Stupid Question

[Cheyenne K]

How can freewill and predestination both exist?
I have some clue...

God already knows what is going to happen and where we will end up. That's part of predestination.
However, we have the free will to decide for ourselves. Our free will is what is and using it, what is to come will come.
God has those He has chosen and I believe that these are the people who He knows He can save without destroying their free will or reveal Himself to them without destroying their lives with the knowledge He exists, for not all people will react well the God.

 

[Oats]

How can freewill and predestination both exist?
I have some clue...

God already knows what is going to happen and where we will end up. That's part of predestination.
However, we have the free will to decide for ourselves. Our free will is what is and using it, what is to come will come.
God has those He has chosen and I believe that these are the people who He knows He can save without destroying their free will or reveal Himself to them without destroying their lives with the knowledge He exists, for not all people will react well the God.

Thanks...this forum has been a big help to me

 

[Teach]

God already knows what is going to happen and where we will end up. That's part of predestination.
However, we have the free will to decide for ourselves. Our free will is what is and using it, what is to come will come.
God has those He has chosen and I believe that these are the people who He knows He can save without destroying their free will or reveal Himself to them without destroying their lives with the knowledge He exists, for not all people will react well the God.

Hi Cheyenne:
Can you clarify something for me please? When exactly do you figure God knew where we would end up? Would you say at the very moment of conception? or When He began creating the universe? or maybe prior to that?

 

[Cheyenne K]

God already knows what is going to happen and where we will end up. That's part of predestination.
However, we have the free will to decide for ourselves. Our free will is what is and using it, what is to come will come.
God has those He has chosen and I believe that these are the people who He knows He can save without destroying their free will or reveal Himself to them without destroying their lives with the knowledge He exists, for not all people will react well the God.

Hi Cheyenne:
Can you clarify something for me please? When exactly do you figure God knew where we would end up? Would you say at the very moment of conception? or When He began creating the universe? or maybe prior to that?

Personally, I think that He has always known. Knowing all, it would be a contradiction to say that for a time He did not know of what would happen to a person, even if only for a time. Also, I feel that Jeremiah 1:5 also gives an indication to this:

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
- Jeremiah 1:5

 

[HisSheep]

Right on, Cheyenne K!

Here’s a few more:

Matt 13:35 I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Matt 25:34 Come you blessed of my father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also whom you gave me may be with me where I am... for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 18:20 He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy without blame before Him in love

Rev 13:8 You were not redeemed with corruptible things...but with the precious blood of Messiah...who was foreordained before the foundation of the world. I recommend it.

Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw...will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. Those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

These from an article about the seven references in the N.T. of things occurring "before the foundation of the world". The artlcle is called "Before the Foundation of the World" from Revive Israel Ministries. It’s short, and I recommend it.

In the O.T. there are many more “sovereignty†references including these

Isaiah 14:

24 The LORD Almighty has sworn,
"Surely, as I have planned, so it will be,
and as I have purposed, so it will stand.
25 I will crush the Assyrian in my land;
on my mountains I will trample him down.
His yoke will be taken from my people,
and his burden removed from their shoulders."
26 This is the plan determined for the whole world;
this is the hand stretched out over all nations.
27 For the LORD Almighty has purposed, and who can thwart him?
His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?

Isaiah 46:
10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.
11 From the east I summon a bird of prey;
from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that will I bring about;
what I have planned, that will I do.

Job 42
2 "I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.

Isaiah 55:
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

God is absolutely in full control. We can either deny this fact or take comfort in it.
I am using my free will to take comfort in it. It is very good.

-HisSheep

 

[Teach]

God is absolutely in full control. We can either deny this fact or take comfort in it.
I am using my free will to take comfort in it. It is very good.
-HisSheep

It's difficult to carry on a conversation with you because you always go of topic. In my post to Cheyenne I'm discussing God's knowledge or foreknowledge of things, to which he/she kindly replied what he/she believed, and you ramble off a bunch verses and in conclusion state that God is Sovereign. Like who is talking about Sovereignty? The subject at hand is Knowledge and more specificaly free will.
In my previously post I was talking about free will and you replied that we were all sinners. We were not talking about or even questioning whether we were sinners or not.

It's frustrating when you can't keep on track. Anyway I've found that most Calvanist are practically brainwashed when it comes to this subject there not very open to new thought. And I say that because I was in your shoes at one time. But somebody sat me down and forced to really think on the issue besides showing me verse that proved otherwise.

Having been there I don't get to upset, just frustrated.

Cheers,

 

[Teach]

[quote="Cheyenne K":2eu1bzco]
God already knows what is going to happen and where we will end up. That's part of predestination.
However, we have the free will to decide for ourselves. Our free will is what is and using it, what is to come will come.
God has those He has chosen and I believe that these are the people who He knows He can save without destroying their free will or reveal Himself to them without destroying their lives with the knowledge He exists, for not all people will react well the God.

Hi Cheyenne:
Can you clarify something for me please? When exactly do you figure God knew where we would end up? Would you say at the very moment of conception? or When He began creating the universe? or maybe prior to that?

Personally, I think that He has always known. Knowing all, it would be a contradiction to say that for a time He did not know of what would happen to a person, even if only for a time. Also, I feel that Jeremiah 1:5 also gives an indication to this:[/quote:2eu1bzco]

The reason I asked you that is because I want to try to get you to stop and rethink what you know or believe at the moment. There’s nothing wrong in questioning our theology or trying to get a clear understanding of these complicated issues. The Thessalonians surely tested scripture and God Himself says “Come let us reason together...â€

So let me ask you this: What is the sum total of everything God knows? For instance, does God know every atom that’s floating around the universe? Does He know every part of our beings, even our thoughts? What about God’s own thoughts? Does He know them? Now if you answered yes to all of these, I applaud you because you are right.

Now, can you think of anything else that God knows beyond, the matter that He has created, the thoughts in my mind and His own thoughts that are formulated as He exists?

If you can’t think of anything else then I’ll define Omniscience as “Knowing Everything That Is Knowableâ€. All His creation is knowable, all His thoughts are knowable, all our thoughts are knowable. So would you agree with me that something that does not exist, because God did not create it, think it or we think it, is therefore not knowable. And if it is not knowable, then to say that God doesn’t know the unknowable, does not make Him any less Omniscient than what He is.

I’ll leave you with that to think about and then I’ll continue on in another post.
GTG
Ciao! 4 now.

 

[Cheyenne K]

If you can’t think of anything else then I’ll define Omniscience as “Knowing Everything That Is Knowableâ€. All His creation is knowable, all His thoughts are knowable, all our thoughts are knowable. So would you agree with me that something that does not exist, because God did not create it, think it or we think it, is therefore not knowable. And if it is not knowable, then to say that God doesn’t know the unknowable, does not make Him any less Omniscient than what He is.

This is an interesting concept to consider. If you don't mind, I'm going to think about this and study for a bit more before I answer it, so there may be some time yet. After reading it a second time, I do see your point and do think that there may be truth to it, though I still have yet to make a solid decision.

 

[Teach]

This is an interesting concept to consider. If you don't mind, I'm going to think about this and study for a bit more before I answer it, so there may be some time yet. After reading it a second time, I do see your point and do think that there may be truth to it, though I still have yet to make a solid decision.

I would like you to realize one thing. If anything, I am not trying to get you to come over to the dark side, because, trust me, a lot of people would flip out at what I believe. What I would like is that after our discussion you would be able to walk away with at least two different views, both very plausible. Then you choose what you want to believe.

Having said that I would like you to have a look at this verse.
Jeremiah (32:35) "And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin."
Here we clearly have a situation where God is saying that the thought never entered His mind that the Israelites would commit such an abomination as to throw their own children in the fires of Molech.
Now this is a verse that gets most Christians bent out of shape because if taken at face value, in other words, literally as spoken , we have an instance where God did not foresee this happening. The majority of Christians sweep this one under the rug because they find it too tedious to investigate. Then there are those who do not want to investigate for fear of possibly being wrong in their belief thus putting them outside of the majority, and there’s no safety or comfort in that. There’s also those who aren’t afraid of the truth and will investigate no matter what.

Now consider one father or one mother, with their newborn baby, on the threshold of the fires of Molech. Every bone and nerve in their body is saying not to throw the child in. It is a moment of split decision. Will they or will they not. It is an unknowable action or decision until they finally toss the child in. There’s a millisecond of time when the father breaks and decides to go along with the sacrifice. But until that millisecond decision is actually made or exercised, it does not exist for God to know. Does that diminish God? Not at all, it was unknowable until it happened.

I GTG but I’ll leave you with another verse.
Gen. (22:12) “And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.â€
Any comments? Talk to you later.

 

[LaMont Cranston]

When it comes to knowing all of the attributes of God, including such things as omniscience, we can know as much as we know, but I have no reason to believe that we will ever know everything about God. That's just a description of the way that life works.

HisSheep has said that he's one of the Calvinists who is a member of this forum, and if that's what works for him, that's just fine. He is entitled to his set of beliefs.

However, the Calvinist version of what God is about and the teachings of Jesus is hardly the only version of what is available to those of us who believe in God and love Jesus. I find it impossible to reconcile the idea that God created everything, including us, to suffer and live miserable lives, but we are still supposed to love God, ourselves and others.

What works for me is that God created everything, including us, to live the most loving and glorious existences that we possibly can, and that is also exactly what Jesus was talking about. Jesus came to elevate our lives, and, for many people on this planet, he did exactly that. What's also true is that the impact that he has had is still a work in progress.

 

[HisSheep]

God is absolutely in full control. We can either deny this fact or take comfort in it.
I am using my free will to take comfort in it. It is very good.
-HisSheep

It's difficult to carry on a conversation with you because you always go of topic.

I do…? ...No I don’t… ever...

In my post to Cheyenne I'm discussing God's knowledge or foreknowledge of things, to which he/she kindly replied what he/she believed, and you ramble off a bunch verses and in conclusion state that God is Sovereign. Like who is talking about Sovereignty? The subject at hand is Knowledge and more specificaly free will.

Teach,

I think my post was right on track, and here’s why. The conversation had naturally moved into the area of foreknowledge. I didn’t drive it there. Nor do I think foreknowledge is “off topic†in a free will discussion anyway. I added a bunch of verses to demonstrate God’s foreknowledge. I also extended the conversation to include His Purpose. God’s foreknowledge is directly linked to His having purposed things according to His pleasure. All of these things, God’s will, purpose, and foreknowledge are so tightly related to predestination, that they cannot be separated from a discussion of our free will and it’s limitations. Any argument that challenges God’s complete foreknowledge or His perfect fulfillment of all that He desires and has planned, is an attempt to deny His sovereignty. I will always defend His sovereignty.

So I don’t think I was at all of topic.

In my previously post I was talking about free will and you replied that we were all sinners. We were not talking about or even questioning whether we were sinners or not.

Again, these things (the sinful nature and free-will) are related. Christianity holds that all unregenerate men are wholly sinful and are incapable of any good work – i.e. any work that is pleasing to God or will merit favor in His sight. Isaiah says, “All our works are but dirty ragsâ€. In Romans, Paul says “there is no one who does good, no one who seeks Godâ€.

From this, I draw the conclusion that man does not initiate His own salvation by exercising his will to choose God. I believe that God initiates salvation by granting a man faith, and pouring the Holy Spirit into Him. Only then is the man’s will inclined to do Good. So, no man does good (including choosing God) until acted upon by God.

It's frustrating when you can't keep on track. Anyway I've found that most Calvanist are practically brainwashed when it comes to this subject there not very open to new thought.

Again, I’m right on track, Teach.

My position may look like “close mindedness†to you, but to me it is Biblical truth. I don't need "new thought"; I have old scripture...

And I say that because I was in your shoes at one time. But somebody sat me down and forced to really think on the issue besides showing me verse that proved otherwise.

I resent your assumption that I haven’t really though about my beliefs.

Speaking of staying on topic...What did you mention in your last post that related to the thread topic; that might help me to think it through? All you’ve done is critique my post. This is a thread about freewill and how it coexists with predestination.

Having been there I don't get to upset, just frustrated.

It’s very nice of you to be so patient with me.

-HisSheep

 

[HisSheep]

Having said that I would like you to have a look at this verse.
Jeremiah (32:35) "And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin."
Here we clearly have a situation where God is saying that the thought never entered His mind that the Israelites would commit such an abomination as to throw their own children in the fires of Molech.
Now this is a verse that gets most Christians bent out of shape because if taken at face value, in other words, literally as spoken , we have an instance where God did not foresee this happening. Any comments? Talk to you later.

If you’re not too ticked at me, I’d like to suggest that this does not at all imply that God didn’t foresee the act. Here is how the New Living Translation has the verse:

Jeremiah 32:35
They have built pagan shrines to Baal in the valley of Ben-Hinnom, and there they sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing. What an incredible evil, causing Judah to sin so greatly!

I think this is how the verse should be taken. It’s not that God didn’t foreknow the sin – it is that God never commanded, or thought of commanding the sin. This verse, in any of the translations, can (and should) be taken this way…

It sounds to me as if you are trying to trying to “spread the word†that God doesn’t have perfect foreknowledge. Why would you do such a thing?

Here is a bit about Genesis 22:12 which you cited… Again, you seem bent on denying God’s foreknowledge, by the way…

Here is what Wesley had to say about it – I agree with him. Not that He’s the “end all be allâ€, but he certainly thought about it a fair amount:

22:12 Lay not thine hand upon the lad - God's time to help his people is, when they are brought to the greatest extremity: the more eminent the danger is, and the nearer to be put in execution, the more wonderful and the more welcome is the deliverance. Now know I that thou fearest God - God knew it before, but now Abraham had given a memorable evidence of it. He need do no more, what he had done was sufficient to prove the religious regard he had to God and his authority. The best evidence of our fearing God is our being willing to honour him with that which is dearest to us, and to part with all to him, or for him.

The remainder of this post is culled from a PM I sent to another user a few days back:

Lately, I have been thinking about all of the sacrifices (personal sacrifices, not animal…) made by the many Biblical characters. Take Abraham, for example. Why was he asked to sacrifice his son? Surely, God already knew he was a faithful man. So, I have concluded that God did not ask for this astounding sacrifice so that Abraham might prove his faith to God. Instead, I think God wanted to demonstrate to Abraham how effective the faith was that God had given him.

This is in keeping with my belief that faith is a gift. We are not at all responsible for it’s presence within us. God gives His people faith to do predetermined works:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

We do not gain favor with God by adhering to His law – we adhere to His law because we have favor with God.

1 John 2:5
But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:

-HisSheep

 

[Cheyenne K]

I would like you to realize one thing. If anything, I am not trying to get you to come over to the dark side, because, trust me, a lot of people would flip out at what I believe. What I would like is that after our discussion you would be able to walk away with at least two different views, both very plausible. Then you choose what you want to believe.

I understand. I replied as I did because I really did think it was an interesting idea to consider.

Having said that I would like you to have a look at this verse.
Jeremiah (32:35) "And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin."
Here we clearly have a situation where God is saying that the thought never entered His mind that the Israelites would commit such an abomination as to throw their own children in the fires of Molech.
Now this is a verse that gets most Christians bent out of shape because if taken at face value, in other words, literally as spoken , we have an instance where God did not foresee this happening. The majority of Christians sweep this one under the rug because they find it too tedious to investigate. Then there are those who do not want to investigate for fear of possibly being wrong in their belief thus putting them outside of the majority, and there’s no safety or comfort in that. There’s also those who aren’t afraid of the truth and will investigate no matter what.

I’ll admit, this one I have no explanation for. Perhaps it was meant some other way, but I’m not sure.
In an case, what I think is not going to completely determine what is.

Now consider one father or one mother, with their newborn baby, on the threshold of the fires of Molech. Every bone and nerve in their body is saying not to throw the child in. It is a moment of split decision. Will they or will they not. It is an unknowable action or decision until they finally toss the child in. There’s a millisecond of time when the father breaks and decides to go along with the sacrifice. But until that millisecond decision is actually made or exercised, it does not exist for God to know. Does that diminish God? Not at all, it was unknowable until it happened.

This, to me, seems to conflict any prophecy in the Bible. For instance, what of Isaiah? What of Revelation? How would God give any of these divine messages of the future if He Himself could not foresee them? It doesn’t seem make much sense there.

I GTG but I’ll leave you with another verse.
Gen. (22:12) “And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.â€
Any comments? Talk to you later.

I think in this God just means that He can see that he fears God, not necessarily that God couldn’t see it before, but it was simply made clearer (and better in that) at the point God was speaking. That the faith of who He was speaking to was made more obvious and strong and visible on the outside.

 

[Barbarian]

Bottom line? God is just. So He would not punish you for something you had no control over. If He created you to reject Him, then punishing you would be monstrously unjust. Free will gives you one thing in your salvation; the right to accept it, or to reject it.

All men are given this and all of us are morally responsible for our decision, because God gives that to us.

Does God know who will do it? That comes with omnipotence. But He says that He's unwilling that any be lost. So He doesn't make people for eternal punishment.

 

[Teach]

Bottom line? God is just. So He would not punish you for something you had no control over. If He created you to reject Him, then punishing you would be monstrously unjust. Free will gives you one thing in your salvation; the right to accept it, or to reject it.

All men are given this and all of us are morally responsible for our decision, because God gives that to us.

Does God know who will do it? That comes with omnipotence. But He says that He's unwilling that any be lost. So He doesn't make people for eternal punishment.

Yet another post that makes wonderful sense and proves that we do actually have Free Will.
Thank You. :yes

 

[Teach]

If you’re not too ticked at me, I’d like to suggest that this does not at all imply that God didn’t foresee the act. Here is how the New Living Translation has the verse:
Jeremiah 32:35
They have built pagan shrines to Baal in the valley of Ben-Hinnom, and there they sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing. What an incredible evil, causing Judah to sin so greatly!

I think this is how the verse should be taken. It’s not that God didn’t foreknow the sin – it is that God never commanded, or thought of commanding the sin. This verse, in any of the translations, can (and should) be taken this way...-HisSheep

And this is what so ticks me off. You'll go to great length of finding one Translation, out 15 or more, to support that thought, knowing full well that the words "to command" have to be added to convey that thought, words that are not in the original text. The NLT adds the words, adds a period thus ending the sentence before its subject and then begins a new one out of context.

But that's fine with you because it fits into your theology and thus squelches the doubt that maybe there is something to what I'm saying. May be you're missing something here. No, heaven forbid, we must find a translation that supports our cause no matter how it's managed to twist scripture.

Now let's get something straight. I have never said that God is not sovereign, nor have I ever denied His foreknowledge. I believe in predestination "in Christ" and I do not believe in your kind of predestination which really equates to ==== predetermination.

God does not know His own thoughts ahead of Himself or ahead of time. His thoughts are not predetermined for Him so that He knows everything He will be doing or thinking ahead of time. This would not make Him God. He would have no ability to have NEW thoughts if He already new everything about His own future. The fact that God does not know in advance His own thoughts or future does not negate His omniscience. So what I try to tell people is that, if God does not know things that are unknowable, as His own future thoughts, that does not make Him less God. It makes Him more God because He can have new thoughts, He can be creative and He can also change His mind. Now that's is true Sovereignty.

 

[LaMont Cranston]

Teach, Thank you for your posts. I think that we are much more in agreement with each other than, say, HisSheep.

Bottom line, it is highly unlikely that we will ever know all of the attributes of God, but there are some things in life that will probably always be somewhat mysterious. As somebody who has an interest and appreciation of science, those things include such things as gravity, time, black holes, dark matter, dark energy, dark flow and on and on. That doesn't prevent us from believing they exist. For me, it's like that with God. There's what we know and what requires us to have faith, and I am quite happy with that arrangement.

I do claim to have any idea about what God does or doesn't know, what omniscience is about or a lot of other things. However, I do claim to have lots of ideas about what I do know and believe, based on life experiences, research and every other source I can find. All of those thing tell me that God exists, and Jesus was a very righteous being who talked about some amazing and powerful things. We have it within our power to live more glorious and elevated lives, and the way to do that is by embracing those positive thoughts, words and deeds that are manifested by love, kindness, gratitude, compassion, forgiveness and all the rest. That is what is available to us because we have free choice.

Once again, I do find the Calvinist take on our relationships with ourselves, others, Jesus and God to be quite limited and limiting. Those people who want to insist that their particular sets of beliefs are the only ones that are acceptable can maintain that position, but it just doesn't work for me. Take care!

 

[Teach]

This, to me, seems to conflict any prophecy in the Bible. For instance, what of Isaiah? What of Revelation? How would God give any of these divine messages of the future if He Himself could not foresee them? It doesn’t seem make much sense there.

Consider this instead if knows ahead of time all the things He will be doing, does He have the choice of changing His mind and not do it. In other words could God have said creation, a universe, angels, humans, nah let us forget all that and continue on as is.
According to your thinking, God sees all that in advance that He has no choice but to go through with it.

But maybe God does not see ahead of Himself, which makes sense and doesn't take away from His Godhood, but can prophecy into the future because He knows He can make it happen, He can make it come to pass.

So we know that God is Sovereign and that He reads to hearts of men and that He will even harden the hearts of men to accomplish His purposes. He knew that for Jesus to die an effectual death for us there had to be the shedding of blood (For without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins) Therefore, He is well able to orchestrate people, events, nations, whatever so that at the time of Jesus' coming the Roman empire would have crucifiction as their method of capital punishment.
Is He not capable to put the thought in the mind of a Centurion to assigned certain soldiers at the crucifiction and, since those soldiers are gamblers, put the thought in their mind to gamble for Jesus' robe, AS PROPHESIED?
Can He not put the thought in Judas' mind to betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver?
You see God can prophesy anything into the future because He is well able to make it come to pass.

But keep in mind God will never have man do anything that would jeopardize his salvation. He influences free will to bring about His purposes and His plans but not at the expense of sending people to hell.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Teach : "God does not know His own thoughts ahead of Himself or ahead of time. His thoughts are not predetermined for Him so that He knows everything He will be doing or thinking ahead of time. This would not make Him God. He would have no ability to have NEW thoughts if He already new everything about His own future. The fact that God does not know in advance His own thoughts or future does not negate His omniscience"

---------------------------------------

Hi Teach

Your comments here brings God down to the level of man. Of course God knows his own thoughts , or else He would never be able to have foreknowledge, and then by shear logic, there would be no such thing as predestination in the first place !

God does not have new thoughts ! Nor does he change His thoughts ! This would make God a liar, if your comments were true. The Word states plainly, that God is a God that changes not ! God has told us that there is going to be a new heaven and a new earth, and that he is going to make all things new. What you are suggeting, is that God can change His mind , insomuch as God does not have to keep to that which has been prophesied through His Prophets.

Your comments here are counter productive. In fact, using a biblical reference. A double minded person is unstable in all their ways.

 

[LaMont Cranston]

Mysteryman, I totally disagree that Teach's comments are counter productive. Are our conceptions of God and the teachings of Jesus subject to any interpretation, or much we accept your version of the way it has to be? I believe God exists, and I love Jesus, but I also realize that there are parts of what God is about that, most likely, always be somewhat mysterious or unanswerable. That's what faith is for.

However, having faith is not the same thing as insisting that everybody else must accept my set of beliefs. What I find to be counter productive is those people who insist that their version of Christianity is the one we must all accept...or else.