Suicide without a gun...

[follower of Christ]

Do Gun Control Activists Pad Gun Death Statistics?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,113094,00.html
Wednesday, March 03, 2004

By Wendy McElroy


Last week’s release of police documents and evidence on the April, 1999, Columbine school shootings has sparked many questions — not only on the specifics of Columbine but also on the general issue of guns.

The answers are unsatisfying on all counts.

Take, for example, the issue of how many children die each year in gun-related incidents. That question has been prompted not just by the new Columbine evidence, but by the impending Million Mom March on Washington, D.C., planned for Mother’s Day.

The first anti-gun MMM in 2000 attempted to redirect the focus of Mother’s Day from flowers and card giving to the gun deaths of children. The 2004 event continues this focus as its press release reminds us, "[W]ith memories of the horrible events at Columbine High School … people gathered [in 2000] on the Mall in Washington, D.C., to demand saner gun policies." The release quotes Mary Leigh Blek, the "president emeritus" of MMM, as saying that almost 14,000 children "have died from gun violence" since "our last march."
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Where does that figure come from?

To begin with, Blek is probably referring to the 2000 MMM event. (In 2001, only about 100 people participated and the event is now virtually ignored.) This means she is stating that almost 14,000 children died from gun violence between 2000 and 2004. The figure is almost certainly an extrapolation from prior data.

The definitive source for data on injury-death in America, including gun deaths, is the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). Taking relevant data for 2001, the latest year available, and multiplying the results by four should provide a figure close to 14,000.

During 2001, the CDC reported a total of 157,078 injury-deaths. On their interactive Web site, if you click "Firearm" under "Cause of Injury," the figure becomes 29,573. For deaths in children, click on <1 as the lowest in the age range and 17 as the highest. Also select the "No Age-Adjusting Requested" option. The figure becomes 1,433. Multiplied by four, this is 5,732, or roughly 40 percent of what MMM asserts.

The 5,732 includes at least two categories of death that do not clearly belong because they do not clearly support MMM’s anti-gun arguments. That is to say, MMM’s use of death statistics coupled with calls for legislative control as a "solution" unmistakably implies that the cited deaths could have been prevented by gun control. It is misleading, therefore, to include deaths that would probably have occurred whether gun laws and, in some cases, whether guns themselves — were present.

Maria Heil of the pro-gun Second Amendment Sisters comments on one of the misleading categories: "They [MMM] are not upfront that over half of those deaths are suicides. Suicide is not committed because there is a gun. Studies show that our suicide rate is on par with other industrialized nations, including ones with very strictly regulated guns."

Guns are merely one of many methods available.

The 5,732 also includes deaths that result from gang activity in which the guns are usually illegal. These deaths would not have been prevented by gun control any more than gang members’ drug use is prevented by drug laws.

The honest question for anti-gun advocates is, how many children’s deaths were "caused" by a lack of gun control?

The easiest way to reduce both suicides and gang deaths from swelling that answer is to eliminate teenagers from the data; both suicide and gang membership are overwhelmingly teen rather than "child" phenomena.

(Moreover, "child" traditionally refers to someone who is pre-pubescent, pre-teen. That’s the image invoked by MMM’s references to "children" and to "playgrounds.")

Changing the age parameters on the CDC site to register the gun deaths of children between <1 and 12 years old renders the number, 223 for 2001. Multiplied by four, this becomes 892 or about 6 percent of MMM’s asserted figure. Anti-gun advocates should be stating that, between 2000 and 2004, the gun deaths of 892 children could have been avoided through gun control or prohibition. With valid statistics that are properly used, real debate could then begin.

The figure of 14,000 child gun deaths closes off the possibility of honest debate. Indeed, the only way to arrive at that number at the CDC site is to include suicides and gang-related deaths, and to define a child as "anyone under the age of 21." In short, MMM has padded the statistics.

The death of any child is tragic and should not be diminished, but neither should it be used to political advantage. I believe this is what MMM is doing.

MMM hopes to create a groundswell of public outrage against guns. But, MMM should reconsider the inflation and skewing of statistics on dead children. As a strategy, it looks cruel and heartless and could easily backfire.

Wendy McElroy is the editor of ifeminists.com and a research fellow for The Independent Institute in Oakland, Calif. She is the author and editor of many books and articles, including the new book, "Liberty for Women: Freedom and Feminism in the 21st Century" (Ivan R. Dee/Independent Institute, 2002). She lives with her husband in Canada.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,113094,00.html

 

[follower of Christ]

moved ahead with some additions.

 

[follower of Christ]

While rates of suicide using guns have decreased in recent years, suicide by hanging and exhaust gas have increased. Firearms suicides are more common in rural areas. The vast majority of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander suicides are by hanging or firearms.

http://www.wesleymission.org.au/publica ... uicide.htm

 

[Drew]

Suicide and Guns

1.0
Japan
Japans Gun FREE Society and is horrible SUICIDE rates prove that suicide ISNT slowed by removing guns...

Gun control in Japan is the most stringent in the democratic world.
The weapons law begins by stating 'No-one shall possess a fire-arm or fire-arms or a sword or swords', and very few exceptions are allowed.[3] Gun ownership is minuscule, and so is gun crime. As gun crime in other nations increases, many advocates of gun control urge that Japan's gun control policy be imitated.[4]

http://www.davekopel.com/2a/lawrev/japa ... ontrol.htm

And yet Japan has a higher suicide rate than the USA...

Not an argument for denying a link between gun laws and suicide within the same country.

The reader is being bombarded with so much data that it is easy to forget what constitutes good reasoning and what does not.

And all this data about how suicide rates are higher in countries which control guns - like Japan - is, of course, a spectacular and time-consuming exercise in missing the point.

When once compares suicide rates in different countries, you are dealing with a wide range of other variables that differ across the countries and may be responsible for differing levels of suicide.

The argument you are being given is like this one: "Americans eat less fat than the French and yet have higher rates of heart disease, therefore encounraging Americans to eat less fat will not reduce heart disease".

The problem, of course, is that there are other variables at work here - the French may be lessed stress, less obese, whatever. Instead of comparing dissimilar societies to one another, the proper question to ask is this: "In the context of the USA alone, would reducing fat result in a reduction in heart disease?"

Likewise, with respect to the matter at issue, the proper question to ask is: "In the context of the USA alone, would gun control reduce suicide?"

Until we ask the right questions, one can be drowned in data that is not even addressing the right question.

 

[follower of Christ]

Suicide and Guns

1.0
Japan
Japans Gun FREE Society and is horrible SUICIDE rates prove that suicide ISNT slowed by removing guns...

Gun control in Japan is the most stringent in the democratic world.
The weapons law begins by stating 'No-one shall possess a fire-arm or fire-arms or a sword or swords', and very few exceptions are allowed.[3] Gun ownership is minuscule, and so is gun crime. As gun crime in other nations increases, many advocates of gun control urge that Japan's gun control policy be imitated.[4]

http://www.davekopel.com/2a/lawrev/japa ... ontrol.htm

And yet Japan has a higher suicide rate than the USA...

Why So Many Suicides in Japan?It's the economy, stupid. And the health-care system. And the religious beliefs. And the …
By Christopher BeamPosted Thursday, May 31, 2007, at 6:39 PM ET


Japan's agriculture minister hanged himself Monday amid allegations of bid-rigging and padding government expenses. The following day, an executive allegedly linked to one of the scams leapt to his death. In 2005, 32,552 people killed themselves in Japan—one of the highest suicide rates among industrialized nations. Why are there so many suicides in Japan?

There's no single factor, but experts point to a combination of economic woes, poor mental-health resources, lack of religious prohibition, and cultural acceptance of the practice.* The economic recession that hit in the late 1990s seemed to increase the number of suicides, which jumped by 35 percent in 1998. Japan's high-interest loan system and historically strict bankruptcy laws may have contributed to this effect. But the Japanese suicide rate remains elevated, even though the economy has since recovered. Even before the recession, the rate was already a third higher than that of the United States. (Not that Japan is setting any records: Hungary, Estonia, and Latvia, among others, have more suicides per capita than Japan.)

Japan has a very strict gun control law, and only 0.3% of suicide victims use guns (24). Of those, most are police officers, soldiers, and criminals. In Japan, however, we see a recent example of a different suicide means restriction, involving paraquat. Between 1984 and 1985, the number of deaths in Japan that resulted from drinking the poisonous paraquat increased dramatically from 594 to 1021. Among the 1021 deaths in 1985, 96.5% were suicides (25). One possible reason for this sharp increase is that paraquat was used in a series of indiscriminate killings wherein victims received contaminated soft drinks from vending machines: in 1985, 17 innocent people were killed. The mass media reported these criminal acts sensationally, and it became widely known that paraquat was extremely lethal. This may have made it attractive as a means of suicide. ...



...Since hanging has always been available as a means of suicide, increased access cannot account for the changes. Nevertheless, it is now the leading method of suicide in young people, accounting for 36.1% and 36.8% of young male and female suicides respectively in Australia in 1994 (27).



http://ww1.cpa-apc.org:8080/publication ... eview4.asp

Canada

As for the death rate from firearms accidents, Canada continued to enjoy a decline that had begun in 1971.

Suicides involving firearms fell noticeably after 1978, reversing the previous trend. The overall suicide rate, however, did not drop, which leads to the inference that the availability of particular weapons has no impact on a nation's suicide rate. America's suicide rate, already slighter lower than Canada's, declined some more. In short, the evidence indicates that Canada's handgun crackdown/long gun licensing had little effect on crime or suicide.

http://www.davekopel.com/2a/Mags/The-Fa ... ontrol.htm

2.0

Controversy has also swirled around Dr. Kellerman's claim that gun availability increases the risk of suicide. Dr. Faria says "the overwhelming available evidence compiled from the psychiatric literature is that untreated or poorly managed depression is the real culprit behind high rates of suicide."

Backing this up is the observation that countries with strict gun control laws and low rates of firearm availability -- such as Japan, Germany and the Scandinavian countries -- have suicide rates that are 2 time to 3 times higher than for the U.S. In these countries, people simply substitute for guns other suicide methods such as Hara-Kiri, carbon monoxide suffocation, hanging, or chemical poisoning.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,7217,00.html

2.1

Guns and suicide: possible effects of some specific legislation

CL Rich, JG Young, RC Fowler, J Wagner and NA Black
Department of Psychiatry, University of California, San Diego.

The authors describe suicide rates in Toronto and Ontario and methods used for suicide in Toronto for 5 years before and after enactment of Canadian gun control legislation in 1978. They also present data from San Diego, Calif., where state laws attempt to limit access to guns by certain psychiatric patients. Both sets of data indicate that gun control legislation may have led to decreased use of guns by suicidal men, but the difference was apparently offset by an increase in suicide by leaping. In the case of men using guns for suicide, these data support a hypothesis of substitution of suicide method.

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/con ... /147/3/342

2.2

"While gun-related suicides were reduced by Canada's gun control legislation of 1978, the overall suicide rate did not go down at all: the gun-related suicides were replaced 100% by an increase in other types of suicide -- mostly jumping off bridges"

"The authors describe suicide rates in Toronto and Ontario and methods used for suicide in Toronto for 5 years before and after enactment of Canadian gun control legislation in 1978. They also present data from San Diego, Calif., where state laws attempt to limit access to guns by certain psychiatric patients. Both sets of data indicate that gun control legislation may have led to decreased use of guns by suicidal men, but the difference was apparently offset by an increase in suicide by leaping.
In the case of men using guns for suicide, these data support a hypothesis of substitution of suicide method."

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/suicide.html

 

[Drew]

Just out of curiosity, is there anyone out there reading this thread other an FoC, me, and the poor moderator who has to police the thread?

 

[Dude named Louis]

I pop in now and then but I'm really out of my element so I haven't posted. I never really liked guns, but my sons have taken an interest in paintball and air soft so I have softened toward them a bit.

 

[LostSoul]

Unfortunately, suicide is not something that is unfamiliar or without relation to me. During my years as a high school student, someone I greatly admired took her life. The method chosen: Pills. Yes, over the counter medication or prescription of which a doctor had prescribed to her. Why? That in itself was a matter of contraversy.

That one death nearly led to a chain of suicide attempts, one of which involved another one of my closest friends who chose to copy the form of death selected by the deceased.

So while it is true a number of individuals choose to end their life by the gun.....many from what I have come to know personally prefer the use of medication.

This is not an attempt on my part to say that guns are not lethal, or amazing tools of which we as human beings use. Rather that it is the motive or intention of the person.....not the tool being used that is the issue.....too many times it is said how guns are the problem...but are they? What about the people who have them and use them for nothing short of cruel purposes? Which naturally is not the case for every person who owns one.

In my own opinion that is the most common made error in judgement in today's society....that the tool is the issue. If we are to have this mind set on guns, it should be said the same of over the counter perscriptions that tend to be abused, alcohol which in the end results in a number of the drunk driver killings that occur on a daily basis, etc. We seem to forget that it is the CHOICE of the PERSON, NOT the device itself that brings about the things that of which transpire. Then...these are only the ramblings of an idiot girl who has much still yet to learn...so take them as you see fit to.

 

[John]

Just out of curiosity, is there anyone out there reading this thread other an FoC, me, and the poor moderator who has to police the thread?

I've been tagging along.

 

[follower of Christ]

Gun suicides outnumber gun homicides. In 1999, there were 16,599 gun suicides compared to 10,828 firearm homicides (National Center for Injury Prevention and Control). Guns were the most common method of suicide (57% in 1999).

If we could magically make all guns disappear, would the number of suicides decrease? Probably not. Excerpted from Dr. Gary Kleck's, Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control (p 285, Walter de Gruyter, Inc., New York 1997):

The full body of relevant studies indicates that firearm availability measures are significantly and positively associated with rates of firearm suicide, but have no significant association with rates of total suicide.

Of thirteen studies, nine found a significant association between gun levels and rates of gun suicide, but only one found a significant association between gun levels and rates of total suicides. The only study to find a measure of "gun availability" significantly associated with total suicide...used a measure of gun availability known to be invalid.

This pattern of results supports the view that where guns are less common, there is complete substitution of other methods of suicide, and that, while gun levels influence the choice of suicide method, they have no effect on the number of people who die in suicides.

As further evidence that gun ownership is not correlated with total suicide rates see international violent death rate table. For example, Japan, where gun ownership is extremely low (less than 1% of households), total suicide is higher than in a high-gun ownership country like the United States.

From 1972 to 1995 the per capita gun stock in the U. S. increased by more than 50%. Gary Kleck in Targeting Guns (p 265) comments on this huge increase: "This change might be viewed as a sort of inadvertent natural experiment, in which Americans launched a massive and unprecedented civilian armaments program, probably the largest in world history. During this same period, the U.S. suicide rate was virtually constant, fluctuating only slightly within the narrow range from 11.8 to 13.0 suicides per 100,000 population...At most...this huge increase in the gun stock might have caused a mild increase in the percentage of suicides committed with guns, which shifted from 53.3 in 1972 to 60.3 in 1994, and thus a mild corresponding increase in the gun suicide rate." (See gun supply chart).

In 1972 the suicide rate was 11.9 per 100,000. After this "arms build-up" the total suicide rate remained unchanged at 11.9 in 1995.

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvsuic.html

 

[Drew]

In my own opinion that is the most common made error in judgement in today's society....that the tool is the issue.

Despite the common sense appeal of what you say, common sense is not a reliable guide in all cases.

What if the following things were all true:

1. The only ways to kill yourself were by shooting yourself or climbing to the top of a cliff and jumping;
2. 50 % of suicidal thoughts were "transitory" - the desire to commit suicide only lasts, say, 5 minutes.
3. It takes one minute to grab a gun and shoot yourself, while it takes 10 minutes to climb the cliff.

Do I need to complete the argument? Well, in such an admittedly hypothetical scenario, getting rid of the gun as a "tool" would substantially reduce the suicide rate. This is because, in the absence of a gun, many people would change their minds during their march up the hill to the cliff.

So you see, the tool can indeed be a big part of the problem.

Many of the arguments my opponent is putting forth consist in appeals to common sense that, when analzed and thought through, do not really stand up.

 

[handy]

Yes, I've checked in as well. To be honest with both Drew and FofC, y'all are following the same arguments in different threads, but then, the two of you are probably very aware of that.

Regarding guns and their use and misuse: There is no way of getting around the fact that this is an issue of Christian liberty. There are no commandments that outright tell us that we are NOT to protect ourselves using weaponry. Jesus used the imagery of someone striking one cheek in order to tell us what the loving response to those who would strike us is, but then Jesus also didn't dissuade at least one of his disciples from arming himself before going out to Gethsemane. I see no commandment in scriptures that we are not to defend ourselves if our life, or the lives of loved ones are at stake. It would be up to the individual Christian and the Holy Spirit if one is being called to arms or to martyrdom. Both are acts of courage and neither should be judged.

As far as suicide itself is concerned: suicide preceded guns and will still continue on even if every gun is destroyed. Suicide is rarely an act of impulsive convenience. (I am differentiating between suicide attempts and actual suicides. A lot of folks attempt suicide with no real desire to kill themselves.)

That said, if I was in a situation where someone went berserk and started killing others, which can happen if one happens to be renting a Penske truck or having Thanksgiving Day dinner with the family, I'd rather face someone armed with the Turkey carving knife than with an AK-47.

 

[follower of Christ]

I pop in now and then but I'm really out of my element so I haven't posted. I never really liked guns, but my sons have taken an interest in paintball and air soft so I have softened toward them a bit.

It does seem to be one of those hobbies one either likes or doesnt.
I have friends who love guns and shooting, and some who have shot my guns once and refused to do it again.
Having been around guns since childhood I dont think theyd bother me much even if I werent overly interested in them.

Maybe sometime try going shooting with someone you know to a range and see if you like it ?

 

[follower of Christ]

In my own opinion that is the most common made error in judgement in today's society....that the tool is the issue. If we are to have this mind set on guns, it should be said the same of over the counter perscriptions that tend to be abused, alcohol which in the end results in a number of the drunk driver killings that occur on a daily basis, etc. We seem to forget that it is the CHOICE of the PERSON, NOT the device itself that brings about the things that of which transpire. Then...these are only the ramblings of an idiot girl who has much still yet to learn...so take them as you see fit to.

Agreed.
Some people spend FAR too much time blaming the bridge that the man jumped from instead of trying to find a way to help the man himself.
...

 

[Drew]

Yes, I've checked in as well. To be honest with both Drew and FofC, y'all are following the same arguments in different threads, but then, the two of you are probably very aware of that.

Indeed.

Regarding guns and their use and misuse: There is no way of getting around the fact that this is an issue of Christian liberty. There are no commandments that outright tell us that we are NOT to protect ourselves using weaponry.

I disagree. We are told to love our enemies. Jesus did not particularly add exceptions. And using a gun to kill someone is not "loving" that person.

Jesus used the imagery of someone striking one cheek in order to tell us what the loving response to those who would strike us is, but then Jesus also didn't dissuade at least one of his disciples from arming himself before going out to Gethsemane.

This has been repeatedly addressed. As Jesus Himself explcitly states, the arming was done very specifically to make Himself appear to be one of a band of revolutionaries. Why people do not accept what Jesus says, and super-impose their own interpretation, shows that they should re-think their exegetical method.

Even though I disagree with you on a number of points, I do appreciate your answering my question.

 

[Free]

In my own opinion that is the most common made error in judgement in today's society....that the tool is the issue. If we are to have this mind set on guns, it should be said the same of over the counter perscriptions that tend to be abused, alcohol which in the end results in a number of the drunk driver killings that occur on a daily basis, etc. We seem to forget that it is the CHOICE of the PERSON, NOT the device itself that brings about the things that of which transpire. Then...these are only the ramblings of an idiot girl who has much still yet to learn...so take them as you see fit to.

Agreed.
Some people spend FAR too much time blaming the bridge that the man jumped from instead of trying to find a way to help the man himself.
...

A bridge is one thing; a gun is quite something else.

 

[follower of Christ]

A bridge is one thing; a gun is quite something else.

Only in your mind, Free, and only because of YOUR views.
To the suicidal person they are the exactly the same....a method to take ones life.

 

[Dude named Louis]

[quote="Dude named Louis":8si28t1b]I pop in now and then but I'm really out of my element so I haven't posted. I never really liked guns, but my sons have taken an interest in paintball and air soft so I have softened toward them a bit.

It does seem to be one of those hobbies one either likes or doesnt.
I have friends who love guns and shooting, and some who have shot my guns once and refused to do it again.
Having been around guns since childhood I dont think theyd bother me much even if I werent overly interested in them.

Maybe sometime try going shooting with someone you know to a range and see if you like it ? [/quote:8si28t1b]

Yeah, I have gone paintballing and target shooting (airsoft) with my sons and it is fun. The real guns are a bit of a jump for me at this point, but as a sport of skill I'm cool with it. I also like homemade blowguns (a hobby I developed while at art school). :D

 

[follower of Christ]

[quote:2oeiny3r].
Half of Gun Deaths Are Suicides
Tuesday July 1, 2008

Research shows that surprisingly often gun deaths are self-inflicted.

In 2005, the most recent year for which statistics are available from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), suicides accounted for 55% of the nation's nearly 31,000 firearm deaths.

In the same year, 40% of deaths were homicides, 3% were accidents and the remaining 2% were "legal killings", such as when police officers do the shooting in the course of duty.

Nor was there anything unique about that particular year. Gun-related have suicides outnumbered firearm homicides and accidents for 20 of the last 25 years, according to CDC statistics.

Last week, opponents of the Supreme Court's recent landmark ruling on gun ownership had used these statistics and others in an attempt to block the ruling, but were unsuccessful.

Apparently HALF of suicides are with a gun....leaving the REST to have turned to OTHER means when they dont have a gun.
A person who WANTS to die WILL find a way.
[/quote:2oeiny3r]
.

 

[follower of Christ]

We would also have to take into account the fact that nearly all people who commit suicide using a gun would simply commit suicide in some other way if guns were not available (proven fact) and that many people who are murdered with a gun would simply be murdered in another way if guns were not available. That is, the current gun murders and gun suicides would not "go away" if guns went away, they would just convert to some other kinds of murder and suicide.

http://www.gunsandcrime.org/sbcoalin.html