man! Some 'falsely teach' that Lucifer who was 'CREATED PERFECT' & Adam who is stated as being created 'VERY GOOD' could not fall from this Perfection that they once had!? They teach in bottom/line that God created FLAWED sinful material! (Read the Eccl. 3:14 verse & Rev.'s last couple of verses of warning on that satanic false teaching!)

There is just NO way to find King Saul than as the [GODHEAD] Document in 1 Sam. 10... [Born Again + New Man with the Born Again Heart + Mind!]

[6] And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned [into another man].
....
[9] And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him [another heart:] and all those signs came to pass that day.

Freedom to make Decisions were given all of God's Creation! Made [IN THEIR IMAGE!] With a Brain of Choice! And as David was Inspired to pen in Psalms 19:13, it is in these freedom of choices that one can go from being Justified (Rom. 8:1) to not being (Rom. 8:14) that of being Led of the Holy Ghost. And then into full mature rejection, that has the end result of the Sin Against The Holy Ghost! And this presumption in the Psalms 19 verse 13 has the Born Again Christian [Knowing full well what they have done, and it was going against this LEADING!]

Here we will follow on with 'just a few' of the presumptuous sins of the one time Born Again King Saul into his many presumptuous sins that finds him unmovable & rejected by God. (James 1:15's Finish) And as Cain in Gen. 4:7, he then had a new master & a new 'desire' who was satan! But first lets read where God REMOVES THE HOLY SPIRIT FROM KING SAUL!

1 Sam. 16
[12] And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to. And the LORD said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he.
[13] Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Raman.
[14] But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

So let use a couple of Many Known recorded presumptuous sins by King Saul to find this above END Result. Sure King Saul was jealous of David. But lets also see what seems to be the most offensive to God 'other than jealous hate' & what King Saul at long last did?
1Sam.15

[1] Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD.
[2] Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
[3] Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
....
(Who today would keep that 'Direct' command of God? )


[8] And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.
[9] But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.
....

[13] And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed be thou of the LORD: I have performed the commandment of the LORD.

[14] And Samuel said, What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?
[15] And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed.

[16] Then Samuel said unto Saul, Stay, and I will tell thee what the LORD hath said to me this night. And he said unto him, Say on.
[17] And Samuel said, When thou wast little in thine own sight, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the LORD anointed thee king over Israel?
[18] And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.
[19] Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the LORD, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the LORD?

[20] And Saul said unto Samuel, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the LORD, and have gone the way which the LORD sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites.
[21] But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God in Gilgal.
[22] And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
[23] For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. ...'

Saul just kept going from worse to far the worse in presumptous known sinning. Finally he reached the point of NO Return. Note in 1 Sam. 28

 

[Elijah674]

OK: Fact, from becoming the Born Again New Man, right back to being the devils disciple! It happened throughout the Bible. (Gen. 4:7 first one!) And 'Returning to the Vomit' Peter penned! And Heb. 6:6 finds these ones the worst offenders, for they learned well [how] to work their devils counterfiets! (2 Cor. 4:2) Yet, you can be sure that it ALL STARTED BY PRESUMPTION & little by little & not a [one time] quick fall from Grace! Such as King Saul gradual finish!
See Luke 12:47-48

Again:
Saul just kept going from worse to far the worse in presumptous known sinning. Finally he reached the point of NO Return. Note in 1 Sam. 28

[3] Now Samuel was dead, ...
[5] And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled.
[6] And when Saul inquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
[7] Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

[8] And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
[9] And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
[10] And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.

[11] Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
[12] And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

[13] And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
[14] And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

[15] And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

[16] Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
[17] And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
[18] Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.

[19] Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

One thing for sure is known here, and that is that satan had full control of the ones who sined the Sin Against The Holy Ghost! And another is that satan does speak through these ones of his even in spiritualism. To which phase of time we are again entering! And most of today already teach that God lied & satan told the truth in Gen. 3. And note this passage again that is to be repeated (Eccl. 3:15) just before Christ comes again.. 1 Sam. 15

[22] And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
[23] For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.

And have you ever seen such REBELLION & 'Presumptuous Stubbornness as these prophesied ones of Rev. 17:1-5 Broadway of Matt. 7 ones?????
And in closing, note what it is to again be found that is Presumptuously seen in Thess. to deceive! Directly against Gen. 3 Truth from God!

2 Thess. 2

[7] For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
[10] And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
[11] And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
[12] That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

And just again! Of these Eternally lost ones of today, most all had a Promising START of Matt. 7:22 before open Presumption took over. Just think!

[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?


--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

As with King Saul's example, it is the exact same with all Born Again ones. As with the pre/flood ones the Holy Spirit was Striving to get 'INTO' these lost souls, and with these ones of Rev. 17:1-5 & Matt. 7 Broadwayones.. of which many did indeed have the Born Again starting point to 'fall from'.

(None of these ones could do all of this documentation as carnal! Isa. 59:1-2 & John 9:31)

Christ states:
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Then we see the process of the saved ones growth to be defined one way or the other.

Matt. 12
[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
[32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Psalms 19
[13] Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

OK: God defines what sin is. There was NO sin of either kind that could be found without the Godheads Eternal 10 Commandment 'Royal' Law being Broken! And jot down in your mind that these verses are from what some call the new covenant side of the cross. while really being the Eternal Word of GOD! John 1:13-14 & Rev. 14:6.

1 John
[3] And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
[4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Yes, open 'known' presumption is not keeping oneself pure! It is balking against the Holy Spirits 'Leading'. (Rom. 8:14) And He attempts to lead all Born Again ones!
See Hosea 4:6 & Dan. 12:4 for accepting or rejecting the Holy Spirit, + the spewed out of Rev. 3:16 ones along with Rev. 2:5's Warning of the whole Candlestick's REMOVAL!

James 1 finds...
[14] But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
[15] Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

First, all are tempted! That is not sin. When it is conceived, then it is sin. OK: This sin still is not the sin that is against the Holy Ghost at this starting point, He tries to LEAD you from this sin! When one just will not be Led, it is known presumption and when this sin is maturely finished it brings forth the sin of eternal death, which is the mature SIN AGAINST THE HOLY GHOST.

In 1 John 5 we find this start & finish even more clearly defined.

[16] If any man see [his brother] sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

[17] All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

[18] We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

OK: Sin is sin. It has a start & it has a finish one way or the other. When one that is Born Again it is these ones only that [are seen above] that [[can]] be Led if they mature on in following the Holy Spirits Leading.

If so, they use Christ's Given Provisions to keep themselves. Phil. 4:13 + Christ's SUPPLIED GRACE. Which is Still Eternal Covenant [CONDITIONAL], and not [FORCED]! And there is No saved person who will stay saved that matures into the final presumption of this 'SIN UNTO DEATH'.

--Elijah

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Brother E,

Sorry it's taken so long for me to get back. Wow, what a week! Anyway, I've only been able to really read post 46, and yes, I agree with you!

Read them over & see if you can tell what the first four cover & the last six also cover!? It does not take much 'tempting' proof for that lawyer to understand that Christ knew what He was speaking!

It's very, very interesting because really, they are not split up by groupings of 4 and 6. Actually, if you look smack dab in the middle, it's to commandment to honor your mother and father. Take a moment E, and you will see that this commandment is the bridge between honoring God, and honoring your neighbor. This commandment was not placed as the bridge by hapenstance because in reality E, how we honor our parents is simply a reflection on how we honor God, especially in this day where divorce is so prevalent as is neglect. And mind you, Moses also gave certificates of divorce and scripture is true that there is nothing new under the sun!

The parents have a responsibility laid out in their shema, which starts in Deut 6:4 and leads on. But what responsibility does the commandment give but that the parents would teach their children God's laws, and that they would talk to their children about God when they got up, laid down or were walking down the road. Honestly, when your Dad's a drunk, it's pretty hard to honor him, but that does not mean we cannot honor the Title of Father.

So yes Elijah, if I read you right, I agree that it is very important to live the way God tells us to live. While we may disagree on the specifics on how the commandments are lived out (gyrating with ideologies), I think that it's most important to respect how others are struggling with living them out. After all, scripture states that to some, they view one day above the rest, while others view every day as special. But what God looks at, is that what we do, we do it unto the Lord. Agreed?

Again, I am talking about works that accompany salvation, and in that light, I think I've got a better understanding of what James said when he wrote, "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling." because the commandments of Jesus in Matthew 5 - 7 in a way, are tougher than what Moses penned (We are called to be that neighbor i.e. Good Samaratin). If we look at the parable of the builder from Matthew 7, we'll see a similar parable in Luke. Ironically, the parable tells us that the foundation has to be deep, which implies some pretty serious digging. It's not easy, but it's the work that must be done if we want a solid foundation.

I know I'm rambling... so sorry. But I do believe that it IS possible to believe in Jesus, but not believe in his ideas / commandments. It's not simply enough to know God's commandments, we have to live them out, which means there is a time to stop gyrating with producing the correct answer, and start living out the life God has in mind for us.

It reminds me of the parable of the two sons. The Father asked his first son to do something, his son agreed, but never did it. The second son refused to do what his father asked, but later did it.

Both sons honored their Father, and both sons disrespected their Father. Look at that middle commandment we were talking about, and you'll see not only the bridge I was talking about, but the mirror also.

Let me know if you see this.

Jeff

 

[stovebolts]

As long as he is following Christ and not a set of rules and regulations, then we agree.

Hey Rockie,
I've been trying to follow the way of Christ off and on all my life. It started with following him into the baptismal waters when I was 13, and then trying not to tarnish my new garment

My relationship with Christ started when I was 13 and locked up. Yeah, I was a rebellious kid for sure. Hey, I just liked to drive cars lol... was it really my fault people leave their keys in their cars? :D

Umm.. yeah.. back to topic

I had to make some pretty drastic changes in my life based on what Jesus taught in Matthew 5 - 7. And I read Proverbs many times. Living out the scriptures the best I understood at the time, and it saved my life... literally. My step brother wasn't as lucky. He never changed the way he lived, and just a few months ago I helped officiate his funeral. I guess what I'm saying Rockie, is that it has been my experience that how we live is very important, and it matters to God.

Scripture says somewhere in John's writings (1 john?) that if we say we are without sin, then we are liars. But he also says that if we confess our sins, he is just to forgive them. Thus, our garments remain clean. BTW, a garment is an easy way to explain the soul.

With the new covenant in Christ, the law has not went away, but rather, it is now written in our hearts, because as born again Christians living the resurrected life, we have Christ in our hearts. We are not only called to love our neighbor as our self, but we are challenged to be the neighbor.

Each of us are at a different stage in our Christian walk, but we also have different talents and gifts. But together, united in Christ, we form the visible body of Christ.

Love ya all!

Jeff

 

[Elijah674]

Hi Brother E,

Sorry it's taken so long for me to get back. Wow, what a week! Anyway, I've only been able to really read post 46, and yes, I agree with you!

It's very, very interesting because really, they are not split up by groupings of 4 and 6. Actually, if you look smack dab in the middle, it's to commandment to honor your mother and father. Take a moment E, and you will see that this commandment is the bridge between honoring God, and honoring your neighbor. This commandment was not placed as the bridge by hapenstance because in reality E, how we honor our parents is simply a reflection on how we honor God, especially in this day where divorce is so prevalent as is neglect. And mind you, Moses also gave certificates of divorce and scripture is true that there is nothing new under the sun!

The parents have a responsibility laid out in their shema, which starts in Deut 6:4 and leads on. But what responsibility does the commandment give but that the parents would teach their children God's laws, and that they would talk to their children about God when they got up, laid down or were walking down the road. Honestly, when your Dad's a drunk, it's pretty hard to honor him, but that does not mean we cannot honor the Title of Father.

So yes Elijah, if I read you right, I agree that it is very important to live the way God tells us to live. While we may disagree on the specifics on how the commandments are lived out (gyrating with ideologies), I think that it's most important to respect how others are struggling with living them out. After all, scripture states that to some, they view one day above the rest, while others view every day as special. But what God looks at, is that what we do, we do it unto the Lord. Agreed?

Again, I am talking about works that accompany salvation, and in that light, I think I've got a better understanding of what James said when he wrote, "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling." because the commandments of Jesus in Matthew 5 - 7 in a way, are tougher than what Moses penned (We are called to be that neighbor i.e. Good Samaratin). If we look at the parable of the builder from Matthew 7, we'll see a similar parable in Luke. Ironically, the parable tells us that the foundation has to be deep, which implies some pretty serious digging. It's not easy, but it's the work that must be done if we want a solid foundation.

I know I'm rambling... so sorry. But I do believe that it IS possible to believe in Jesus, but not believe in his ideas / commandments. It's not simply enough to know God's commandments, we have to live them out, which means there is a time to stop gyrating with producing the correct answer, and start living out the life God has in mind for us.

It reminds me of the parable of the two sons. The Father asked his first son to do something, his son agreed, but never did it. The second son refused to do what his father asked, but later did it.

Both sons honored their Father, and both sons disrespected their Father. Look at that middle commandment we were talking about, and you'll see not only the bridge I was talking about, but the mirror also.

Let me know if you see this.

Jeff