Growth Suggested Reading for Israel/Church Distinctions

[netchaplain]

To those who’ve been following the Israel/Distinction posts, I would like to wait until sometime later to reply to any more comments and questions relating to Israel/Church distinctions, because there is still much which I also need to research concerning doctrines related to this issue.

I’m going to try to wait about a week or so to allow time for us to view (study) some material I also am studying, some of which I would like to suggest to those who are interested in this issue. I think it would helpful to keep notes on questions and comments you may develop which you may want to ask one another now, or myself later. At present, I’m more in favor of the first link, but I haven’t been over either of them enough times to determine what I believe is the most probable truth, in my own opinion of-course.

I believe the Lord teaches us through one another, by His Spirit, so my earnest prayer to the Lord is that He will use everything to cause us always to desire to “reason together,” (Isa 1:18) in “the word of truth,” by His Spirit (1 Cor 2:13), ultimately resulting in the unconditional forgiveness and love to all (John 15:12), “especially unto them who are of the household of faith” (Gal 6:10).

This doesn't mean I will not reply to other unrelated posts and replies.

Thanks and God be blessed, and His guidance to us!

Suggested Reading:

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Israel/israel.html

http://www.twonewcovenants.com/covenant/covenant4.html

-NC

 

[farouk]

The writings of J N Darby and C I Scofield are helpful in this area.

Blessings.

 

[netchaplain]

Yes, there are many hard to get materials from writers (because of most being from a few centuries ago) such as you've indicated, which concentrate on this issue. Thanks for the input!

 

[farouk]

Yes, there are many hard to get materials from writers (because of most being from a few centuries ago) such as you've indicated, which concentrate on this issue. Thanks for the input!

YW; the Scofield Bible with his notes is still in print.

Darby can be gotten through various outlets also.

Blessings.

 

[Tom H]

The further you go down this path the healthier you will be as a grace believer.

CI Scofield Study Bible notes
"Law or Grace" by Dehaan
Lewis Sperry Chafer
Darby (his translation, called the "DBY" - is excellent)
Clarence Larkin - "Dispensational Truth" (drawings, notes, timelines)
"Me! A Priest?" -- Dr. David Spurbeck. (Israel "had" a priesthood. The Church "is" a priesthood.)

 

[Tom H]

I can't believe there are people looking at the two new covenants-which I think is great. Galatians 3:15 lays out in human terms that once a covenant is cut no man can add to it or remove from it. That's something we can understand. That's the nature of a covenant and that's how God works them too. Since the target recipients of the promises are different (Israel vs. the Church), and the promises (and when they're fulfilled by God) are different... there are definitely two new covenants. The differences make the difference. Since they're different, they're not the same. Israel will receive the content of their new covenant after Jacob's Trouble - at the Second Coming.

 

[gr8grace]

Distinctions Between Israel and the Church
Israel / Church
Shadow Christology/ Historical Christology
Covenants/ Baptism of the Spirit
Jewish Client Nation/ Gentile Client Nations
Old Testament Canon/ New Testament Canon
Shekinah Glory indwelt the Holy of Holies/ Every Believer indwelt by the Shekinah Glory
Limited power-1% were endued with power/ 100% Availability of divine power
Faith Rest Drill/ Filling of the Spirit
JHWH-Jehovah Elohim/ Iesou Christou-Jesus Christ
Limited spiritual gifts/ Every believer has a spiritual gift
Levitical Priesthood/ Universal Royal Priesthood
Mosaic Law/ Mystery Doctrine
Ritual Plan of God/ Protocol or Pre-Designed Plan of God
Earthly Promises/ Heavenly Citizenship
New Racial Species/ New Spiritual Species
Prophecy/ No Prophecy-Historical Trends
Visible Heroes/ Invisible Heroes
Dispensation of Extraordinary believer/ Dispensation of Ordinary believer
Incomplete Canon of Scripture/ Completed Canon of Scripture
Visible signs preceding 2nd Advent/ No visible signs preceding Rapture

 

[gr8grace]

Darby often gets the blame for "starting dispensational" teaching. He was probably the first to systematize the doctrine. However, Dispensational Ideas and beliefs go back to the early church fathers and teachers. Their teachings were "peppered" with dispensational thoughts and beliefs.

Here is another great and informative article that shows dispensational thought wayyyyyyyyy before Darby. It also shows that these early teachers made distinctions between the church and Israel.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/803995/posts

 

[Tom H]

The Apostle Paul was dispensational (Paul was the "steward" of the dispensation of the grace of God toward the Church) way before Darby.

Ephesians 3:1 - if it is so that you (grace believers in the context) have heard of the "administration (oikonomia - house rules, economy, dispensation) of that grace of God" which was "given me toward you" ... ("given me..." Paul was the steward of the "grace of God" for the Church, which is Christ's body.)

Moses was dispensational (distributor of the Mosaic Law) way before Paul. Moses was the steward of that set of household rules. Different household. Different rules.

God was dispensational way before Moses.

God does not change. Salvation from the lake of fire is always by faith, not works. God's had different rules for different groups of people, at different times, in time-space-history. Everyone clearly needs to sort the mail: the Nation of Israel is not the Church and we can't live by rules for Israel.

I don't go over to my neighbor's mailbox, read his mail, and then pretend it was written to me. I could try - but life would be pretty confusing.

Great post Jarrod.

 

[netchaplain]

At present, I find that Jeremiah 31 will be effective to the nation of Israel in general and not to the remnant Jews (i.e. the "7,000", Apostles, disciples, etc.), which will already be saved.

I also believe this is a collation with Zechariah 12:10, which collates with Revelation 1:7 (they will believe after "every eye shall see Him). This will be to "All the families that remain" (Zec 12:10).

 

[netchaplain]

It also helps to understand that the distinction Galatians 3:28 is in reference only to the call in Christ, not to posterity or physical differences. Meaning the call of salvation is no longer restricted to the Jews, but now extended to all; e.g. "the middle wall of partition," which separated the Jews and the Gentiles in the temple is removed (Eph 2:14), making all in Christ one new creature in Him, and in one another (new Jew and Gentile in Christ, not omitting posterity or gender).

Otherwise it would intend there is no more posterity of Jews or Gentiles, or male or female genders, etc. This will not apply to the Jews in the eschatological prophecies.

 

[Tom H]

I love how you're taking the time to look into it. I pondered that question 5-6 weeks ago when I wrote a short paper on two new covenants (a simple compare/contrast the "who" "what" "when"). When I ponder a question sometimes the Spirit of God bumps me into someone like you... that is looking into it. Depending on the timing of various groups of Jewish resurrections, I'm not sure if they'll need the millennial law written on their hearts. I should look at the Larkin book regarding the various resurrections of saved Jews.

I know the Church is the Church. In that realm there are no distinctions. But that is a different group that will have been raptured (or those who have passed away "in Christ" ... like the Jew Paul) and will return with Christ in a glorified resurrected body. Paul won't need the millennial law written on his heart to walk by its statues, when he returns with Christ in his own glorified resurrected body to reign with Christ. Even though he was a Jew.

But other saved Jews ... (those before the Church, and after the Church) ... will. When I looked at Jeremiah 31 I see the "nation" getting its promises of its new covenant (the millennial law/statues written on their hearts so they can walk in them) which would apply to those individuals. So, I think it would apply first to the physical Jews still alive at the second coming of their King (the millenial law, etc. so they will walk in its statues) but I would think it would also apply to the other saved Jews down through history as different groups of believing Jews are resurrected at different times after that.... according to what I've seen in Larkin's drawings. Israelology is not my strong suit. But the more we "cling" to what "is" for the Church (to believe and apply first hand)... the easier it is to have a healthy look back at the Old Testament -- those things we believe about Israel, for example, but do not apply first hand to us Church saints.

 

[Tom H]

It also helps to understand that the distinction Galatians 3:28 is in reference only to the call in Christ, not to posterity or physical differences. Meaning the call of salvation is no longer restricted to the Jews, but now extended to all; e.g. "the middle wall of partition," which separated the Jews and the Gentiles in the temple is removed (Eph 2:14), making all in Christ one new creature in Him, and in one another (new Jew and Gentile in Christ, not omitting posterity or gender). Otherwise it would intend there is no more posterity of Jews or Gentiles, or male or female genders, etc.

I certainly agree. For example, a saved (into the Church) Jewish teenager is a huios "a mature son" and a saved (into the Church) gentile adult is a huios "a mature son" ... They're both mature sons, positionally, in Christ, in the mind of God.

This will not apply to the Jews in the eschatological prophecies.

Jews saved at different points in God's program, prior to the Church and after the Church, are not in the Church, so they have a different future... with different promises. I see the nation Israel and the Church as separate entities. If a Jewish individual gets saved today, he is placed into the Church, and so he has a different future than a Jew that got saved prior to the Church's instantiation. Same would be the case for a Jew saved in God's future program after the Church has been caught away to forever be with the Lord.

 

[gr8grace]

I certainly agree. For example, a saved (into the Church) Jewish teenager is a huios "a mature son" and a saved (into the Church) gentile adult is a huios "a mature son" ... They're both mature sons, positionally, in Christ, in the mind of God.



Jews saved at different points in God's program, prior to the Church and after the Church, are not in the Church, so they have a different future... with different promises. I see the nation Israel and the Church as separate entities. If a Jewish individual gets saved today, he is placed into the Church, and so he has a different future than a Jew that got saved prior to the Church's instantiation. Same would be the case for a Jew saved in God's future program after the Church has been caught away to forever be with the Lord.

I agree Tom. From my studies, I have come to the same conclusions. OT saints/Church/Millenium Saints all have different promises and futures. All saved and wonderfully placed, just with differing ranks,rewards,"duties" and locations. Perfectly placed by our Lord.

 

[Deborah13]

Darby often gets the blame for "starting dispensational" teaching. He was probably the first to systematize the doctrine. However, Dispensational Ideas and beliefs go back to the early church fathers and teachers. Their teachings were "peppered" with dispensational thoughts and beliefs.

Here is another great and informative article that shows dispensational thought wayyyyyyyyy before Darby. It also shows that these early teachers made distinctions between the church and Israel.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/803995/posts

Hi Jarrod, It seems that there may be interest in pursuing this line of thought considering Tom's follow up post but because this is a "Focus on the Scripture" thread, it leaves those who would like to delve into some of the statements in your post and that of the link you have posted, without recourse.
If you are interested in study the thoughts presented by the "church fathers", as I would be and probably others here as well, it would be great if you would start a thread in Apologetics or even End Times were we could study it together, not as a dispute or contentious matter but for the sake of knowledge.

Blessings, Deb

 

[gr8grace]

Hello Deb,

This is gr8grace, the site would not let me in for some reason, so I went back to my old profile and it worked! I mention this because i have went through the noose of those other forums and don't like it! I am going to stay clear of those forums. I had often lost my temper and posted things that were not Christ like. Maybe in the future after I have matured a bit! Sorry Deb.

 

[Tom H]

Regardless of one's position in God's program, I know (fortunately for me) one unique promise for "in Christ ones" (a.k.a. "Christians") only is Eph 2:7, how that... "He, in the coming ages (plural) will display the riches of His grace through his kindness toward us in Christ Jesus."

Q: What is the promise?
A: That in future ages (plural) He will display the riches of His grace toward us
Q: Toward who?
A: Toward us "in Christ" Jesus ones.
Q: Is this promise for other believers down through time, in God's program?
A: It definitely doesn't say that. It says it definitely is a promise is for "in Christ" ones.
Q: "How" will He display these riches of His grace?
A: Not exactly sure. But I am sure it springs out of "His kindness."

Pretty exciting stuff for a Wednesday.

 

[netchaplain]

Jews saved at different points in God's program, prior to the Church and after the Church, are not in the Church, so they have a different future... with different promises.

I too am still researching concepts concerning this issue. I believe that the assembling of the members of the Church began with those in the OT who believed God, i.e. Abraham was in heaven (paradise) prior to Christ's coming, the 7,000, etc.

 

[Tom H]

Whomever the Spirit of God places into it -- they're the ones in it. I know the Spirit of God is "resident" on Earth in His current capacity since Pentecost and has definitely "baptized all..." (and those of us like the believers in that context) into one Body...

I don't know however, if God is putting other saved people (pre/post Pentecost-to-Rapture) "into Christ" also. I think they have a different position with different promises. E.g. the 7000 won't have glorified resurrected "Church saint" bodies at the start of the Millennial kingdom. They'll have their old bodies. Yet the Church saints that return with Christ to reign with Him will have their glorified resurrected bodies, similar to His.

The 7000 vs. you/me seem to have different destinies in the program. I don't know about the saints that were in Paradise / Abraham's bosom...seems they're different, being "pre-Pentecost"... but I don't know what Christ did with that group after His death and before His resurrection... But they're probably enjoying themselves today - wherever they're at

 

[netchaplain]

. I don't know about the saints that were in Paradise / Abraham's bosom...seems they're different, being "pre-Pentecost"... but I don't know what Christ did with that group after His death and before His resurrection... But they're probably enjoying themselves today - wherever they're at

Paradise can be collated with Heaven via 2 Cor 12:2, 4. Luke 23:43 and Revelation 2:7 also collates them, but not as clear as the first reference, because of the mention of the "third heaven." You may already know, but it has been considered (rightly so IMO) the first heaven is our atmosphere, the second is space and the third being the dwelling of the Father and the Son.